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If he was in those trees near dusk it is almost certain he is camping there for the night. Get out a hour before first light and get in position where you think his calls were coming from. Try hard ot get others out there by first light. Have his food with you and some water. After one night alone he is going to be super happy to see you when he first has light in the morning. You actually hearing his call and the general area and trees is super good news as you know he is near and have a general bead on him. He is not gone or truly lost just geographical misplaced. You are not a bad bird daddy. A bad daddy would not give a crap his bird got out not being just this side of a complete break down from grief.

I messed up and clicked forward a page and lost my post. The one question I did have was one post in the thread you linked above stated Greys produce a active form of D3 on their feathers from sun exposure and that is eaten during preening by them. I had not heard of this before. Is it from you understanding accurate? I had always though it was from the absorption of the UVB rays thru the exposed skin which is around the facial region that caused D3 to be made from its precursors present already.

thanks. I will read it. Maybe Dan will weigh in with some more info. Thanks for this though. I am wanting to make sure I get what will end up working out the best. After all the best time to work these things out is before you have bought something.

YES!!!! This is just the stuff and useful kind of data I love. I actually have a background in nutrition and physical exercise/ training but the human kind not bird. I completely understand and agree with your statement of the key being correct combination of nutrients in proper amounts than that of the actual total amount of the food itself. It is why most multi vita/min packs or tab on the market today are largely self defeating. One key area though that I think points to it being a very good practice to type to keep variety as high as possible given no conflicts is there is still so much we do not understand about the phytonutreints and biological activity of the minute compounds contained in many live foods. Its sad science spends so much time creating new synthetic chemicals and compounds and they do not even know many nature has already created or how/what they can do / be used for. Who knows how many have been lost for ever with the destruction of ancient forests and regions. Judy on the recipe provided in the linked thread can I assume you have the nutrient break down already done? I only ask as I woudl be glad to do it for you if not. Also in your work on nutritional needs or possibly already created is there a recommended or ideal daily intake breakdown of nutrients? I fully understand the need for correct combos to allow proper use and absorption but I wondered if there is a ideal daily allowance chart anyone had done the work on for our Greys. I do not mean to be trending on any kind of proprietary info or for you to give up info that may have coming for long hard work that you have plans for but if there is any info on certain combos that have been found to complement each other in a nutritional sense I am all ears. Links to research or other info on this subject as it pertains to parrots would be great as well. I seem to have a genetic propensity towards acting as a human sponge when it comes to wanting to absorb as much info as possible on subjects that interest me nor I have a need to learn.It is also

Thanks yes I had read those, actually a number of times as I retain it better that way. I read them all again just to make sure I did not miss what I was looking for some how since you posted them. Actually though, I was looking for a bit more in-depth info and possibly generate some discussion. . Such as the reason I was asking about distance and type of bulbs as it greatly effects exposure. For example, moving the UV light half the distance or increasing the height of the basking area (if appropriate) will square the intensity of the UV by a factor equal to half the distance the light is from the bird. In other words if the bird general area is 20 in from the UV source and you move the bulb 10 inches closer (or raise the perch) the bird will get 100 times as much UV. Thus the question. You obviously also need to know the the output power of the bulb. So you can go from not getting enough to do much of anything to getting plenty depending also on length of exposure. My question about florescent versus the flood Mercury vapor versions that tend to also produce heat is because D3 production efficiency has been shown to have a direct link to temperature. Warmer increasing efficiency. Thus again the type of lighting chosen and well as its distance are important factors. As for start and finish time I had wondered given these are equatorial birds there day light is roughly 12 hrs. Even if they do spend some or significant time in shaded areas. Even these areas are getting more uv exposure than given by lamps depending on height and power. Certainly many times more than being indoors in which almost all UV light is filtered out. Compared to full sun areas frankly nothing can fully substitute but certainly UV bulbs go a long way. AS UVB tend to also have microbial killing effects I was wondering if there was any info out there about this effect linking it to plucking issues. ALso in searching the net I came across a interesting study on African Greys http://www.avianmedicine.net/articles/stan-uv.doc and http://www.avianmedicine.net/articles/calcium-vet-record.doc I found it interesting that ionized calcium instead of total calcium is what needs to be monitored in accessing issues. I did not know how well know this info was or whether it is info is fully agreed upon. Also does anyone know if our Greys can store D3 for later use the way a number of other animals can or is it something that has a short useful life in a birds system? But as far as UV exposure short of an out door aviary indoor supplementation is needed. I figure we woudl want to get close to the exposure they have in nature. But since there is no way we will be duplicating the intensity of equatorial sun exposure we want to at least get enough to allow for full processing of D3 going over somewhat would seem prudent to ensure proper exposure is reached. As there is no harm in to much D3 creation as from what I understand any surplus is turned into harmless D3 to two biologically inactive compounds. So no need to be concerned with hypervitaminosis of D such as is the case when its given supplementary thru diet. An area where UV supplementation has been study extensively with indoor care of pets is the reptile trade. Likely more than for any other group of animal. While these are very different creatures many tend to come from the same regions and thus much of there data for comparable exposure can be helpful. From bone development, pigment color and intensity, behaviors, food selection, prevention of skin disorders and microorganism infestations. I did read one zoo creator I think it was state that one rough guide for judging enough UV exposure was the new paper should turn yellow within a day. Go figured I guess if works for him.

I wanted to add to this that IMO you should only be using the Vaporizer steam producing humidifiers. The cool mist / ultra sonic/ cool humidifiers that do not use heat to produce steam but instead use a misting spray action are the ideal breading grounds for mold and bacteria and fungus and are the ideal transporters of them to you and your birds. They act very much like a nebulizer basically taking any and all chemicals particles spores bacteria etc that may be in that water etc and making them and inhalant that allows it directly into your birds lungs. No matter how careful you are about cleaning you have many times greater risk using these cool mist type humidifiers. With the hot water steam types you are only getting distilled sterilized water vapor. Steam humidifiers are the only ones recommended for use with infants because of this and their less developed immune systems. Its a shame this is the way they are as the cool mist ones are nice in they create far great amounts and are much easier to precisely control that heated steam ones. Likely use less power to. They look cool to and make you feel like they are doing a great job with their impressive spray of visible mist. But the dangers IMO are just not worth it if just one time you end up causing your bird to inhale dangerous fungal or bacterial spores into their lungs. Now the fan type cool water humidifiers are not as bad apparently as they use evaporation to humidify the air. They are not like these cool misting ones which are in effect turning the water into a super fine spray that has the water particle size of misting spraying super fine rain along with anything in the water small enough to stay trapped in the small water droplets. The heater and fan driven evaporator types do not have this danger. The safest being the steam heated version as it is sterilizing any water that is turned into steam. The other issue is the heated types tend to raise the temp int eh immediate area thus allowing a higher humidity content to be held in the surrounding air. With cool mist types much of the water ends up stuck and adhering to objects and the floor in the room thus creating even more issues. Where as with heated steam more will tend to stay trapped in the air thus keeping the actual air humidity higher.

Do you have it on a set timing for sun up and down? Are you using the less powerful florescent or the more powerful Mercury Vapor floods? For those that are using them what kind of schedule do you have them on? on and off times? How far away from the cage top?

I have a few cast Irons pans that are from my great grandmother passed down from my grandmother. They are from the 1800's. Then a few more from my grandmother that recently pasted at the age of 101 healthy living on her own right up till the last two weeks. So I have a number of pieces that are 70 to over 100 years old. They actually cook the best too HaHa. We just recently ( a year ago) purchased a Lodge CI full sized WOK as well as earlier yet some bread pans for corn bread meatloafs etc.. I think my wife is trying to find a bunt cake pan in CI as well. We use out dutch oven when we go native and also used it in our old fireplace sometimes.

Best of luck to you and Charlies.

Shanlung, Great to see you posting here. I did not realize you were a member her. I stumbled upon your pages from the manna mash yahoo list. I have very much enjoyed reading all your accounts of your life with your family and birds. I have also learned a great deal and giving me new direction to look in to increase my knowledge of keeping these great birds. Thanks for your input here and I could not agree more. BTW, I was very impressed with the simplicity yet great functionality of your flying harness design. Tim

OK that makes much more sense then. I have just seen a number of posts where pellets make the majority of the base food. The thing I can see to be concerned with, along with chemicals snuck in there, is : Most of these pellets are made up using non organic chemical based vitamins and minerals to provide the full amount needed daily by our birds. We all know the body does not absorbed these as readily so the amounts have to be increased which is fine if they have it correct. Even with it being the correct balance of supplements the body still has to process all of those byproducts from the increased amounts needed to get a faction of the total to be absorbed. As much of it is not absorbed it must be processed out of the body which puts the work load on the bird's organs such as the kidneys and liver. It is also dead food. I think mashes in combo with fresh live assortment and varied foods gets your bird all its needs and much more of the live and natural vitamins that no supplement can. I guess my thinking is I would rather my bird to get more live foods to get the nutrients it needs than to take up food space with dead foods using inorganic supplements. I really like the USDA food nutritional info database site. It breaks down in detail both macro and micro nutritional content for just about ever food and in a number of forms i.e. cooked , raw frozen, etc.. You really know what your bird is getting in the foods you supply it. Is there a area on this forum where people post there recipes for the mashes, seed mix, fruit and veg salad mixes, etc..? I have modified a recipe MS Access database to work for our birds various foods. I have added attachment links to including the actual detailed nutritional break down of not only each ingredient in its amount called for in the recipe but also the combined total of the finished recipe. It can then easily be divided by the actual daily serving amount to give the daily break down of all individual nutrients. This is also great if you ever have a set nutritional profile you want to follow or want to make a substitution of one ingredient for something else you can find the food and amount that will work or combination there of to reach the replacement amount. If you need to increase certain nutrients it will allow you to choose portion to get the wanted dose of a particular nutrient/s. If people want to post up recipes they use or have created I can enter them into my database, look up and attach the USDA nutrient data and can post the actual nutritional data. If I get a daily or serving portion I can further break it down to that. Figured that might be of some help to people and I would offer it up. Right now I am just about finished with Mike's Manna Mash. Hope to get it done tonight. That is a long list of ingredients and what I plan to use for my mash. But I will then start inputting and looking up other recipes I have found such as some from Pamela Clark and others I found searching. It takes some time but I think it will be nice to have recipes and there nutritional value there to use as wanted. They also will give ideas of some nutrients that may only be provided by certain foods in a birds diet. Also gaps or missing things.

Do not many people make their own mashes on here rather than pellets for a base and then add varying fresh foods?

We use nothing but cast iron and for large pots SS. I have found nothing that can cook as evenly and as well as a well seasoned cast iron pan. It does weight more but its not like you are flipping flap jacks with it. When they are well seasoned they are almost nonstick. Easy to clean as long as you do not let them sit. Best of all if you buy good quailty Made in the USA such as "Lodge" brand and properly maintain them they will last hundreds of years. No worries of warping or burning one up. But drop one and it can and will break toes feet and depending on the type of floor it too. We also use no aluminum cans etc.. No plastics or Tupperware stuff either. I do not trust for one minute any type of plastics around any heat. I know they say some are safe and do not give off toxins but I have trouble with believing much of anything anymore I am told by these companies. So for us its Cast Iron, Stainless Steel, Glass. We also go so far as paying the extra to get our bottles stuff in glass instead of plastic which can be a PITA as everything moist or liquid comes in plastic containers now. We do can our veggies jams etc each season so no glass jars go to waste. The hardest thing though was getting rid of the microwave but when you see what it does to the foods heated in it at the molecular level its not worth it. I think if more people read up on microwaves and the dangers less people woudl be using them. What's the point to going to all the trouble of getting organic foods, cooking with nontoxic cookware, only to kill the mirco nutrients in the food along with other things. The destruction of nutrients is far greater than any other kind of conventional cooking methods and that it only part of the negs to using it. But it sure is convenient to heat thing up and fast so fast. But it too is gone and gone for good.

I do not know much about your greys personality but is a aviator harness at all a possibility to work on getting her to accept? If that worked out then if you ever did choose to allow the flight feathers to grow out and not clip it could lead to allow outdoor flight time. I know all of this can be a bird to bird thing.

Congrats!!. That is great. The joy flying even if just short flights indoors brings them is so gratifying.

Thanks. I did not think of the hanging beads. What I liked about the idea was it is quickly removable. It can be up most all the time and then can be taken down if you entertain. The way our house is the foyer is around the corner from the family room so it should not be to frightening as it woudl be out of site. We will see as I think I may try this out.

I know this might not work in all door foyer setups but could not a 2 piece shear curtain be hung on say a pressure rod in front of the door/ door way/ foyer. That way when someone came in or out they had that apparent barrier that should prevent a bird from flying out an open door as I woudl think any bird woudl not think to bust thru it in flight even though it likely could. It would see it as a wall of sorts. For houses where people are coming in and out all the time this could help add a extra step of security. It woudl function much the way walk-in freeze door flaps work. They are easy for us to walk in and out of but still create a barrier that something like a bird would not happen to be able to, while in flight, dart out. The way my front door is and the foyer I can hang a push rod up with a set of shear curtains. If we have actual formal company or a real get together where the bird will be in its cage or another room it is instantaneous to take down and put back up. Anyway thought I woudl throw that out there as a possible idea.

Thanks for the links.

And just becasue someone or even a group disagrees with your position or opinion does not mean you are being persecuted. Hey its your bird its up to you but forums are meant for generating discussion and giving opinions. To "Persecute" means to oppress or harass or to otherwise go out of your way to be hostile towards someone in this case for a belief. Show me exactly who has gone out of there way to do these things liike this to you on here? Rather than crying foul why not explain why you support clipping and how it liis better for the birds? I could easily debate both sides of it even though I have a personal position. I can see times where it may be necessary to do light clippings on birds but as a general rule I think it should be the exception not the standard. That is the real issue for me. Without any thought to the negatives to the bird for such a long time the standard practice was to clip. Lets be real and honest clipping is not done for the birds interests its done of the human owners best interests. If you really had the best interests for the bird in mind you would not purchase a bird if you knowinly planned to clip it. Now rehome etc gets things murky and I can see it giving a better life and this goes back to what I said before it may have its place but should in no way be the standard without serious considerations. As far as vets supporting this I can also show you a ton of vets that think all kinds of things that are flat out 100% been proven to be incorrect and bad. More is learned everyday and positions and recommendations are changed to accommodate what is learned. Further,wing clipping is not only not popular but actually seen as animal cruelty in a number of countries in Europe. These are actual entire countries that have looked at the issue and felt so strongly they passed legislation.

Wow as I am somewhat new here I did not realize he was that young. It would sure be nice if it were easier in understanding the reasons behind some of their actions when times are like this. So he does not want anything to do with directly interacting with you from taking him out of the cage to stepping up. While he has been coming to Kate at the same time he is biting her as well. At the same time even though he does not want direct interaction he still seems to want to be close enough to you to follow you when you start to go out of eye shot. Wow. :confused: You have been back from vacation for what about a week now?

I am really sorry how badly he took being away from you guys. I am sure time is what is needed. It is always amazing how our friend's extreme intelligence so many times is a double edged sword. It would sure be nice if they could tell in ways we could easily understand what the issue is.

Don't have much experience and even less with Greys but looking at if from a Greys perspective with the whole flock mentality think : Assuming you were the flock leader and you left and abandoned him for two weeks in his eyes. I would say he could have lost confidence in you as the flock leader and it may take some time to earn that back. Maybe a bit of positive reinforcement training with the whole treat and basic step up drills etc. Kind of starting at the beginning to use it as a confidence builder or rebuilder in this instance? Something simple and fun for the bird and you that can get you two to rebond. Anyways just figured I would throw that out there. Can Kate take him out without issue first thing in the morning? If so then I think that sure points to that its you that he has lost confidence in or is still pissed off at.

Ok I knew it its a contraceptive. It can be used in males as well where it acts as a chemical castration. Its main use is in dogs and cats as a option to neutering and spading. The action is said to work for 6 months but findings have shown 18-24 months. This is again becasue of the havoc it causes to our gonotropin production and associated hormones. It actually is being used in the avian medicine but not so much for plucking but as a way to correct hyper egg laying and the associated behavior. It seems it is being used by a somewhat popular avian vet Neil Forbes in the UK in Swindon IIRC. Along with egg laying it has also shown promise in helping correct "frustrated breeder behavior" particularly with hand reared birds trying to mate with their owners. It is used to correct these behaviors. This also maybe the key to how it may be able to help feather plucking. Especially if the root cause is what is basically a neurotic behavioral issue that has some hormonal connection. Suprelorin is a chemical switch (Gonadotrophin agonist) that hopefully with its use turns this behavior off. The implant works for 18 - 24 months. Hopefully once this behavior is broken if it works it will not return as the drug slowly dissipates from the system. As far as long term on going use the studies were mainly done on dogs and cats and no negative side effects were noted after 8 years of constant use so that is at least some good news on that front. In its use for both the persistent egg lay and frustrated breeder issues it has been said to be highly successful by the reports from the two vets that had reported its use. I can take a few weeks for it to start to have a noticeable effect in those uses. Another similar drug is Deslorelin you may see mentioned in researching Suprelorin. Ok just did a bit more digging and I found some posts about it being used for a egg laying issue but also hormonal plucking. It worked very well for that. So the good and bad of the whole thing is if the plucking has a hormonal component it show have a very good chance of helping. If not then it likely will not. Another drug that is in the same action family that is also being used and you may see is Lupron (leuprorelin acetate). I went and did some digging on hormonal feather plucking ande under it these drugs and indeed openly recommended: "Many parrots pluck their chest area as they mature and get into breeding condition. Another typical plucking patterns for hormonal birds may be plucking between their legs. Hope this was of some help and at least eases your mind about its use for your bird. I hope it does turn out that this works. Tim One bird plucked his chest when he was forced to watch a breeding pair of the same species that were temporarily placed into his room. As soon as the pair was relocated, the plucking stopped. In some cases, a vet may prescribe Lupron shots to reduce hormonal behavior. The drug Lupron turns off sexual hormones. Some bird owners report that hormonal plucking started immediately after administration of this drug and never started again. It works if the plucking is caused by hormonal frustration. However, vets first recommend that pet owners make environmental changes to reduce sexual triggers, such as removing mirrors or nest boxes and to prevent hormonal stimulation such as petting that induces this behavior, and altering the light cycle to mimic winter sunlight. If all these changes fail than drug therapy may be warranted. Drug therapy is most effective in females but has also shown effectiveness in males." As I understand it: Suprelorin, Deslorelin, Lupron (leuprorelin acetate) are Gonadotrophin agonists. They have an inhibitory effect on the pituitary that should reduce and or temporarily eliminate the hormones FSH and LH being produced and released. This drug has been used in birds for chronic egg laying, hormonal aggression and feather picking. Again, this is not a perfect drug and certainly not for all situations. If it turns out to be hormonal here is some good info and also how to reduce triggers I found while searching this http://www.avianweb.com/sexualbehaviorinbirds.html Some more good news was a number of the posts I saw it mentioned being used and being successful where on African Greys.

Ok I will dig and see what I can find out for you and others on it. I am super super leery of implants as I have seen very few that used drugs that did not have a long slew of bad side effects. In humans as we all know its mainly a birth control avenue as well as for long term treatment for certain diseases. I know all you want is a healthy bird and if this works it could well be worth any possible risk that make come with it. My main concern is that is was a corticosteroid or hormone as these things really do a number on all animals endocrine systems and it can take a long time for them to get back into wack. But I have no idea what kind of drug that is in that implant. Let me see what I can find out. Thanks for taking the time to get me the info. I really hope and pray your feathered challenged friend gets better soon.

If you can recall what drug is in the implant they are using in Charlie?