Dave007

Concerning age, those figures in your post were already spoken about here a few times on this forum. thru the years. Actually, I'm the one that spoke about them and people didn't wanna believe me. That's because I wasn't a scientist or specialist stuying in fancy schools.They became indignant. They insisted that only info that was read in books was the correct info. Somestimes reading can be very misleading. That's been proven over and over and over again. I didn't need any official literature to come to that conclusion.. Average spans of much animal life in the wild can be easily found and I'm into doing just that---checking out and studying animal life and not just birds and not just their ages and I've been doing it a long time. I've spoken about bird talking--learning how to talk in their language. People don't have the time or talent to do it. They became indignant. To many people.The spoken human word is what remains supreme. That's a lot of BS.

Pop Bottle Trap – Take an narrow-necked, empty pop bottle and fill it part way with fruit juice, beer, soda, V8, or apple cider. Add a few drops of dish soap and then place it in the area of infestation. The fruit flies will enter the bottle and become trapped when they attempt to lay eggs in the liquid. Bowl Trap – Take a bowl of any size and cover the bottom with fruit juice, beer, soda, V8, or apple cider.Add a few drops of dish soap and then cover it’s top with saran wrap. Finally, poke 12-16 holes in it with a pin and place in the area of infestation. The fruit flies will be attracted into the bowl by the bait and will be unable to get back out.

This situation has been talked about in the past but I'll put in a refresher course. When feathers are in a bad condition they will grow back but they'll grow back unevefully. When this happens, the newer feathers growing back interfere with other feathers that are there or who are also growing back. The growing feathers no matter where thay are will pinch and push into areas where the underneath feathers should be there but aren't. This irritation causes the bird to start pulling out new growth feathers all over again in order to avoid discomfort. Many times, the bird is back to square one. It's only when the proper feathers are growing on top or under established feathers that the new growth will succeed. All the feathers will be in their proper place---fight feathers on top of covert feathers etc etc. Tail feathers are no exeption to the rule. When they grow back they may come back unevenly. It's not uncommon to find blood spots in different areas when all of this uneven plucking/chewing is going on. It's also not uncommon to find bald, irritated and raw areas caused by intense ppullung which comes from discomfort. Just because feathers are growing back, that doesn't mean that the regrowing feathers are in the right place. Frustration causes plucking. This whole process may take quite a while to be finally successful but there's nothing that can be done as far as which feathers grow out first. It all depends on uneven the feathers are in when the clipping happens. Patience is needed. As far as bad small bald spots go, the only thing that can be done is putting on a salve to cover those bald spots. This also applies to bloody areas arounf flight feathers, tail feathers Aloe Vera Gel is a great item to use. It's not toxic. People also use it for dry cracked skin. It can be purchased in pharmacies. sometimes in large supermarkets that have a drug area. Many people can talk about their situations concerning their bird's plucking and many of those people will also say that sadly the whole process took quite a while to finally be successful. This is why Dan and I are advocates of the no clipping experience which is causes very bad feather experiences with birds who have plucking/chewing problem. I doubt that he or I will change our minds BUT only Dan can speak for himself. Remmber the important things here---patience, knowing it may take a long time until success occurs and not putting any time limits concerning when that success will happen.

First off, the most important thing is to realize that the species/sub species that you own are naturally jealous, possesive and would be much happier if they had their own territory. Many people who have 2 greys would be extremely happy if their birds *tolerated* each other. Many times, that doesn't happen. Many won't share a playstand and definitely not wanna share a cage. They don't like sharing food with anyone including people. Many people can't take food bowls out of a cage without the bird trying to bite. Greys feel that what's theirs is theirs. There's no way for 2 birds to bond or be friendly with each other unless they want to. People have nothing to do with that. Each bird has their own personality. As far as 2 birds in one cage-----because of the personality of greys, putting 2 in one cage means that both are stuck with each other when the biting,nipping begins. Neither can get away. Because they are greys, each needs their own cage. One thing you can do is to buy a double cage that has a divider in it. But you should know that greys need a certain amount of space concerning the cage. Small cages just aren't good for them. The things you'd like to achieve many be good for other species but not greys.

Don't watch it. I know you from the past. But you can't compare that documentary with the life of birds in captivity. It's a whole different thing. There's hundreds of species of birds that can't be kept in captivity including many species of parrots. There's only a few that can be kept in captivity and be happy as long as people don't decide to look at the bird as a domestic animal. The shape that captive birds are in has to do with the people who deal with them in so many aspects.

I saw the documentary last week. It was a sad thing concerning the trainer who died. I've been against all the animals that used to be kept in captivety from many years ago. Elephants, all wild cats, bears, monkeys. All of that changed when the big major zoos started to build huge beautiful habitats for the different animals and to this day, those animals are happy. The San Diego zoo, The Bronx Zoo, The Philidelphia zoo plus others were involved. I can remember watching them build up the monkey habitat in the Bronx Zoo---Graat Apes/monkey habitat---$ 8 million dollars--3 yrs to do it. The bird santuary--$2 million--2 yrs to complete. The forest habitat--$7 million--5 yrs to complete. After the blackfish documentary, the commentator interviewed 4 people who were all knowledgable concerning Orcas and other wild animals. The big mistake had to do with one of the guests who disagreed about whether the Orcas suffered. He was the retired head of another zoo and he disagreed with the TV program saying that there was nothing wrong with the way the Orcas were being handled. He immedititly brought up the many places where habitats had been built in the past saying that those other animals were quite happy which is correct. His huge mistake was saying that the Orcas were also in a *natural Habitat*. They weren't. They were being kept in lage pools which isn't a habitat. They're holding pens. It was very sad to see the baby orca being separated from the mother. Penn and Teller had a white tiger since it was a cub. On stage, the tiger decided to maul Penn ( or Teller--can't remember). I really don't know if he's still performing. He was seriously injured. I can remember a trained elephant in a circus stepping down on a handler's head because he was startled. The handler died. So, what's going on with the Orcas isn't something new but it will remain the way it is as long as people pay to see them just to get a thrill.

After getting him home, put him in the cage and don't overly fuss with him. Let him get used to the new home,surroundings,new people, other pets. This usually takes at least a few days. Talk softly to him. Feed some nuts through the cage only. If he accepts, fine. If not, just don't force it. He'll be accepting things soon enough.I don't know his personality but when you pick him up tommorro, find out about his present complete diet, whehyer he sleeps with a cover at night, whether he bites, ask whether he's finger trained, how much time he spends out of the cage, ask about partcular things he may be afraid of. try to take some of his present toys home with you. Basically, try to get as much info as possible. Don't be afraid to ask questions. Others here can tell you more. Good luck.

Loved the video. Aretha Franklin----MOVE OVER!! Gracie is back in town

I just wanna disagree with something here about them being noisy. I say this in order to not discourage this person from getting that grey. Greys are known as one of the quiestest birds in the parrot kingdom. They're ideal for apartments, houses that are close together. Most people in the next house or nearby apartment won't even know there's a grey there until the bird starts playing with a toy and gets aggressive and starts to growl and squawk at the toy which doesn't last very long. You'll rarely read anything about people complaining about their neighbor's grey. They're more likely to complain about a dog that constantly barks.

In a cage, most of the time having cardboard boxes shouldn't activate any egg laying phase unless the bird has overactive glands. It can activate possessivenes. A bird with overactive glands doesn't need any type of item that even remotely resembles any nesting material or enclosed area to stimulate them. They'll lay eggs on the grating, in a food dish, in a corner of a cage etc. 95% of birds that do that are usually adults who are very mature. 7,8,9,10 yrs old ( normal breeding age). In my opinion, the real problem is having that cardboard box in the cage in the first place. Why?? Greys are very possessive and giving them something to hide in all the time can eventually lead to aggressive behavior which can result in biting. The box becomes their possession and they don't like their possessions messed around with. They can even feel the same way where toys are involved. A grey doesn't need a cardboard box in the cage and if that bird DOES get stimulated, there's lots of trouble around the corner especially if that bird is an adolescent. Their health, strength and calcium levels can fluctuate which is a no no where greys are involved. There's loads of other items that can be put in a cage.

Speakers on Maximise if possible Enjoy

Parrot Birdie Bread Maybe you'll find one of these thst's easy to prepare. Instructions and ingredients are included. http://www.parrothouse.com/recipes.html

Well, as long as he/she uses a hand instead of a foot then the kid is normal. The kid would look odd when eating cereal with his feet. As far as me, I'm ambidexturous so no *lessons* were ever needed. I'm so lucky.

Parrots don't *learn * how to use one foot to hold food. Their feet are both hands and legs. Monkeys don't * learn* how to use one hand. Bears don't *learn* how to use their claws to hold fish. Squirrels don't * learn * how to use both feet to eat. People don't * learn * how to use one hand to hold something. As you said it's natural behavior. Natural behavior isn't taught. It just exists.

Ignore the word*****Swansons****. They no longer sell it. Amazon sells it and the price and amount is great. =========================================================================================== Red Palm Oil. I've been using it for years as well as loads of other people. It provides a very large amount of VIT A and VIT E which are very important that a bird have an abundant supply of. It's an addon to whatever food is being fed. In the wild, palm oil and palm nuts are a staple in their diet. It's a light oil which can be given in different ways depending upon how the bird likes it. Some put it on a piece of toast and the bird accepts it. Some put a little on a teaspoon and the bird will take it but that usually applies to birds which are still newly weaned chicks. An adult grey at times, won't accept it so easily but there is another method I've always used which works because a bird can't avoid taking it in. I take a handful of pellets and let the oil drip on the pellets. The pellets absorb the oil and the bird eats the pellets. I've always had to use this method because Smokey, Tee and Jazz won't accept it any other way. I'll explain about it but I'll also include pictures. When the oil is purchased, it's bit thick in the container and may have to be thinned out in order to use it. What I do is take an old small seasoning bottle,( like the type that oregano or parsley comes in )clean it thoroughly and then fill it with the oil. When opening the new container the oil has an orange color and is very thick. The filled up seasoning bottle is put into the microwave for approx 25/30 seconds. After microwaving, the oil becomes very thin( thinner than olive oil) and the color of the oil is a rich cherry red. I then take a wooden stick that's a little bit thicker than the ink tube in a ball point pen. I put the stick in the oil and let it drip on the pellets. Then I take the pellets and mix them in with their seed mixture. Some people put it in oatmeal or on scrambled eggs or bread etc etc. They don't even know the oil is there. It can be used once or twice or 3x or 4x a week. Even more. The original container and the seasoning bottle can be put away wherever because no refrigeration is necessary. The oil will return to it's orange, thick texture within 1/2 hr. The name of the company that I give you sells it for about $7.99 plus S/H per container. (Swansons no longer carries it so ignore the $ above) There are other companies that sell it but it's much more expensive. The product would have to be purchased online.No matter what company sells it, it's all the exact same thing. People who have serious digestive problems also use this product. Type in SWANSONS VITAMIN OUTLET. All of their thousands of products are much less expensive than other places because they're a huge vitamin outlet. I've done business with them for years. When their main page opens up, look for any area that allows you to type in the product. Type in Red Palm Oil. You'll then see the product which is 16 ounces. It will be listed as Red Palm Oil or Virgin Palm Oil. Both are identical. If you only have one bird, that container should last you about 8 to 12 months. If you decide to use this product, after microwaving, the seasoning glass container should be allowed to return to room temperature before giving to your bird. A trick is to put it in the fridge fopr a little bit. Think about it. You'll be doing your bird a big favor health wise. It's called Red Palm Oil. PS----It can be used for any other species of parrots too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Color of Palm Oil before Microwaving http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...eforemicro.jpg Color of Palm Oil after Microwaving http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...aftermicro.jpg

Dan, thanks. Hope it helps.

Read this____ http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?200425-The-african-grey-have-i-done-my-homework&p=293896#post293896

If you have come to the forum because you have decided you want a parrot, I urge you to consider the side we DON'T talk about as often - and that's the equally important downside. Plenty of people have posted problems on the forum with aggression/biting/unruly behaviour etc but in your quest for information gathering, have you actually read these posts? I bet you haven't, because if you don't know too much about parrot mentality, and behaviour, you will be forgiven for thinking that person is doing something wrong and they don't have a clue what they are doing. That's where you are wrong . Parrots are not like other pets. Their intelligence will not allow it. Parrots are wild animals and will always stay that way whether they're in the woods or a person's home. If you want a parrot, then I really hope that before you have even started looking for that cute baby bird or even an adult, that you consider the following points. Do you have your own home? Living with your parents or room mates isn't an ideal situation to have a parrot in. If you are still at home, can you take the bird with you when you move out - what about when you go to college? Work? HOW many hours will you work for? How many hours will the bird be alone? If you are with a room mate, is it fair to inflict upon them the noise, the mess, the fact their air fresheners and teflon pans/hair dryers/straighteners/ George Foreman grills will have to permanantly be resigned to the bin? That no, they cannot have loud all night parties because parrots require 8-12hrs of uninterupted sleep? Oh and SO sorry you're trying to study, but maybe you'd best go out if the parrot shouting is annoying you? Do you have plenty of time to spend with your bird? By this I do not mean a few hours of an evening, I mean a LOT of time..... Are you financially stable? Are you aware that your bird must be taken to an AVIAN vet that will charge almost double to a regular vet to do something simple like shorten nails? Does EVERYONE in your household support the idea of living with a parrot and are prepared to roll up their sleeves and get stuck in with training/care? Can everyone take a blood drawing bite or two? Because it WILL happen. Additionally, some birds will always dislike some human, even in it's own family. Are you ready for this? Do your personal qualities include endless patience, love and respect? Can you take the time to learn parrot mentality? ---Parrot's body language? Have you considered what you will do if you find yourself with a bird that is aggressive/noisy/messy? We can't pick personality and for all the good sides, each parrot has a downside that may not be able to be corrected. Can you offer a stable routine? Too many different times for feeding/out of cage/bed are not good for a bird and can distress them greatly. Can you offer a LIFETIME's care to this bird? Life with a parrot is fantastic, rewarding and there is never a dull moment but let me do what I intended to do and break the silence on the bad parts. Parrots are: Messy. They don't just eat food. They throw food, mash it into furnishings, spray juice up the walls and onto the carpet. THEN they eat some food. They can be toilet trained, but poop when they need to where they need to if something is too interesting to go back to the cage for. AND they can't be scolded for this. Noisy. ALL parrots come with a certain amount of noise. Some species are louder or quieter than the next one. The dawn and dusk chorus' are VERY important to them and although you can prevent screaming, it is something you will have to work at for a long LONG time. They are not like dogs, you cannot just call through to the other room "No shouting" and expect it to work. Can get really uppity and they show this via the channels of BITING. Some only in the beginning, others quite frequently - stock up on plasters. Demanding. You must be able to have a parrot out of their cage for a few hours a day at least. They won't let you have any time off from this! They decide they want out? They want it YESTERDAY and they will not behave until you play ball. Bossy. If you think you can curl up on the sofa with a book and your bird wants to play - forget the book. When you bring a new bird home, you cannot FORCE them to do ANYTHING. If you do, they will never trust you and therefore initially, things need to be on THEIR terms. Destructive. Depending on the species and the personality of the bird, you may get one who is capable of ripping your sofa to shreds in the space of half an hour. Wallpaper, woodwork, curtains, cables....it ALL needs to be parrot proofed. Specific health needs. All parrots need a good parrot/ pellet mix as a base food. These are EXPENSIVE. They need seed and nuts - human grade. There's that $ again.....They need plenty of fruit and veg which really, need to be organic - unless you want to risk the pesticide issue. The subject of care is a minefield with many, MANY dangers. No chocolate, no onions, no caffeine, certain veggies etc...the list is not exhaustive. Non stick pans that release deadly fumes need to be binned - stainless steel is hard to clean. Checking your heating systems do not produce PTFE (teflon fumes). No air fresheners. No heavy duty cleaning products. Only stainless steel for your bird - metal poisoning is deadly. No open windows. Only natural cleaning of the cage. No exposed mirrors or windows until your bird is settled. No cables within beak range. No, no no no NO! There are so many I couldn't list them. Is the air humid enough? Prepare for higher leccy bills if your air is dry and you need a humidifyer. Bathing them every day.........on and on and on... Not like other animals. Other domestic pets are different to parrots in the extreme. You can buy a cute puppy or kitten and within a few days, they will be acting like they can't remember where they came from. Not so with a parrot. BASIC trust takes weeks to get to. Deep trust takes months. Bonding can take YEARS. This is where your endless patience needs to kick in. Talking. If you want a parrot just because they talk then you really shouldn't be getting one. Only happy, healthy, settled parrots will talk and then there are some that no matter how content in life, will never attempt to imitate a single noise. Time consuming. Several clean ups a day, wiping away with warm water and lemon juice/vinegar/bi carb/natural products (anything else can be poisonous) - the cage, the bars, the floors, the walls, the toys, the bowls. Providing fresh water several times a day. Cooking and preparing mini dinners. Taking the time to buy lots of different safe toys so they can be rotated. TEACHING your bird HOW to play - it's not natural, you know. Teaching him you are trustworthy. Teaching your bird manners. Keeping him entertained. Consider..... Cages. RESEARCH what size and shape you need. Look for opinions, advice on sizes. This is a most important point. Too small will make for a miserable bird. The bar spacing needs to be correct for safety. No caught body parts or mashed feathers. The shape is important. A climbing bird will not thank you for a dome shaped cage. Good quality cages are a MUST. No rust. Knowledge. You NEED to get the correct knowledge and be confident you know how to handle your future bird before you bring them home. Too many people take a bird home and then ask questions that they shouldn't need to ask. For example: How do I get my bird out of it's cage? How do I get my parrot to like me? How can I get my parrot to cuddle me? These people did no research beforehand. Get yourself Parrots for Dummies and a species specific book - you will need them. Anticipate every problem you can before you home your bird. Remember that many decent, trustworthy books are out there. Just ask about them. These are very basic needs of a parrot. This is them without the "Oh how cute, he said hello!" sugar coating. Having a parrot in your home is not all roses and I'm sure everyone would admit to thinking: Just 10mins peace would be great. I just hope that if you haven't bought a bird but have read this, you have seriously considered what I've said. Parrot rescue centres in the USA are packed out with birds whose owners were ignorant to the downsides. The US's pet classifieds are full of birds who are "unmanagable" or "Don't have the time anymore." People who have all bought now and thought later - to the detriment of the bird. Because of people thinking having a parrot will be "cool", wild birds are STILL being caught in Africa and shipped like semi precious vases to people with more money than sense. Please, make sure you are going into this with your eyes wide open to the downsides as well as the up. Make sure your new edition does not end up neglected, unhappy and wondering what it did to deserve such a scary, sad existence. PS----Ths post isn't meant to scare or offend people. It doesn't apply to all people but it does apply to many people. It's meant to be read by the people who need some guidence. We all know people who need some sort of a list. In the past, time has proven that to be very, very true. If you think you can provide a bird with all of these needs then go for it and I hope you and the grey will enjoy each other for years to come.

This situation sounds like the classic description of an african grey not liking certain children. Many greys don't like children for different reasons. Not all greys but many greys. Many new people checking out greys should be told that sometimes, african greys don't like kids. Some of those reasons can't be seen and others can be seen. Quite a few people who have aggressive greys where children are involved develop problems when a grey has the ability to get around and possibly attack people, especially kids. One thing I can tell you is that your bird isn't going after your son because he doesn't pay attention to him. Greys who dislike certain children are very happy when that child doesn't get close. There's one particular thing you can do although most of the time I'm not for it. This time I am. You can go to the vet and have your bird's wings clipped so that going aftercertain family membrs is more difficult. That would allow the owner to be in more control over the bird. Just remeber that if your bird doesn't like your son, that doesn't have to apply to your daughter, but as she gets older, you never can tell. You can also consider moving the cage and stand to a completly different area so that your bird will have difficulty going after your son or anyone else for that matter.

Well, you have good things going on here.First off, age---those birds are considered baby birds who can be easily trained. Yes, they each need their own cage because each bird has theitr own unique personlity which needs to develop. AS they get older If both birds wind up being bullies, that problem will spread to each and fights may occur. The next thing is family---if your whole family gets involved with the birds, favoritism lessens. Yes, a bird may like a certain person a little more than another person but lets face it, so do you. You like everyone equally?? The next thing is information---personalized information can be had on a board like this and ou can also buy reading material. Many people here have just brought home new young birds---8 mts is NOT old. DNA====That's up to you. A person decides whether they wanna know if a bird/birds is male or female. Many people just don't care. BUT, both birds should get a very basic health check from an avian vet. Loads and loads and loads of people here have adopted or rescued all types of birds. Almost all are adults who already have an established personality. Many are biters, pluckers, aggressive and sometimes unmanageable. Your birds dont.

Large amounts of greys are sold at 6,7,8,9 mts. They're all considered babies. There's no effect on training, temperment, general friendliness, playfulness. A grey is considered an adolescent when it turns to 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 yrs old.

You best bet---use a perch--approx 8 to 10 inches. Hold one end and approach him at a very easy pace. Put perch in front of him at a distance of 4 to 5 inches. With you holding the perch at one end, put the other end against the lower part of to claw. Push a bit and he may hop or walk onto the perch. At the beginning time it probley won't work immediately. You need to repeat as many times as it takes. Be gentle with the bird---No Poking. Repeat this until the bird accepts your hand and the perch at the same time. That means he's starting to trust your hand. Eventually, only use the hand. How long does this process? All greys are different and has their own time table. Plus you have to take into consideration his age. There's always quicker success with a 4 mt old grey then with a 2 yr old bird...SO, What's needed is time, patience and doing it regularly.

Porbably your best bet would be to go to this website and start looking at diferent websites that have vets that cover your area. We don't cover any vets in the UK. vetsdirectory.co.uk/vets-in-england

Well, I definitely disagree with having more than one bird especially if the grey owner is new to owning a grey. They'e a complicated bird and there's lots of things have to be learned about the bird and visa versa. Someone suggests the * the more the merrier* but no one talks about the personality of a grey concerning it's attitude with more than one bird around. Greys are very jealous and if so, lots of training and relationships could go out the window if another bird is around. Also, no one talks about what a grey can do to itself if one on one relationships with people are interfered with such as plucking, chewing, biting etc. There may be a chance to never develop that trust again. There's absolutely no way to know how a grey or other species will take to another bird. Learning about a grey is hard enough. Learning about how 2 birds will get along is even harder. There's also no way to tell if a grey has a desire to keep company with another bird. That also applies to having 2 greys together. People who have had the proper experience with a grey can consider getting another bird but even they have to watch out to make sure one accepts the other. Biting each other can be serious. Small birds such as budgies, parrotlets don't have communication with much larger parrots especially if one has been domesticated. Greys are wild animals and will stay so if even a person owns the bird for 25 yrs. My opinion is to concentrate on the much more complicated bird first. Since you're new to grey ownership but if you succeed with the grey, you'll probably not get another bird. Most of the people here who have multiple birds adopted those birds when they were adults and those adult's personalities can't be changed. Those adults were probably owned by others.