Tari

Going to start this one early cause it well take some time. This is going to be harder. Ok you can draw, photo shop or paint shop pro this picture. (or whatever) 1) It must be your work and your picture. 2) It must be bird related and I'll be allowing Grey's in this one. 3) I'm going to let each person/account enter two pictures. 4) No animations. 5) No halloween we have a contest for that already. 6. Use common since if I missed a guideline. Remember we want this to be fair. What you do is take a picture and change it or enhance it or but cloths on it or turn a flower into a bird or whathave you. Get the idea? Or you can draw a bird but change it somehow. This contest well take entries for a month. So you can enter up till Oct. 14th. Hope that gives you plenty of time. I know some of you well not get to enter this contest but don't worry you'll get a chance again. Can't wait to see what you all come up with.<br><br>Post edited by: Tari, at: 2007/09/17 12:00

Id like to add only post to the debate when and if you have something new to say and not repeat the same thing over and over in your post. I know that is hard to do but bringing new ideas is what a debate is about not brow beating with just one idea over and over again. And never imply bad things about people that have different opions. Remember there is a fine line between debating and baiting. Try not to cross it.

If the temp change was 17 degree drop within minutes I would agree. But since it was over two weeks I would not think that is it. It is also the wrong time of the year for a molt. So you might want to find other possilbe answer for the lose of feathers.

I prefer Zupreem for my pellets but I feed very little of that. Dan makes a great suggestion for food. Also right now is not a good time to convert Id wait a couple months then work on that. When you do be sure to offer him all the regular food he wants just add good stuff to it. It can take months to convert him to a better diet you just have to keep at it.

Opps forgot to comment on those cages. Both are great. As far as potty training that is something I never recommend for many reasons. You can find a thread about that in the Training section and then make up your own mind.

Umm CD sorry hun you won the last one. So if you don't mind I would prefer you set this one out? Im sorry if I did not explain that at the start. Ok folks Talonsis has agreed to the do the winners banner this time. So you should get something extra special. You have a few more hours before I close this later today.

Yes quaker are/can be loud. Yes they do or can be aggressive around their cage. A happy hut or jolly ball for sleeping in does help. Many people have a seperate cage for sleeping in. Some are not as noisy as others but still can be so bad your neighbors complain. They do however talk much better then tiels. However if you plan to have children down the road I would recommend going with the cockatiel or a budgie. Also since you rent many landlords don't require a deposit on the smaller birds. IE cockatiel or budgies. Easier to move with you. Since you do rent I would recommend one of those and then when you buy your home and your children are in their teens get a quaker they are great birds. If the bird dog is moving with you Id not get a bird at all until you move. Even if you keep your bird in a different room in the house that is just not fair to the bird or the dog for that matter the sounds may drive your dog nutty wanting to get to the bird. My quakers are even messier then my amazon and my grey. lol But I love them very much and would not trade my quakers for anything. I however do not rent and I live in a house so there is some space between me and my neighbors.

Bump seems we need a reminder. Yes even me cause we have a new troll.:sick:

I just wish people who clip the wings of their birds would just admit it is a matter of convenience.... Because that is NOT why I clip my birds wings.

Bondi that is a good idea. Same advice I give for taming a budgie. Toweling them and taking them to the bathroom or other small room. Just make sure the toilet seat is down. lol

So true Talonsis that is why I never recomend even a clipped bird going outside without a harness or in a travel cage. You are one smart cookie.:laugh:

Yes and I love that article. You did a really good job. I only posted that cause we are getting a lot of posted titled. What do I do my bird is doing ...... And then they balk at the idea of going to the vet. So thought this would make people understand we don't say that to make them spend money but because their bird might be sick.

Since I posted the whole thing and not just pieces I don't think I have broken any copywrite laws. If you think I have let me know and I'll have this deleted.

And this might help also. IS IT TRUE YOU CAN'T TELL WHEN A BIRD IS SICK?? Liz Wilson, CVT Parrot Behavior Consultant Several years ago when I was still working for avian veterinarians, I had a memorable phone conversation with a young man who had just purchased his very first parrot, an African grey. He's real nice and quiet," the new owner said. "There is a problem - your bird needs to be seen by an avian veterinarian as soon as possible," I said. "No, you don't understand. I chose this bird because he was quiet - he was the quietest African grey they had at the store." "No, YOU don't understand - it is not normal for a parrot to be quiet. The bird sounds like he might have some sort of problem and should be seen by an avian vet as soon as possible." Fortunately, the young man made an appointment. When our avian vet checked the bird out completely, she discovered the bird had psittacosis ("Parrot Fever"). The bird went through treatment and did very well. About a month later, this nice young man called me back. He's Learning! "Remember when I said my grey was normally quiet and you told me that I didn't understand?" he asked. I remembered the conversation well and told him so. "Well," he said, "NOW I understand!!" I have been hearing a lot recently from concerned bird owners who have been reading that they won't be able to tell if their birds are sick -- and I tell them this story. The point being this: if you are a novice bird owner who has no experience with birds, it may seem as if birds show no signs of disease at all. However, in most cases there are plenty of signs of the bird getting into trouble -- the trick is that the owner must understand the significance of what they are seeing. Years of Experience Over the years, I have dealt with hundreds of uneducated bird owners who sought the assistance of avian veterinarians when their birds had stopped eating completely or worse yet, were down on the bottom of the cage. These well meaning people truly thought their birds had "only been sick since this morning", or "only a couple of days". In virtually every one of these case, when the vet examined the patient they found it to be painfully thin, indicating that in reality the bird had been going downhill for at least a week or two. "Come To Think Of It….." Then, in addition to trying to save the bird's life, the process of educating the owner would begin. I would spend time explaining how subtle a bird can be about signs of illness -- and then would begin what I call the Come-To-Think-Of-Its: "Come to think of it, he has been quieter for the last couple of weeks", and "Come to think of it, he didn't show any interest in his millet spray for the last several days, and he normally LOVES his millet spray", or, "Come to think of it, he has acted like he didn't want to be petted in the last week or two, and he ALWAYS wants to be petted (or he DID want to be petted and he doesn’t normally) -- but I just didn't realize that meant there might be a problem." More Familiar Behaviors From More Familiar Animals To most people, dogs are a very understandable creatures -- even if we've never lived with one, they are very familiar. And when a dog doesn't feel good they're like a small child -- they are generally as subtle as a brick. They stare at you with mournful eyes, they sigh loudly. They practically pull on your pant leg, saying "I DON'T FEEL GOOD!" On the other hand, cats are much more subtle when they're ill. They may not greet you as usual when you come home, or they don't come as fast as usual when they hear the can opener. Whatever their normal patterns, there is a very tiny, subtle change. Now, to someone only accustomed to dogs, a cat probably shows no signs of illness at all, because the body language is so different, and the body language is unfamiliar. The Problem With Birds... In essence, this is the problem with cage birds -- the usual signs of illness are much more subtle than people expect. It is not that, in most cases, there weren't any signs, but that they were more difficult to recognize as evidence of a problem. For those unfortunate people whose birds were sick for weeks before they brought them to an avian veterinarian, I could promise two things to help them with their self-recriminations. Learning The Hard Way... First, since they brought their bird to a vet while it was still alive, they were doing better than I did with my first large parrot, who died five days after I bought him. I had no idea there was even a problem -- I thought the little Amazon was just a quiet, sweet-tempered bird. When I found him dead one morning, I took his small body to the only vet around that saw birds, and the vet showed me that "Torque" was horribly thin and had an empty crop -- evidence that he hadn't been eating for days. SIGNS OF POSSIBLE ILLNESS IN A BIRD Decrease in normal noise level. Decrease in normal activity level. Change in the droppings NOT related to diet. Decrease in the total number or volume of droppings. Change in bird's appearance and/or posture - i.e. sitting lower on perch, wings drooping, sitting on cage bottom, etc.. Bird fluffed and shivering when the room is not cold. (Note: this can also be a sign of stress). A sudden change in appetite and/or water consumption (either decrease or excessive increase); sudden disinterest in some foodstuff normally loved. A change in respiratory effort; i.e. increased motion of the tail associated with respiratory effort. Decreased exercise tolerance. Abrupt personality change - i.e. normally unfriendly bird suddenly wants to be cuddled. Nasal discharge. Frequent sneezing. Matted, soiled feathers around the nostrils, on the head or around the vent area. Equilibrium problems - even klutsy babies shouldn't fall constantly. Lumps, masses or swellings anywhere on the body. Inability to perch. Bleeding. That was thirty years ago, and that leads me to the second promise: a caring person who learns the hard way about the subtleties of a sick bird's symptoms NEVER has to experience it again. For those of you lucky enough to not have learned in this manner, let me tell you that you NEVER forget it -- the guilt and recriminations are simply too awful. Today's better educated bird owner rarely experiences a horror story like this. They notice subtle changes in their pet's behavior and may not know what it means, but they often seek medical help immediately. It was couple of winters ago when my companion of twenty-three years started acting a little odd. She's a blue and gold macaw named Sam, and in addition to her normal nesting behavior, she just wasn't acting right. I watched her like a hawk for a day, talked to her, asked her questions that she refused to answer. I simply could not decide whether or not there was something wrong, because she always acts a little weird when her hormones are raging -- just like me! I have my own scale (a piece of equipment that is priceless to any bird owner), and I started weighing her daily. On the third day, she started dropping weight and her eating habits changed. One hour later, we were sitting in the waiting room of the vet hospital, nervously anticipating our appointment. My avian vet, Dr. Liza Clark examined Sam and found nothing wrong -- "just a normal Blue & Gold hen in nesting behavior", she said. I said "Fine, I'm sure you're right, but let's do a culture and some bloodwork anyway." (Obviously, I had too much money in my pockets.) By the time the tests came back five days later, I wasn't surprised that they were perfectly normal -- because in the interim, Sam had laid two eggs! (These are the second and third eggs that she has laid in at least 35 years, by the way.) (For those of you who think your parrot is predictable.) The point of this story is simple - if you know your bird and pay attention to its normal behavior, body language, etc., then you will know when something changes -- and something changing indicates the possibility of a problem developing. You won't necessarily know what the problem is, but you will know that something is happening. In Sam's case there was no problem, but I didn't know that -- I just knew there was a change. And telling the difference between a normal biological change and a problem developing is the job of a competent avian vet.

What is an Emergency? How soon do I need to call a vet? Reprinted by kind permission of Dr. Dan Jordan Animal Avian Hospital of the Village 2422 Robinhood, Houston, TX 77005 713-524-3800 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With any of these problems or symptoms, call immediately: Broken limbs Any bleeding that cannot be stopped immediately with Kwik-stop Burns Seizures Any loss of consciousness Known poisoning Animal attacks Shock Broken or bleeding beak Listlessness or unresponsiveness With any of these problems or symptoms, call the same day: Eye problems (injuries, infections) Appetite Loss Poor coordination, dizziness Regurgitation (not related to breeding behavior) Straining to defecate Labored breathing Egg-binding or prolapse With any of these problems or symptoms, call within 48 hours: Discharge fron nostrils Wet sneezes Diarrhea or runny stools Lameness Any significant change in activity level or play activity Increased sleeping Sudden onset picking, plucking, or scratching

Its ok sometimes I sound harsh even to myself and I don't mean to be.

Oh I know hun you are one of the best people I know. Just wish I had paid attention when people told me how bad that stuff was.

Ok Im going to tell you a couple true stories. I had a green quaker named Draco and a blue Crown conure named Robin and 9 budgies some years ago before the birds I have now. I thought I was safe with my t-fal my mother gave me for Christmas and I would never let my t-fal burn. One day my husband called with the 'come fast I need you" call and I did, then I went on to work. I come home nine hours later to a house full of dead birds. I had left a boiler on the stove with water in it to make tea before I went to work and forgot about it. I know what your thinking "that wont ever happen to me" That is the same thing I thought for five years and It didn't happen to me for five long years and then poof all my birds were gone. I'll tell you one more story. One of the bird club members was breeding budgies and cockatiel in her home. She had around 76 birds in the house. One day she got a call that her mother was having a heart attack and she took off to the ER. Three hours later she arrives home to a house full of dead birds. Even the ones upstairs were dead. You are right sprays may not kill right away the way over heating can but it well over time by shorting your birds life span. Candles won't kill right away either. Even second hand smoke won't kill your bird right away. I live in my house without the use of any of these products and I am still comfortable and my birds are safe. Ok off my soap box. I post this in loving memory of the birds I killed. And if reading this saves just one bird it was worth the tears I shed while I post this. Now you have the facts you can make an informed decision on weather the risk is worth it for you or not. Thank you for reading this.<br><br>Post edited by: Tari, at: 2007/09/15 16:33

Did the avain vet do blood work? How long ago was it? No temperture change wont cause that.

Birds rarely look ill till they are very very ill. They are very good at hiding illness. A checkup is always in order for a new bird even if they appear to be healthy. Just part of getting a bird. I always take a new bird to the vet within 3 days and I tell everyone that buys a bird from me to do the same. I know mine are not sick but it is just a smart thing to do. Keep tring with the stick. If you let her win everytime you'll never get anywhere with her. Maybe start out with just having the stick near the cage then open the door and just put it in the door. In the mean time just enjoy her and talk to her a lot or read while you sit next to the cage.

Sometimes a sick bird well shed. Or yes she could be allergic to the food. Maybe try seeing if she well eat fresh fruit and veggies? When was the last trip to the vet? Are they just falling out or is is possible she is pulling them out? Either way a trip to the vet to rule out illness would be my first step.

And because Makena is living in a domestic environment is why I choose to clip him. He doesn't understand the concept of a window, or a hot stove, or a ceiling fan, etc. I agree 100 percent and that is why all my birds are clipped its not about convenience but about me loving my birds and wanting them safe as I can make them.

I clip. I do this for my pets safety. If I had a huge outdoor avary that was safe I would not clip but I don't. My birds live in my house with many things that can hurt them no matter how much bird proofing we do they can still get hurt. So yes I clip.