Understanding the mentality of your grey

[shanlung]

2600 years ago, Sun Tzu wrote his Ping Fa better known perhaps to you as 'The Art of War'

 

One fundamental underlie his thoughts in his PingFa.

 

知 己 知 彼

zhi ji zhi bi

 

百 战 百 胜

bai zhan bai sheng

 

or

 

Know yourself, Know your opponent

A hundred battles, a hundred victory.

 

I am not saying we treat our grey as an enemy to do battle with.

 

But if we understand them, it may make it that much easier to live with them and to train with them.

 

Whether you want to train with them as friends, or to train them as you the "Alpha', understanding their mind must help.

 

And perhaps those that thought they must dominate them and be the Alpha might even change their mind instead.

 

And perhaps those that have been bitten and otherwise terrorised by their grey might be bitten a lot less and enjoy their grey a lot more, and find training with them a lot easier.

 

If you understand the mentality of your parrot, that might go a

long way to becoming friends together.

 

 

Notwithstanding that was written in early 2005, I cannot add further to that.

I find what I wrote to be applicable to my currently living with Riamfada, and to Yiongshiong even if YS was not a grey.

 

Even if it is just my 2 cents and for all it is worth.

 

An extract from Tinkerbell Legacy

 

Tinkerbell Legacy - Living with a flying parrot - Rant 03 (a flighted parrot mentality)

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/2187.html

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

Shanlung

山 龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

Edited August 11, 2010 by shanlung
found the proper chinese phrase

[GoDiego]

I love the way you seem to have such a deep understanding of Riamfada and the way you have changed your way of thinking rather than trying to change his. I would love for Diego and I to have the same understanding of each other in the future, but I have a lot to learn from him at the moment.

[shanlung]

Godiego

 

 

 

and to all others reading this.

 

I add here a couple of postings I made elsewhere on this thread that might make interesting reading here as well.

 

 

888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

 

Re:Understanding the mind of your grey

 

Greys are intelligent and I really cannot see their biting in terms of mindless

viciousness from them at all.

 

Only humans are capable and demonstrate unprovoked viciousness and cruelty. Are

we right in extending that uniquely human trait to the animals in general and

greys in particular?

 

Greys resort to biting when they are frightened and afraid or if they felt they

cannot communicate anymore of their wishes and preferences.

 

I remembered the days when I was a tiny boy and a lot more cute than what you

have seen of me in my photos.

 

My sisters, and their friends, love to pet my cheek when I did not like it. At

that time, if I had known of greys and parrots, I would have turned around and

chomp them on the fingers.

 

To me, it was so easy to see if birdie is receptive to me or not.

And very often, if birdie is not receptive then (to head rubs or to train

together), just a few minutes later, the birdie will be ready and receptive.

 

Perhaps its because I do my best to see their moods AT ALL TIMES.

And because I want to see, I do see it.

 

Smart and intelligent as greys may be, shouldn't the onus be on us the humans

who are supposed to be even smarter?

 

Are we to blame the parrot because they 'cannot read us' (I think they read us

a lot better!) or should we blame ourselves for not reading them, and in many

cases, deliberately not reading them in the first place.

 

I think 'Alphas' pay a heavier price for assuming the role of alphas

than those who decide greys are equal and should be treated with the courtesy

and dignity due to fellow sentients.

 

And if 'Alphas' insist on what they think is God given role as 'Alphas', they

continue to pay the price until they learn.

 

To each the role they want to play, and the rewards and price they get for

playing those roles.

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

Far too often, because people do not see or do not wish to see the reason for

the biting, they rather conveniently say the parrot bite them without reasons at

all.

 

Or they say its the Terrible 2 or 3. That hormonal changes came.

That might be the case. But even at that, the nuances of the emotions can be so

easily seen in them.

 

Blaming hormonal changes is another cop-out.

 

Even without hormonal changes, a parrot might get out of the wrong side of the

bed on that day.

 

I do not do to them what I done the day before because I can do that the day

before or even on the hour just before. That the birdie liked it then do not

mean the birdie like the same thing now.

 

The birdie showed so much of what they liked that it is so much easier to make

yourself more receptive to their moods there and then and act to them according

to their moods there and then.

 

That is just simple courtesy and respect to fellow intelligent sentient.

 

 

 

 

 

8888888888888888888888888888888888888888

 

 

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

Shanlung

山 龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

[GoDiego]

Even without hormonal changes, a parrot might get out of the wrong side of the bed on that day.

 

Ha ha, I know this all too well and not from Diego. I'm not the best person in the mornings!

 

Thanks for your reply, yesterday I posted on one of your threads blaming you for my untidy house. I started reading your journal and could not stop, I found your adventures and your way of communicating with your birdies and beasties fascinating. I asked on the other thread, if you are a unique man who has a natural ability to communicate with your feathered friends or if it has all been learn't from trial and error? Was Tinkerbell your first birdie and did you learn through her, or have you always been around our feathered friends?

[Janfromboone]

I love the story about when you unfairly squirted her she came and pooped not once but twice on your shoulder. You have such great understanding of your grey. I love to read the tinkerbell stories.

[shanlung]

Godiego,

 

I had a Nias Island Hill Minah long time ago in early 80s. That was the largest of the Indian Hill Minahs.

 

He was kept in an aviary in my garden. I and the rest of the world then had not known what else to do but to chuck them into a cage with food and water. No toys, very little interactions. I wished I known then a quarter of what I know now.

 

Janfromboone,

 

I was told that after they poop, it would be at least 45 minutes before they need to poop again.

 

Tinkerbell took no shit from me. Her control to lay a bit, flew to the other shoulder to lay another bit, and hovering right in front of my face before flying away to preen was so eloquent and would never be forgotten by me to never ever be such a piece of shit to her and all other intelligent sentient.

 

You can see I have very good teachers who taken me under their wings. They are a lot wiser and taught me so much more than the many self styled experts waving their hand moaning about need for Domination, height placement and to Alpha them to force them to their will.

[GoDiego]

Thanks Shanlung, you have told me what I need most to know and that was that the key is to watch and learn from Diego. I have said before that before I got Diego, I read time and time again the importance of training a parrot. And although I feel it is a good thing to research and learn from books, it is only now that I realise the most important thing for me to read is Diego himself and it is me that is being trained to live in harmony with him and not the other way around.

 

Oh and by the way, I made a Tinkerbell mash for Diego yesterday. I have changed it slightly by adding more veggies in, but the main principle of it is the same. Fingers crossed he likes it as there is bucket loads of the stuff LOL.

[danmcq]

Shanlung - I love this thread! I hope it contnues for a long time as a true discussion of behaviors we see, what they may mean, what may have triggered it or if... possibly just if, they are playing a game that includes a bite for example. The key is to recognise what they mean and are doing for what purpose.

 

I bring this up, because when I play catch with Dayo, I have for the last 3 years always made a Wooooooo sound when I toss it back and just in general play or when he would slip, he will even say WOOOooo when he slips sometimes. I went into a little backfground on this so all will understand why I am saying what I'm abot to put out there for commenting on.

 

Dayo will bite, as you say, if I do not respect his body langauge or space when it is obvious he does not wish to be bothered. However, there are times for example, he will be sitting and preening on my lap, put his head down and be watching with his eyes kind of tilted up in a micro fashion (I know they cannot truly move their eyes like we can, but they can ever so slightly if you study them). So if I'm feeling brave, sometimes, well most times, I will go for it, hoping it is one of those times he will actually let me give him scratches for a very short 10 or 20 seconds. Around 70 percent of the time, he will flip his head around grab my finger somewhere hard, then go WOOoooooo. To me, this is like a game to him to see if I'm stupid enough to try once again OR he thinks I like this game and will play it with the CHANCE he might just let me scratch him. Kinda like russian roulette.

 

I agree 100 percent with you, that they do not bite out of just meaness or viciousness. They did it because we did not respect thier space or body language at the time.

Edited August 13, 2010 by danmcq

[shanlung]

Shanlung -

I agree 100 percent with you, that they do not bite out of just meaness or viciousness. They did it because we did not respect thier space or body language at the time.

 

In this thread at another forum somewhere, there is this lady who love to say she graduated from a bird psychology course in almost everyone of her mail. Whatever that meant. Maybe that she became an expert because she got a printed certificate.

 

Her grey bite her about once a month, and that it was the fault of the grey. That greys are so individual. But of course! Greys are individuals.

I do not treat Riam the way I treat Tinkerbell. But at the very bottom, they all are the same, including getting out of wrong side of bed.

 

It was so obvious she relished her role as the Alpha and with her psychology course, that she could psycho the birdie to her will. (guess who I wrote indirectly to in letter of 11 Aug). That she carried the birdie everywhere (guess that she clipped the wings so birdie be less uppity)

 

Also obviously, I am a nobody to her. With none of those fancy certs to hang in my house and none of those fancy affiliations. So again

 

And if 'Alphas' insist on what they think is God given role as 'Alphas', they

continue to pay the price until they learn.

 

To each the role they want to play, and the rewards and price they get for

playing those roles.

 

 

I also cannot understand whats all those emphasis on birdie pinning their eyes to be watched out for as the magical precursor to biting.

Tinkerbell, and now Riamfada, they kept pinning their eyes (narrowing and then dilating their pupils) almost all the time when I play with them.

 

I like to think they pin their eyes even when I am not playing and watching them at all.

I never will know. After all, if I am not watching them, can one know if they pin their eyes then?

 

One might as well say parrot open their jaws before they chomp on you and watch out that opening of the jaws.

 

One other very special point I like to make.

 

I always asked them (by voice or by the very actions) and I watched them, as to everything I like them to do, or allow me to do.

My wishes were almost never rejected by them.

 

I do believe, the very act of asking them, was perceived by them.

 

And because I did the courtesy of asking them, they allowed me , and played along with me, because I asked them.

 

Simple opening of the heart, and courtesy and respect to them, gained me a lot more than a dozen beautiful certificates and affiliations.

 

Your graduation from my course is your better enjoyment with your birdie and having more magic in your relationship. And a lot less chomping from them.

 

Isn't that better than a beautiful cert and diploma hanging on your wall?

 

Do try that, and remember that cheque to Gerald Durell Wildlife Trust or to any nature conservation body of your choice on your graduation.

 

And tell your friends it worked for you and to try this course, so nicely stickied here for easy finding.

 

 

Warmest regards

 

Shanlung

山龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

[danmcq]

I also cannot understand whats all those emphasis on birdie pinning their eyes to be watched out for as the magical precursor to biting. Tinkerbell, and now Riamfada, they kept pinning their eyes (narrowing and then dilating their pupils) almost all the time when I play with them. I like to think they pin their eyes even when I am not playing and watching them at all.

 

I always asked them (by voice or by the very actions) and I watched them, as to everything I like them to do, or allow me to do.

My wishes were almost never rejected by them.

 

I have the same difficulty. I watch Dayo's eye's constantly when interacting with him. I also see his entire body, when playing, feeding or perhaps sitting across the room from him. It became apparent to me, that I must be brain damaged in the sense of NOT being able to tell much from the eyes, other than he is restricting the amount of light into his eye for a reason.

 

I have read tons of scientific studies on the avian eye function and just general observances from from parrot owners, behaviorists etc. The "Parrot Community" in my estimation, just mimics what it has held as a long time belief. The scientists stick to the data they obtain through zillions of tests and study over decades. Much like the mimicking of "You must clip a parrots wings".

 

With that said, I simply look at Dayo as a "Whole". Sometimes I can read his entire body language and know if "We" are ok or not. Many times, he fools me. I believe he gets a big laugh out of it or perhaps a feeling of accomplishment in pulling off another bait and switch on me. Thats ok, I feel the same good feeling when I do the same to him. :-)

 

The people that attended "John Blockheads bird behavior course" and are all of a sudden now a paper certified parrot behavior consultant wanting to charge lots of money to come and tell you in an hour session whats wrong with your parrot or you, is worth about as much as the certificate you describe.....in my opinion.

 

I have learned through trial and error, to ask as you already mentioned and do so with true respect, calm emotions and truthfulness that if he clearly shows his answer is no, I just respect his wish and leave him alone. It has become very rare, when I must just force what I want do to some compelling reason.

 

Just as the "Because I said so" didn't make our children growing up feel warm and fuzzy with what we forced them to do, our parrots do not have the warm fuzzy feeling either in those times.

 

I hope this turns into a very long thread with plenty of good comments here.

 

Thanks Shanlung!

Edited August 15, 2010 by danmcq

[GoDiego]

I'm loving this thread!

 

I also cannot understand whats all those emphasis on birdie pinning their eyes to be watched out for as the magical precursor to biting.

Tinkerbell, and now Riamfada, they kept pinning their eyes (narrowing and then dilating their pupils) almost all the time when I play with them.

 

Diego pins his eyes for so many reasons, I personally think that the pinning of the eyes is there way of naturally showing that they are taking everything in and are stimulated. If Diego's eyes pin whilst lowering his head and fluffing up just his head feathers I know he wants a scratch. However, if his eyes are pinning with his head forward but all of his feathers fluffed out, he's saying "back off, I'm not in the mood" If his eyes are pinning with all of his feathers slicked back and his head up tall and back he is being spooked by something or is unsure of something. I must admit that I do not watch Diego's eyes for signs of aggression but like danmcq says the whole of his body. Although I do know that when Diego's eye's are almond shape and he's fluttering his eyelids, he's putty in my hand. But again I do not become complacent as this moment of total relaxation in Diego can change within a split second.

 

I've also got to know Diego's patterns. For example, he hates to be petted or asked to be stepped up for at least 1/2 hour after he's eaten or first thing in the morning after being in his cage all night. After he has had a shower, there is just no getting near him, he's completely fired up and over stimulated and this lasts normally until his feathers have pretty much dried out.

 

I have to admit that just walking away from Diego when all I want to do is show him how much I love him it is one of the hardest things to do. But he is not my pocession and therefore I have no right to throw myself at him whenever I feel like it. I just wait until he asks me and when he does, it's a wonderful feeling knowing that he really wants my attention I almost feel privileged that he trusts me enough to ask.

 

Many times, he fools me. I believe he gets a big laugh out of it or perhaps a feeling of accomplishment in pulling off another bait and switch on me. Thats ok, I feel the same good feeling when I do the same to him. :-)

 

Diego also often misleads me, I never know if it was my fault for missing something he was trying to say to me beforehand. If he suddenly has a change of heart and decides "actually, thinking about it I'm not in the mood" or like Dayo, is having a laugh!

 

Trying to figure Diego out is reminding me a lot of when I was single and meeting someone who blew hot and cold all of the time. Funny really, I never put up with that from someone when I was single but with Diego, I seem to be a complete sucker for him LOL!

[shanlung]

This could have been in my old thread.

 

Or could have been in diet.

 

Or in here

 

Pakistan//mind of parrot//Tinkerbell Mash Batch 9//Riamfada pulling up cup//Villa walkabout

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/119016.html

Warmest regards

 

 

 

Shanlung

 

山 龍

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

[Lyric]

Such words of wisdom, I love it. I think people in the United States have an attitude that their pets are their possessions to be treated as they like. If only more of us could see our bird companions as another of the world's creatures that happens to share a home with us. I feel honored each and every day to have the companionship of my feathered angels. I do my best to care for them and respect them and live in harmony with them. I only wish more people could feel this way about animals.

[Jayd]

I think people in the United States have an attitude that their pets are their possessions to be treated as they like.

If I may, Is this a general assessment or just certain people? Sorry you feel this way, since were American's..Jayd, and Maggie...

[Tweedle]

I don't think any particular nation has the monopoly on this viewpoint. I think it's an unfortunate part of 'human nature', that animals are regarded as possessions, to be used, controlled, dominated, and disposed of according to our will. I think it is often the default position, and it takes lessons or an experience of 'connection' with a creature to move beyond this.

[Jayd]

A Grey is a wild animal removed from the wild, bred to be companions. They are long removed from being able to take care of themselves but not so long as to forget at times they're still wild...so it's up to us to make sure we protect them. We're the reason they demand all this attention. We removed them from the wild. Jay

[Tweedle]

Absolutely.

[shanlung]

They live so much longer than us, and they will be around after we are gone from their part of the world or from the world entirely.

 

In the meanwhile, I regard Riamfada as my companion, my daughter and my ward.

 

Perhaps it might be my Eastern background even if my other foot is set firmly in the West.

And the realisation via my meetings with that Birdwhisperer of Tsaoling of another fundamental Taoist truth. (Taoism is the Zen of Zen Buddhism)

Do not mistake that finger pointing to the moon as the moon itself

 

Read Tsaoling Bird Whisperer Revisited

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/wtsaolingrevisit.htm'>http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/wtsaolingrevisit.htm

 

Training techniques are just training techniques, which might appeal to the intellect and the mind.

 

Wisdom is a property of the 'heart', and the knowing of not doing things because such 'things' are normally done, or that because everyone else says so.

 

The mind and the heart must work together, but all too often, thats not the case.

 

My latest report might make interesting reading.

 

Will you yank Riamfada off that wall because you can ? or will you get that book to read until she decided to come off on her own?

 

Is one way more right than the other? I dont think I ever know.

I only do it in the way that felt right to me.

 

Pakistan//Tinkerbell Kitty Mash//Dommie at the beach Ramadhan 2010 //Villa walkabout 2

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/119237.html

Warmest regards

 

 

 

Shanlung

 

山 龍

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

[Birdnut]

Sometimes I have felt like a lax bird owner because I have not "trained" our birds to respond to commands more. I have preferred to just let them be birds and come to me when they want to most of the time. I have "understandings" with the different birds, and we all know what to expect from each other and what we cannot expect. I don't force them to do anything except where their safety or the continued existence of some valuable object is involved. But then I worry about how they would fare with a different owner, if something were to happen to us. These discussions reassure me somewhat that my approach is not wrong.

[shanlung]

Birdnut,

 

Do not worry about being laid back.

I am about the most laid back guy.

 

I will be more worried if you are those gung-ho train train train fanatic.

As if training is all there is to life.

 

Life consist of smelling roses too. In my form , are those neighbourhood walks.

Some of the best stuff Riam did for me were stuff I never trained her in.

 

Meanwhile, hope you enjoy this.

 

Riamfada flying into home//Neighbourhood hide&seek

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/119717.html

 

 

9-11//Dommie final visit to ocean Ramadan 2010 & unsheduled Riamfada free flight//The Day Approaches

 

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/119935.html

 

 

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

 

Shanlung

 

山 龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

[rcmotorgirl]

Shanlung

 

I have had the pleasure of taking on the challenge of an eight year old re-home grey. It was very apparent he was never handled nor loved. I do not have the experience most people have with African Greys. I have only read a little bit just due to the fact it is like reading a book on giving birth...everyone is different. I just used basic common sense. I have two other greys, but got them at four months old, so I didn't have to jump into a personality which was already molded. Don't get me wrong, I have taken some hard bites, but worth the outcome. He would never come out of the cage unless it was to attack you. He was scared and protecting HIS cage..that is all that he knew. We let him settle in a very short time before we started to handle him, or at least try to. I would watch his body language (eyes, head, feathers)...He educated me very quickly. I never scolded him, just told him that I love him and that was not nice. We have had him for three weeks now...he went from attacking and banging his beak on the cage to walking out and stepping up on your hand. He likes to let me know he is the man of the house ( I let him), he puffs up, eyes pin...I sit and talk with him and ask him if he is done...he will raise his foot when he is ready and all is good! He has taught me patience and tolerance and with that he now says "I love You!" and I can steal a kiss from him. What more can you ask from such an intelligent, extremely important part of our family? Nothing~~~~I knew he was going to be work and when I bought him, I was at the bird farm to buy another youngster and saw him..I knew I had to have him. I have lots of holes in my hands, but worth every step we have taken together. I can't wait to see what he still has in store!

[Jayd]

I hope this might help, posts numbers, 28, 33, 36,......http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190309-A-note-on-Punishment-and-your-Parrot/page3

[shanlung]

rcmotorgirl,

 

That grey is lucky to have found you. Bear in mind he got a bad convulated past to seek search protection in his cage. Through no fault of him, you might yet have to pay the price of his earlier mishandling

 

Show him slowly, that life is different with you. And in time, you will feel so lucky that you have him to share life with.

 

Friends

 

 

Last few bitter sweet days with my creatures of Oman.

 

Jebel Shams -Mountain of Sun // Jabreen Castle // Change of flight plan

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/120065.html

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

 

Shanlung

 

山龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

[shanlung]

Here is more, while I am still here.

Riamfada around neighbourhood // Mrs Jabri harnessing Riamfada // Riamfada as perch maker

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/120555.html

Warmest regards

 

 

Shanlung

 

山 龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

[shanlung]

A slice of the Artic//Riamfada again around neighbourhood // Riamfada cage// round the mulberry bush

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/120612.html

Riamfada free flights in villa // And around neighbourhood

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/121070.html

Warmest regards

 

 

Shanlung

 

山 龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9