danmcq

Hi itzazu2u, The posts are similar. However, the example you used, is FOR the Handicapped person or for the Tenants living in the building burning downs Convenience and Safety, not the Owners. My example is directly the opposite. DD was stating the Convenience was for the Owner, not the Bird. The Clipping is for the birds safety, not convenience. Also, not clipping can be for the Birds safety, as in Talons case of Cat attack danger in the home.

Talon, My position was not against leaving your bird flighted. It is against convenience equalling safety. I agree with your decision 100%. :-) It is for your birds safety, that you let Talon become flighted. I do not think clipped or unclipped is a bad decision. I think it is the responsibility of each owner to determine which is the safest for the environment the bird lives. It is different from household to household. Since they are in an unnatural environment and do not know any of the Dangers that exist. The Owner and domesticator must make that choice based on sound reasoning and knowledge for the birds safety.

Your Parrots would be happiest where you and guests are the most. Being isolated in a bedroom would not be the ideal situation for these intelligent, social and attention seeking Parrots. When you say you moved the "Kids", do you mean the Parrots? I ask, due to your stating you are the only Human there. At any rate, they will be happiest where you are visible the most.

Safety does not equal convenience. The logic is flawed, in demanding that ALL acquiesce to your conclusion of it all being reduced to convenience. What about monetary,structural, handicapped persons etc. that have limited resources or capabilities? Most individuals have one of these limitations and therefore it is not due to convenience. Everyone must decide individually if clipping is necessary or not for their Parrot's safety. Anyone allowing a bird to remain unclipped in an unsafe environment, I would consider as an irresponsible owner. The life of the bird is in the owners hands. If anyone leaves their bird flighted and it flies into a boiling pot, window, wall or out the door into the Talons of a Raptor, is responsible for that birds untimely death due to negligence.

My Dayo is 4 1/2 Months old and Down/Baby fluff comes out through out each day. Just a down feather here and there through out the day. It seems to be a nautal process. Also, it is starting to cool down now in California to around 55 in the morning. So I'll watch for an increase in over the next few days.

You could also try just offering an abundance of of veggies, fruits etc. in separate bowls that your Grey could pick at out of curiosity. Then note what he/she likes or dis-likes. Also, I have noticed some days the veggies and fruits I have placed in the cage are not touched and the seed or 7 bean and veggie mix are consumed. They seem to bounce back and forth from day to day on what they consume. Hope this helps by throwing some ideas at you. :-)

LOL - Good one Joe :-)

Hi All, Since we have finally had a few real debates start on this Forum. Which are healthy and cerebrally challenging. I thought I would just post some important ideas and information to consider. :-) Tips for debating: Avoid the use of Never. Avoid the use of Always. Refrain from saying you are wrong. You can say your idea is mistaken. Don't disagree with obvious truths. Attack the idea not the person. Use many rather than most. Avoid exaggeration. Use some rather than many. The use of "often" allows for exceptions. The use of "generally" allows for exceptions. Quote sources and numbers. If it is just an opinion, admit it. Do not present opinion as facts. Smile when disagreeing. :-) Stress the positive. You do not need to win every battle to win the war. Concede minor or trivial points. Avoid bickering, quarreling, and wrangling. Watch your tone of voice. Don't win a debate and lose a friend. Keep your perspective - You're just debating. Some Tips on what a disruptor may do or just some comical tips for you to use :-) Turn someone’s generality into an absolute. For example, if someone makes a general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some people are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas is stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.) Turn someone’s factual statements into implied preferences. For example, if someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the person who said it of siding with pedophiles. Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if someone says that Ghandi didn’t eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that cows deserve equal billing with Gandhi. Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can’t eat rocks, accuse the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can’t eat. Bonus points for arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough. Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that he can run a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that no one can hold his breath that long. Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is. Use the intellectual laziness card. For example, if someone says that ice is cold, recommend that he take graduate courses in chemistry and meteorology before jumping to stupid conclusions that display a complete ignorance of the complexity of ice. Remember, we are friends on this forum due to the commonality of our Greys. We all hold deeply rooted opinions and beliefs. If you do not want to debate, then don't. If you don't like the way a debate is going. Stop reading it. Just read the multitude of other topics on this forum. Peace - <br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2007/09/16 16:01

One other comment on the Word "Domesticated". Please do not use "Natural Instinct" to determine IF something is Domesticated or not. All life has Natural Instinct and will use it without needing to be taught or trained how and when to use it. It just "Happens". :-) The Authors of the link DRSpock provided, are using "Natural Instinct" as their "Basis" for determining Domestication. Which is completely inappropriate.

Welcome AGreyyBoy!! Thanks for joining our forum. Browse, read and learn from the multitude of topics contained on this forum. Ask all the questions you have. We have many highly experienced members here that love to help. We look forward to hearing more from you!!! :-)

We have "Culture"? Thanks DD ;-)

I think there is a mix up on "Whom" may be considered a "Troll". The reference Talon (for example) was referring to, is the great debates that started and some people felt it may be Troll activity. Which it is not. The person you are talking about Trina, is a case you should and did (I think) notify an Admin or Mod about, I hope. It is always good practice, to never give out or post your personal email or IM screen name to a Forum. :-) I am sorry to hear you are being harassed by someone. That is detestable!!

I agree with DD and CD on the value of debates. They make us move out of our comfort zone, analyze what we believe as "Fact" (A fact is nothing more than something two or more people agree upon), search our soul, ulterior motives, prejudices, assumptions and many other things. Debates are how we learn and grow. Remember the debates of childhood? :-)

The proper use and meaning of our "Words" are based upon the definition(s) of them historically and through present day as found in the Dictionary. The definition of Domesticated still stands. The authors of the Article provided in the link, build a Case based upon the assumption that Parrots behaviour in captivity illustrates they are wild. The questionable facts they provide to prove this is comparing them to Dogs and Cats. This is flawed reasoning. Dogs and Cats still live in the Wild. Although, that fact has nothing to do with whether the animal or bird you have is "Domesticated" or not. Dogs and Cats become bored too and if given the chance will bolt out the door or gate when given the chance and take off. Dogs will run in Packs (like birds flock) together and establish a hierarchy starting from the "Alpha" down. Dogs will run, hunt, breed and flourish in the Wild. Life in captivity for them is of pale comparison to that in the Wild watching them frolic, play, dig, dig holes as the safe birthing place for their young and then teach to them way of the Dog as the puppies grow. So now, these Authors that have been quoted, are trying to tell me Dogs and Cats aren't Domesticated? Based upon their "Reasoning" of why THEY don't think a Parrot is Domesticated. They also just ruled out the Dog and Cat as well. If you own a Parrot Bred in captivity, hand-fed, socialized with Humans and is dependent upon Humans. It IS Domesticated by definition. Perhaps, if you would like we could explore the levels of Domestication. Such as Selective Breeding. :-) The scientific community conducts great debates on levels of Domestication.

LOL Joe - YOur not that much older than I and Judy knows it. :-) Thats why she caled me on it. Why do you wish you never left NY? You live in Florida now. The retirement dream state of many...though not mine. Culture, Family, Memories Etc?

One additional thing I have never seen posted before regarding wellness visits. My Avian Vet requested when I brought Dayo in. To bring, bottom Paper, Bowls and Toys. This is due to her thoroughness in examination that she also checks the stools and other items for Bacterial Counts and types. Has any of your Vet's requested this? I find it VERY comforting to know how thorough she is. :-) Others may want to take along these itms on their next Avian Vet visit.

Thanks for the early historical meaning of the word David. :-) Egyptians actually "Domesticated" Parrots and other animals also 3000 Years ago.

David - Thank You :-)

Thats Great News Toni!! I know your enjoying your new baby, so will wait a few days before asking you to post some information and photo's of his grand homecoming. :-) CheerS!!!

David, You know as well as I, that you are creating Paradoxes around each persons answer that defies logic. The demand for anyone to admit their choice was of "Convenience", is illogical in most their cases and would be a lie for them to acquiesce into such a statement. Convenience does not equal Safety. Safety equals a Grey living with the least amount of threat to it's health or very life. The number one reason given by the majority of Wing Clippers was safety for their Parrot. The Topic is regarding the Flaws in the statements and Logic used by extremists. It is not about why a person chose to Clip their Parrot. Lets stay on Topic and stop answering answers with questions, which I KNOW you hate. :-)

David, I researched Greys, Amazons and Macaws for 9 months before deciding to purchase one from a Breeder that was Hand-fed and well socialized. The reason I came to this decision, is because I started looking at and reading about the Parrots available on lists at all the Parrot Rescues within 200 miles of me. After reading the history and problems each of these unfortunate creatures had, and each species characteristics. I knew I did not have the experience and knowledge it would take to give them a happy and permanent home. I would have become another person taking their new Parrot home only to find the need to return it because I could not overcome or even lessen their issues with the limitations I had. I have been rescuing Dobermans for 10 years now. When our first Doberman died of Cancer at 6 years old. My wife and I decided to obtain a new one after a few Months of mourning. In performing Internet searches for a Puppy, we also came across rescues and decided that was the way to go. We knew we had the experience, knowledge and most importantly Love for the Breed to start rescuing and rehabilitating them. For the last ten years we have not even considered a new puppy due to the overwhelming need of Homes for these special Dogs. You are asking critical questions regarding Parrot Care and Ownership. You are also searching your soul to depths most don't. Once you have the experience of caring for your new Grey and nurturing him to adulthood, you will have the knowledge and experience to take on rescues successfully. So don't feel bad, you are on the Path!! :-) Thanks for the beautiful Poem!!!

Yes LMG they do :-) Tari - The very extensive information you posted is great. I am certain MANY lurking and reading will find their answers regarding the health of their Greys in it VERY useful!!

Thanks Tari, I have also written and posted in the FAQ section on this website that lists all of this in the article titled "When should a Wellness check be performed. :laugh:

Rambo, You seem to postulate many suppositions with out any substantiating facts. How did you discover the Acronym of Alex equaling "Avian Lab Experiment"? The video portrays a highly intelligent Alex with people surrounding him that love him and are interested in him. If you note the body language of Alex, he is intrigued with what is going on and highly interactive. As I am sure you know, if a Grey does not like what's going on, they will definitely let you know. So far, I personally do not see any compelling evidence for your allegations.

I agree with you both, based upon Your choosing the safest path for your Parrots based upon their living environment. The reason I started this topic, was to delineate between extremism versus sound reasoning and logic, based upon individuals circumstances. Please note that I edited the Topic Header and a couple of sentences. I did this because I felt the Topic and statements may have been unclear, as to the intent and purpose of this Topic.