tarm

The good news is feather grow back. What were all the various things you tried before deciding to do this? How long did you spend trying these things before deciding they did not work? In hind site given many people have been able to train fully flighted birds including greys you may want to look at things you could have done or tried. Did you enlist the help of a professional avian trainer? What about a avian behavoralist? Did you ask on the forums to get the opinions of things to try from other owners that may have been thru it?

You know as many knowledgeable people there seems to be on this board unless it has already been done it may be a good idea to have a FYI sticky up about the actual true pros and cons of clipping versus flighted. This will empower people with good info when they are faced with people that aggressively oppose their position. It will go a long way to educating those uninformed as well. Some things off the top of my head and what I recall from researching the subject: What Nature has achieved and supplies is always the Gold Standard IMO. Lets face it with clipping we are doing it solely for our own selfish reasons which is to make them easier ON US to keep. Please show me one person that thinks any normally flighted bird is not happiest and healthiest being flighted and not clipped. Some of the negatives and dangers of clipping IMO: Slower or repressed neurological development. ( Everything from physically to mental with less fear, more confident, to even talking and vocal expression) May also effect plucking and other negative behaviors Lower level of physical health and condition. (No way they are getting 1/1000 of the physical exercise clipped comapred to in the wild or 1/10 being captive but still flighted) When not clipped they are Psychologically more stable and happier. We all hear how birds hardily if ever bite in the wild. Why is that? They can fly away. Apply that to captivity. Even if the bird does not choose to but knowing it can fly if it wants to makes it more confident and less likely to bite as a primary defensive reaction. Likely a far lower general state of stress thru out its life. Again take ever situation and think of NATURE as the Gold standard. We want them to have as close as reasonably possible everything they would have if wild in nature. Clipping gives a false sense of security to the owner. Most people think clipped birds can not fly. That is simply not the case unless it is a severe clipping or lop sided which are dangerous and cruel IMO. The owner thinks "my bird is clipped it can not fly." Likely in a clam state the bird very well will appear to be with out flight. Now try spooking it. Or combine that with a breeze for tad bit of up lift. The issue is as has been stated: Once the bird under panic has flown it does not possess the ability to safely get back or possibly down. It basically is frozen where it landed with fear. I am willing to bet that more clipped birds have been lost to flying away in this country that non clipped. Bird may be able under fear/spooking induced adrenaline rush to fly away but will likely once landed and calm not have the ability to consciously fly back if they wanted to. Likely would greatly reduce plucking and other neurotic behavior. It has been proven to have the exact same effect is humans and most every warm blooded mammal. Vigorous exercise greatly reduces stress and its related neg behavior/conditions. Sorry its not going to get that standing on the cage door flapping its wings for a few minutes a day. No more comparatively than a person would pumping their arms standing versus doing real pushups. As for some of the main reasons given to keep your birds wings clipped: It will get into trouble when I am not watching and its out: So sorry for the huge inconvenience of having to watch your bird when its out or bird proof the room or area it has access to. Comes down to a convenience for the human not the bird. It will fly into things and hurt or kill itself: Hmmmm well again that goes to taking the time and RESPONSIBILITY to make sure those hazards are minimized. Lets face it some how these birds are not running into trees and branches thru the forests. I think its safe to say the major hazards are moving objects and mirrors and clear glass of sufficient size. Given that you make sure the ceiling fans are turned off. Mirrors have objects placed on them so them can be seen. Same with windows if you happen to not have blinds or curtains. Again comes down to a convenience for the human not the bird. If there is an open door or window it can fly out and be gone. This is really the main and IMO only legitimate reason the "clipped camp" has. But also do not forget it will also be able to fly back. A clipped bird very well may still be able to also fly out and away and owner will be far less careful with a clipped bird. But it will not be able to fly back as a flighted bird can. When a flighted bird gets cold hungry thirsty if will at least have the ability to come back which if it has had a great home likely will want to. When you look at all what the bird loses and has lost not only from having its main means of movement taken away but also being in captivity as a whole the few extra things we as their guardians have to do in taking some extra time and precautions so they can have their flight is minuscule in comparison and the least we can do. But having flighted bird does take responsibility. I think most all of the things are very easy to ensure it has a safe environment in the home. The area I think it really takes time and work is acting proactively to do what you can in the case of the bird getting out. The answer to this IMO would be practicing recall work with your bird as often as possible. If you can get your bird to allow a aviator harness even more realistic out door training can take place. Not to mention the bird will then also be use to being outdoor and coming back to you in that environment. Even if it takes years to finally get your bird to allow you to use the harness in that time you can be practicing indoors. Then of course doing any and all other things possible to get it back if it does get out. What it really comes down to is the dedication of the person that has these birds. Look at all the rehomed or given up birds and many of the conditions they lived in. I think its safe to say if may of the people that owned these birds had flighted birds many of these woudl have died slow or terrible deaths. Not that it would have been much worse given how some poor birds are kept. But it is still a fact that the people on this forum and others are usually very dedicated bird owners. I have a feeling we do not represent the typical bird owners unfortunately or at least there is a very large group that are not like us. The issue for these is if they were flighted they likely would never get out of their cages at all or would have likely been injured or died in the home or flown away and faced that possible death. Consider that the above one possible way to look at it is if the above is what the Pet store owners are use to dealing with and where they profit and sales comes from. They want these birds to be the easiest fro their human owners to keep. This opposed to carefully screening each and every buyer and only allowing them to go to what they think with be responsible homes. They want /need the sales so they concentrate on making these birds as easy as possible for people to own and take care of. Now maybe they do not think about this at all and they are only looking at the negatives and to hell with any of the positives for the bird. I again think this is looking thru what is best ( read as "what is most convenient") for the human and not the bird. They may not realize that this what they are doing or how their perspective is but it is. If every owner of birds was as dedicated as they should be or like those on this forum there would be far less birds owned, that is for sure. There would also likely be no need for controls on wild birds taken for the pet trade as it would only be a very small business comparatively. The issue is people purchasing these animals becasue of ignorance, ego, vanity. I am far from an expert in the avain field or specifically on greys. Maybe some of the knowledgeable members here could make a nice detailed Post/Chart on the subject.

It sounds like they got a bad run (lot) of those cages. With these kind of mass produced stuff it does happen from time to time. The bad part is unless the receiving company actually pulls out a few of them and puts them together they will never know until they start to get complaints from sales. As from posts here the company seems to have a good track record and the cage from past seems OK, I would ask them to please pull the cage out and inspect all the parts first and then ship it to you. Now if they drop ship this can not be done. All of this stuff is most likely made in china and then brought here. With that quality can go from great to horrible back to great. It is getting better in the last years but it still does happen. What is actually breaking or broken on these? The welds themselves failing or bent and broke parts from possible rough handling or bad initial assembly of the parts. If its welds actually coming apart I would not want to try my luck with any from that particular lot. If its bent or parts that look mis-assembled or rough handling where you can obviously see its good or bad then OK go till you get a good one. If its welds coming apart then it could look good and hold up for a bit then start failing and you coudl end up with a escaped bird or without knowing what the warranty is on it stuck with a broken cage.

Does anyone know, did this AG ever get placed? I can not believe lurking on here for months and months and I did not see this thread. I could kick myself. Been looking to adopt an AG for a few months now. I live in the area N Va so if she is still in need of a good life long home with someone that is home all day almost every day let me know. We have no small children and have been looking for a Grey exactly like this that is need of a good home and came from a loving home. Tim

If he ends up needing a permanent home I may be interested. I have been looking for a Grey to adopt for a couple months now. I live right down the road 10 miles from Berkley Springs in Cross Junction Va off 522. Let me know and I will give you my phone contact info etc...