tarm

Ha!Ha! Ha!

I do agree that from everything I have learned "punishment" does not work. Not in the way we as humans see punishment. Here is the issue and why its hard for us as humans not to get why dominance does not work or sowing who is "in charge". In human world along with most all animals (not avians) social & family environments we have a dominance structured society. There is an alpha position in each group situation. We recognize this from childhood. It is created and reinforced thru dominance etc. Its our basic organizational setup. Because of this our system of how we learn is based on this. There is always someone "in charge" and a hierarchical setup down to the lowest member. Even our government is setup in this format. There is always somone "in charge". Look at dogs, cats, bears, you name it. They all have this same basic setup. There are differences but they have more to do with recognized behavior with this environment. Now enter birds. They do not usually have this hierarchical setup. They work off the flock mentality. This does not have a hierarchical setup but works off all members working together for the survival and what is best for the flock. There is no one leader. The problem for us humans is from something we, as humans, tend to always do to better cope and bring it into our world of understanding called anthropomorphism (attribute human characteristics and qualities to non human beings). Here this better explains it: The Struggle for Dominance: Fact or Fiction? The old tell tale story of geese is very relevant IMO of understand there flock mentality: Lessons From The Geese It seems very possible any alpha dominance behavior out side of nesting and mating our parrots demonstrate very well maybe learned behavior from us or our misguided behavior along with our misinterpretation of their behavior. Shanlung, I think I have seen you write more than once how you try to interact with your birds thru the eyes of more of an equal such as seen in a more equal friendship. Then using behavior they can understand in this context to illicit behavior you wish. Positive reinforcement for wanted behavior and its withholding for unwanted types.

What is so great is threads like this anywhere else would have been bitter and heated. Amazing how things go when you have general respect. After all we are sharing and learning from each other. Shanlung, I hope that day does come. Thank you for confirming the mash info. Cheers, Tim

Yes but he is just one author of literally thousands and that many more of articles not to mention university testing and research. With anything written by any side in a debate or actually info in general should have multiple sources and be backed up by independent sources. Its why in the beginning I stated I hated list initially only one reference. I think its safe to say I have never seen so much written about any other main stream plant food source as soy recommending against its use. That alone should give pause as that goes beyond quacks extremest or some sort of corp. motives. Consider that this is now overwhelmingly a USA produced crop so it has nothing to do with foreign trade as well. AS far as main stream science you can look up references listed in many of the articles on the net. Here is a link to a list I saved of the abstracts / summaries of research done on soybean and its various compounds and effects. This is the kind of data I look for as more hard science to back up claims. Thing such as research printed in peer reviewed journals or university or medical research. http://www.yuntaa.com/FileManager/Download.aspx?ContentID=8D7BB03AE37461CEE04400144FB7B71E As can be seen its not just a couple tests or only comping from one area for research or medicine or even one country where there could be some sort of biased from invested interest. As I said its fairly main stream. Soy is big money in this country and its now in most all processed foods. I do not have much more to add. More that anything I just wanted to put the info out there for people to consider in there diets for their FIDs as well as themselves. IMO there is simply way to much main stream research and proof linking soy products to serious health issues to thin this product is good for you. You may want to see where all those good for health claims really came and funded from. As far as its positive effects on female issues you may want to ask why that is. Why is it that soy seems to work well on issue where estrogen drugs normally work well. Why soy also seems to have the opposite effects on men. Isoflaviniod the things pro soy and food companies try to promote and a super healthy thing is a plant based estrogen. Anyone one wanting plant based birth control step up Think what that does to developing children? Here are a few links to reports on studies in that area: Study links low sperm with high soy consumption Soy food and isoflavone intake in relation to semen quality parameters among men from an infertility clinic Effects of nutrition relevant mixtures of phytoestrogens on steroidogenesis, aromatase, estrogen, and androgen activity. Taxvig C, Elleby A, Sonne-Hansen K, Bonefeld-Jørgensen EC, Vinggaard AM, Lykkesfeldt AE, Nellemann C. National Food Institute, Technical University of Denmark, Department of Toxicology and Risk Assessment, Søborg, Denmark. camta@food.dtu.dk Abstract Phytoestrogens (PEs) are naturally occurring plant components produced in a large range of plants. They can induce biologic responses in vertebrates by mimicking or modulating the action or production of endogenous hormones. This study examined mixtures of 12 food relevant PEs for effects on steroid hormone production, aromatase activity, estrogenic activity, and for interaction with the androgen receptor. The results show that a mixture of all tested PEs increased estradiol production and decreased testosterone production in H295R human adrenal corticocarcinoma cells, indicating an induced aromatase activity. Furthermore, exposure of the H295R cells to isoflavonoids caused a decrease in testosterone production, and various mixtures of PEs significantly stimulated MCF-7 human breast adenocarcinoma cell growth and induced aromatase activity in JEG-3 choriocarcinoma cells. The estrogenic effect in the MCF7 cells of the isoflavonoid mixture and coumestrol was supported by an observed increase in progesterone receptor protein expression as well as a decreased ERalpha expression. Overall, the results support that nutrition-relevant concentrations of PEs both alone and in mixtures possess various endocrine disrupting effects, all of which need to be considered when assessing the effects on human health. I think I have put out all the info I can on this subject. Anything more IMO is a tune to "beating a dead horse". All I can say is take a look at the hard facts of research and the other data and draw your own conclusions. Even if you fall on the side of it may not be that bad or unsure why in the face of so much concern take the chance when there are plenty of other options, seems like common sense to me.

Darn I just had to check and now I am posting again. I 100% agree there are better things to be doing in life then to get caught up in the countless battles being waged; most all of which are more about someone getting rich or wanting to do so more than anything else. All I will add to this is the links to the studies as I feel those being conducted by universities etc have validity but like you I am never quick to trust any one side of a story. Been there done that and will not being allowing myself to be burned more than once. To change the subject to something more positive. Before I get this shut eye I keep referring to, I have been working on a spread sheet dealing with mashes and foods etc. I would like to share it with you and add add your Tinks mash to it. So I get it 100% current, can you post a link to the reciepe for your current mash. I think I have it but want to confirm as what I am doing is extremely time and labor extensive. I am hoping when finished it may be a a big help for those like you and others that create nutritionally balanced mashes and the like. I am hoping to get it posted up today as I have been very busy in the last 3-4 days. Cheers, Tim

OK just real quick as I have yet to even go to bed and the sun has been up for a couple hours now. I did check the amounts and with a direct spectrometric method which is very accurate it came to phytic acid content (mg/g) was the highest in soybean (36.4mg/g) followed by urd bean (13.7mg/g), pigeonpea (12.7mg/g), mung bean (12.0mg/g) and chickpea (9.6mg/g). On an average, phytic acid constituted 78.2 percent of the total phosphorus content and this percentage figure was the highest in soybean and the lowest in mung bean. This is dried state. Chitra U, Vimala V, Singh U, Geervani P; Plant Foods Hum Nutr 1995 Feb 47:2 163-72 It is the most of any legume or bean. That is specific to legumes and beans and does not include things like grains etc.. The issue is not with the total amount compared to other foods really. It compared to all those other foods including those grains etc, the specific types of phytates sp?, which I will have to look up to specifically list but IIRC there are 16 of them are not effected nearly as much from cooking as all these others are. It is also th4e specif types but as I said I need to look those up specifically. Its what is left after cooking as I understand it. I will have to see if I can find that info out from a reviewed research paper abstract . I only spoke on that one as a reference as it tends to be focuesd on and alot of data about it. But there are still others that are in soy and no removed by boiling such as trypsin inhibitors. These inhibit protein digestion and affect pancreatic function. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors led to stunted growth and pancreatic disorders. Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D, needed for strong bones and normal growth. There is much much more. I am actually in dire need of a fw hours sleep I am starting to have trouble formulating my thoughts so I have got to get some sleep. I will create a PDf of just the abstracts and summaries to save space of numerous studies and research testing etc that has been done in the area of soybeans compounds effects when I get get wake up. I do have to admit is it rather funny that its the greedy Americans that are trying to get everyone to eat soy not any other countries. I would have thought it would have been China at the top for this crop. But no, they make very little soybeans compared to the USA. IIRC, USA 38% of total worlds soybean production. BTW I am a carnivore as well. If you ever happen to be in the States near Washington DC you have a open invitation over to my home for a great steak dinner. I sincerely mean that. I woudl very much like to meet you and speak with you in person as a guess at my home. There are also other toxins that I do believe`are not removed from them with long boiling and soaking etc... Also yes Americans have issues with foods that have a pungent odor or taste unlike Asians. I have had very close friends for large part of my life that were from this area Thialand China, Korea etc I have grow very found of this flavors and odors. Having these foods bring pleasant memories of my time with them. My wife on the other hand thinks I am crazy and thinks is smells and tastes bad. About your methods of cooking with your Tinks mash etc... I was very impressed with your methods to ensure proper processing of lima beans etc. multiple soaks sprouting rinses etc.. It is very helpful when people share things such as these from their cultures as it helps others learn new ways of doing things. Some better, worse, or just different; it all helps us expand our understanding and knowledge. I very much enjoy conversing with you Shanlung. I will post back after some shut eye. Cheers, Tim

Shanlung, ' What are you going around posting listed references for that go against what I am saying. Do you not know that's makes more work for me. HaHaHa. I will double check and look up numbers from some other sources. I use wiki to but there is also a ton of inaccurate info on there as well as anyone can post info. What you say in regards to tofu is directly contrary to what I have read. It lowers it significantly and far more than traditional long boiling of the beans. The specific issues with Phytic acid in soybeans is that they are not effected by traditional cooking nearly as much as all those other beans. Only thing I can think of is that maybe its after cooking that they are speaking of the highest amounts of phytic acid if the wiki ref is accurate. Not sure about the tofu and need to check that number specifically. When people write things very suttle changes in the way they word them can make you think one thing but in fact the meaning is a bit different. No matter either way I will post what I find in support or refute of your findings. Thanks for pulling up that info.

Do not the exact same laws of improper care or abuse apply to everyone including those at the SPCA? I would file charges of abuse against them. Is it not worse when its the people who are suppose to be protecting these creatures. But I am sure just like the rest of of government agencies there are different sets of laws and rules for those and they protect them from actually having to be accountable for their actions.

Most Chinese and other mainland eastern countries at least what I know from long time friends actually eat very little soy that is not either fermented or precipitated processed. In fact looking at the actual figures that I went and found its something like 87% precipitated and 7-9% fermentation products that are consumed in China of soybeans and its products. Tofu and other precipitated products while still having some toxins (phytic acid mostly) have the second lowest amounts with fermented products having insignificant amounts at best. SO very little other soy products are consumed % wise. Many of the soy products are actually American creations trying to get soy into the main stream USA food market which it will never be. Soy burger, soy hot dogs, bacon etc . Given this there is no reason why Chinese or similar cultures would see horrible bad health of the mass populous specifically from soybean consumption. This is not some conspiracy theory type junk there is literally 1000s up on 1000s and paper written on the subject. Population growth can not be used as a indicator as very few people or nations reprodcu3e at rates they are capable of but as a conscious choice. and control. More that effects population growth is social economic conditions and specific cultures. Can you imagine the world if everyone treated reproduction say the way other animal species do? That woudl mean babies every 15-24 months from 14-35 age women. Now that the world has become so much more transient and mixed there is a considerable data that has shows people from countries that consume far less meat traditionally but receive the large majority of there protein from soy bean precipitated products and also consume other soy products that then immigrate to countries that have a mainly meat egg dairy source for there protein off direct offspring tend to be taller with more muscle etc.. While there is way to many variables its is know to be dietary and it is being thought to have to do with actual protein absorption versus amount consumed and better absorption of various vitamins and minerals. If you carefully look at the common diseases and health issue of various countries and cultures and remove effect medical care effects it comes done mostly to the effects of diet and lifestyle. Over all Chinese have been more health becasue of many other reasons. Some of it has to do with diet but more in not eating super highly processed foods such as fast foods etc... They tend to get many times the physical exercise as well. Things have been slowly changing though. But if you look back at what the major health issues were you can see a direct correlation between lower levels of some yet other levels of others comapred to western cultures. Do not forget that not until China discovered fermentation processes and precipitation processes soy beans were considered unfit for human consumption. If all it took was to boil them a bit longer do you not think they would have been used significantly given food shortages at different pints in history. THe reason for this is the fact that soybean has the highest phytate levels of any grain or legume that has been studied, and of the phytates in soy are highly resistant to normal phytate-reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. As I said before there is tons of very technical data and I have to admit plenty of it goes over my head but I am not trying to debate or make anyone change there minds I am only offering up the info and facts on something I felt was specific to our group. One other thing to consider: Currently 90% of all soybeans crops are genetically modified and even higher total % use chemical fertilizers and pesticides.

Wow. I did not think a post that old woudl be up on page one and never bothered to look at the year. I figured it was the typical "had a question, found a form, got the info and left" situation.

you should not use any hay IMO. The health issue is fungus and mold spores. Very common if the hay gets moist or could already be in the hay straight from the field. Not to mention whatever fertilizers etc was used and any kind of other plant matter that is without a doubt in there is small amounts. Hay does not go thru any special processes like human foods do. Its straight from field to market product..

natural supplements to aid in brain damage and for brain health: Icelandic Cod Liver Oil find the very best you can. contains the fatty acids that are used in the brain and neuotrasmitters (omega 3 DHA etc) Octacosanol its found in legumes and wheat germ and the wax of other plants B-12 Folic Acid (b6) Vit C CoQ10 powerful brain cell antioxident and heart too. Alpha Lipoic Acid ALA This potent antioxidant has many positive effects, including preventing stroke damage and protecting the nerve cells of diabetics. But alpha lipoic acid is also one of the few nutrients you can take orally that raises levels of the antioxidant glutathione in brain cells. Acetyl-L-Carnitine can protect the brain from neurotoxicity and oxygen deprivation, preserve cells energy-producing mitochondria and rejuvenate mental and physical function. Normally zinc is very good but unfortunately not in birds. I would start with only the fish oil and see how that works for a month or two. All you have is time after all. Then move to adding the others after clearing it with a vet one at a time on a long introduction schedule. Again clear it with a vet. While I know these are good for brain damage I an not be certain with avians and I have no idea on proper dosing amounts but a avian vet will or should know that or can get it on a bdy wght dose table. Before anything other than the fish oil which is good no matter what if only for D3, I would get a stable living condition and trust as only then you will you be able to accurately access her condition as I am sure you know. It may be nothing more than a super traumatic experience and gets frighten or panicked so bad as to induce a seizure which is known to happen with nervous breeds. Likely has to do with adrenaline overload and blood vessel reaction in the brain to the huge amounts. At least that's my best guess.

Maybe its puting them on a leash and allowing them to fly attached to it. But not a harness with a hand tether that is for taking them out but not for flying. Then again maybe the parrot shop did not stock them and did not want you giving buisness anywhere else.

So its been a week what did the vet say? Did you take him to the vet? Update ?????

Its so hard to know with some of these things if you try to go by personal or referenced experience. Even take chocolate a well known toxin. I had a small cocker spaniel that over his life time must have eaten 10lb + of it. At one time he went thru a 5lb box of godiva chocolate that my grandma had gotten for X-mas and left on the end table. Went thru it before we knew it. He did not even get diarrhea from it. Lived to he was 17. He should have been dead. Yet another dog and big rottie eat maybe 1/2 of lb M&M and was dead the next day. Two different owners tow very different views as to how toxic something is or isn't based on their personal experience ( of course I know better).

You know the couple days were Charlie was super agitated could have not been so much from adjusting to the meds but the fact that he had a ton of pins all starting thru the surface of his skin. That had to make his skin sensitive. Either way glad he seems to be doing well right now and feathers are coming back in.

Not just cancer in men but the way that is caused. Soy have super high estrogenic compounds. They have been definitively proven to act very mush like estrogen. In women it can lead to the same things that estrogen do. Early development etc.. In men gynocimastyia sp? Which is formation of breast tissue in men. Sterility, lower testosterone, loss of sex drive. Fat accumulation. Enlarged prostate. It is actually worse now then ever as there are some many chemical compounds used that have these proprieties. Basically especially in youth it makes boys/men more feminine. body and facial hair etc.. Its a really big issue. Go on any weight lifting bodybuilding site and you will see they run from anything soy. I could go very in depth about eh hows and whys but its off topic for birds and likely very boring to most. Safe to say I will NEVER knowingly allow ANY member of my family to consume a soy based product with the exception of fermented ones such as soy sauce. Much like a few other things if it was not such a huge cheap food source it would likely be considered toxic and not be sold for human consumption. It sure would not be in baby formula. In fact its use there is a violation of FDA regs. It must be given GRAS status to be used as such. They did apply for this status and it was not granted by the FDA. Now what does that tell you? While big money talks knowingly endorsing the poisoning of infants is another. Yet they still turn a blind eye to it. Funny how it has been given drug like claims approval whihc also violated FDA regs. Push to say how good it is for you yet at the same time will not say its "generally recognized as safe". Allowing things like just a small amount included in any food can now carry a label "proven to reduce bad cholesterol". It could have 10lbs of pig lard loaded with trans fats but as long as it includes some soy protein it legally is allowed to carry that label. Talk about complete BS. Everything that gets done to allow people to try to make sure there food is pure the food giants bribe the FDA to corrupt the laws.

Make sure to get the hardback versions of them They both come in soft and hard back. Any book you plan to keep in a collection should be hardback. Even the page paper is higher quailty as is the ink. It is always worth it to pay the extra for hardback IMO.

Shanlung, I agree with your comments and statements.

What I was wanting to point out was the fact that some felt cooked was somehow better or different in its effect on removal of toxins. This says cooked or raw have the toxins. SO its either OK or its not as a whole according to this.

You got luv the laws over there. Don't cut the feathers it's cruel, they should be allow to fly. But its illegal to allow them to fly.

What Robin said but I still would not trust a 3 or under in the room unsupervised even if only lightly as in being close enough to be within very clear ear shot with periodic visual check-ins.. I was very blessed with very obedient children especially when it came to serious matters. I would not have had to worry about mine with a parrot once the rules were laid out.

I know people have asked a number of times on here about onions and some have hinted or thought that cooked is or maybe OK. Here is a summary I happened to save and found recently:

Consider how careful members here are about what they feed and give there FIDs. All the trouble and expense you go to ensuring your birds get the healthiest diet and best care. If I listed these kind of dangers as in the article or what I am typing below to some others food type such as an onion or garlic or "fill in the blank" I am sure no one would be even remotely thinking of feeding to there parrot. I see a number of foods not given and not recommended because they may be bad. If there is a chance of danger people tend to not give them to their parrots. Here you have a food that has tons of evidence on its dangers yet how many bird pellets contain large portions of it? At the very least should we not investigate exactly how soy beans are being processed as they go into our birds pellets. Is it ground up then soaked in a huge vat with all the other beans then heats and extruded? If so how long is the soak? How long and how high is the heat? Or you could simply not run the risk and make sure not to feed your bird soy. Why risk it? Do not forget soy beans are not indigenous plant to where any of our parrots come from. All I know after years of following the attempt at forcing soy down the throats of the population I nor any member of my family will ever knowingly eat any kind of soy product with exception of those fermintated. If they could they woudl be adding it to all food products but thankfully it has not been or will never likely be given GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) status. It actually needed that for its including in baby formula whihc it never received to this day from the FDA. Isn't it nice knowing that the major ingredient in what people are feeding some new borns is has not even been given a "generally recognized as safe" status There's a great one to run a Google search on that should tell you quite a bit about how much the FDA really looks out for the most helpless and pure among us ( our babies) Google Soy Baby Formula GRAS status The issue with soy compared to most all other popular beans is that it actually take more than just cooking even soak and long boil times. While it has certainty been shown that it does significantly decrease the amounts of toxins in them what most people do not understand is just how much is in them in relation to how much are considered toxic given their cumulative nature when you look at serving size versus kg bdy wght. I will have to go digging but there have been numerous independent studies done that show the soy bean is quiet unique compared to most other main stream beans. One has to only look at its nutritional profile to see that is true. I prefer, when making statements to be able to quote more then one source but for times sake will stick with the one I referenced above and try to add links as I go. Goto the last paragraph page 1 continued onto page two You will see this full text of this quote: The rest gets even worse and this is all from the study of what is considered proper cooking of beans and what is meant by "normal cooking methods" in the article. The other cooking method they reference to make soy less toxic to acceptable levels is in this quote and others also referencing it China did not even consider it food quality until the use of fermentation. It was not until it sales had huge economic effect and a growing populous that needed to be fed that it started allowing its use in many other ways. Still today its main use for human consumption is in fermented and precipitated products. Fermintation is the only process that makes them truly safe over the long term to have in a diet. Even the precipitated forum allows toxins to remain as seen here As can be seen here even long term high heat cooking fails to make this bean safe not to mention thru the process makes the protein of little use. Besides given the toxic nature long term of these chemicals I certainly would not be trusting how some companies may or may not be cooking them to ensure they have had the maximum amount of toxins removed. If they actually did other than taste what woudl be the point of eating it as most all its value nutritional has been destroyed. Vitamins are mostly destroyed and the protein no has little bio availability. Considering how sensitive it seems out birds are comapred to us humans when it comes to toxins and chemicals I would be very concerned with feeding soy beans as part of a regular diet. Here is a definitive statement for those looking for some hope in soybeans other than ones made from its fermination. 3 paragraph page 6 as the lead statement. That is a very definitive statement IMO. Also sprouting does not good either as the sprouts are toxic even when cooked. Now doesn't it make you think a bit about all those supposed perfectly formulated pellets that we were told were made up by the Avian nutritionists gods. This info is not some discrete thing its well known. Take a quick look at a Google search: Soybean dangers and you will get all you need. Here is info parrot specific site Dangers of Soy Here is some of the info on the issues in New Zealand that was refereed to. Entire site dedicated to it and soy issues as a whole. http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/01introduction.htm Most people believe if its on the shelve in the store or part of that hot parrot food it must be OK. After all the FDA is there to protect us right!?! Take a look at this info here for a collective of how it SOY is treated given its huge profits great rotation crop and potential. They are trying everything they can do to get USA citizens to accept soy in every product they can get it into as its the gold standard for a super cheap food. To bad its toxic and most of the beneficial claims are at worst bogus and at best misrepresented. How is it that Soy has somehow been able to attain drug like effect claims certified by the FDA. By railroading it thru and disregarding the rules. _________________________________________________________________________________ The best thing I have found to do is swap out soybeans in avian recipes for Lentils which when cooked have the highest protein content of any bean other than soy. Also Kidney beans is another many like to remove as well. It is almost nutritional identical to pinto beans without the negatives associated with kidney beans. Lentils, White Beans, Garbanzo beans combo ( do not have the ratio handy at this moment) but it does take more in total volume make a very good combo to replace a Soybean Kidney bean combo found in a number of recipes. As Garbanzo are popular Fava beans can be used instead with the other two for a close match as well. In which case its .5 cup of each of the three to = .5 cup of both soy and kidney. Or a 1:1 ratio for each bean but a 2:3 ratio total beans It take a good amount of work to find replacements for various foods but be done if you do not mind the time spent going thru a database and making comparative spreadsheets to figure and match it all up. Its even harder when you want to stay with in a specific group such as beans.

shanlung, I do not foresee me ever free flight'n other than in large indoor enclosures such as a warehouse or the like. I very much like what you have created with the harness and use of braided fishing line. That is the only way I think I will ever be allowing outside flight. I have read many of your stories and commentaries. Frankly, I think some of the positions that were found over on the freeflgiht list are fool hardy. Maybe its different with birds such as B@G Scarlets and the other large macaws but from everything I have seen Greys can fly and fly a long ways and very high comparatively. So even if a big Macaw were to not come back it likely would not land out of site given proper and reasonable location choice. A Grey as your experience with Tinkerbell showed can and will fly right out of sight in the certain ( usually spooked) conditions even with no good perching locations for over 5 miles. Harness and line for me. Cheers, Tim