harmonicaman68

Hi Wolfspirit, Welcome to the group. I've only been reading the comments and questions here for a short time, but Judy is right. There is much wisdom on this site. Have fun ... as you know ... being chosen by a Grey is a blessing. The picture looks Good:) Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/04 02:44<br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/04 02:44

If you haven't seen the pics of Hartman Aviary, they are posted with my profile.

Hi chimaysmommy, The hyacinth is there ... in fact there are two. Patsy is featured on the Birdsitter DVD cuddling with both simultaneously :cheer: Steve does use the hand feedings to help bond his babies with their new Parronts. He doesn't allow them to go home with you unless the baby has been flying for at least a week. He also does a good job of helping the new owners learn to hand feed. I had hand fed our Sun Conure prior to getting Ziva, our TAG, but Steve still went through the training with Terri and me and answered all follow up questions. We were both better trained by him than I was with Mali, our Sun. with Mali, the pet shop/breeder sent home food and a syringe and said "follow the mixing directions and don't let the food be higher than 105 degrees F". ... that was it I felt confident after going through Steve's training. You would do fine if you decide to try it with your next bird:) and it is a real blessing to have that experience with your new baby:cheer:

Hartman Aviary is just north of a suburb of Columbus, Ohio by the name of Westerville. Westerville is on the northeast corner of Columbus just outside the 270 outerbelt. You would get there by driving to Columbus and going around the east side of town on the outerbelt (270). If you get off 270 on State Rt 3, go north through Westerville and travel 7 minutes north of Westerville you will be there. (you turn off State Rt 3 and go west. If you go to www.hartmanaviary.com/ and put your cursor over the words "contact us", you will see "directions" on the pop out menu. Click it and you can get to a map and written directions. If you have any troubles, just send me an email and Terri and I will help you find the place. It's easy, but might take someone leading you there the first time. Parkersburg is close enough to Columbus to make a nice day trip on an autumn Saturday. Steve has a cookout on Sept 19th that a number of guests look forward to attending. A great way to end the summer open houses

I'm glad it is working out. To hear that Ziva's vocabulary has increased and that you both are developing mutually acceptable ways of handling things is also very encouraging. The intelligence of Greys and the common sense that brings to interacting continues to amaze me. Thanks for your contributions by sharing with all of us on this site. It's encouraging to those of us who know something about relating to other parrot kinds, but little about association with Greys.

Ziva and me. (Jack) Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/02 02:50 Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/02 03:00<br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/06 22:44

How long have you had Rishi and how old is he? By the way ... I like the photos you have posted to your profile page:)

I'm glad you liked the photos. They don't show all of the details, but they give a sense of how to do a moderate cost, functional outdoor space that the birds love. Last week Steve installed a large cargo net that had been surplus when a children's playground was being changed. I helped Steve Hartman put it up in one of the flights for moderate sized birds (Amazons). They love it. It moves as they climb over it and we dangled shiny hardware from various points. It makes me think how important the contents are as the perimeter fades into the background. Someone had posted that they heard the birds don't concentrate on the perimeter and therefore zinc coating of the perimeter doesn't matter. From what I've seen this is true for some bird kinds. The only variety that I've seen hanging on the fence perimeter frequently are the Macaws and Cockatoos (hanging). They don't seem to chew on the fence walls and roof even though they hang (and climb) there from time to time. Most varieties of parrots seem to enjoy the natural wood branches that are chained, wired or otherwise supported across the aviary flights. For members of this post who have the resources to provide larger flights that appear more "finished" (less industrial?), there are always opportunities to spend more on the outdoor flights. Steve has chosen to spend less on the basic structure and more on contents and the landscape (even interior natural plants for the birds). The flights will eventually need maintenance and his approach allows easy replacement of components without him relying on a custom manufacturer still being in business to provide the custom part. I believe he chose the materials he did for these practical reasons, and the method has worked for him. He has been raising parrots in these structures for over 30 years and has species such as Macaws which have been bred for gentleness by him to the point that he is now breeding the great grandchildren of his first birds to get the 4th generation (to my knowledge). It may be more. The materials have held up well and the birds are healthy and well adjusted.

I just posted aviary construction photos in the photo album. I remembered incorrectly on some of the construction techniques. In the photo album I posted the photos as "Hartman Aviary" with keywords "Aviary Construction". Enjoy.

I was sorry to hear about Gracie. Terri and I lost Mali due to similar causes about the end of June for similar causes. She was at a point in her cycle where she was laying and she didn't become egg bound, but had an egg not form all the way and go bad inside of her. The avian vet told us there was nothing we could have done or anticipated that could have stopped or reversed the process and it all happened SO fast. She was gone in a very short time. So don't blame yourself. I know that is a temptation, and we all second guess ourselves. Don't beat yourself up. Just enjoy to good memories. How is your flock doing?<br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/08/29 12:03

If yours are like our Ziva ... when we tell her "no" or push her away from something, she wants it all the more. I actually think that if I ignore her getting into something, she loses interest sooner. For instance, moving her off of the computer keyboard guarantees she will be there for 20 minutes unless I find something else to distract her.

The bottom is addressed by having the 2 inch diameter galvanized steel pipe running horizontal and touching the ground. The wire fence is tied to the pipe by steel wire at intervals close enough to keep animals from pushing between the fence walls of the flight and the pipe. Ohio has its share of burrowing animals like groundhogs. I can think of a couple of ways to stop the critters from burrowing underneath, but I'm going out to Steve's aviary tomorrow (Saturday) and will take a couple of photos that can be posted here. The photos I have already posted show the flight wall meeting the concrete of the baby cage, but I don't have any for the flight wall fencing meeting turf in the adult flights. Tying the fence by wiring to the bottom horizontal rail allows the fence walls to touch the concrete floor by running past the bottom horizontal pipe as required to achieve closure. I don't think that Steve buries the fence in the ground where there are turf floors, because that would eventually corrode due to interaction of the metal with the soil. That said, it would require that the owner of the aviary inspect the bottom periodically to assure that other critters weren't digging underneath the wire to gain access to food that has spilled. Burying steel edging as used around landscape planting beds to separate lawn from mulch would hinder burrowing, but a determined large animal would be stopped best by our own periodic visual inspection. I'll get the photos and post them tomorrow late afternoon U.S. eastern time when we return form Hartman's. Steve may have a recommendation. I'll ask.

I retired in 2005 from an architectural firm and went on staff at Grace Brethren Church in Columbus, Ohio. We were doing an early childhood center addition and the pastor in charge of facilities was retiring ... so they offered me a position overseeing facilities of the church and Christian school. As an extra job for a few years, I also did the interface between the church, architect, and contractor during the project. Long story short, my office and reception area are in one of our warehouses on the property. It works great, because the eleven guys working with me don't care how my office is decorated and all of the other staff are in the main church structure, the administrative center or the school buildings. Ziva comes to work with me 2 or 3 days a week (to keep our grandchildren from stressing her out too much, since my wife cares for them when parents are at work.) ... or I use that as an excuse to hang out with Ziva more <br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/08/28 13:32

I like the cage ... actually the bird on the outside and the human on the inside is not a bad idea. I take Ziva to work with me and sometimes she's so playful I can't get work done. This approach to redecorating my office would insure I did my work uninterrupted while she got the run of the place. Just put the desk, chair and computer inside and leave the bookshelves, shades, plants, pictures and other playthings outside for her. She gets more flying space and my boss receives my work assignments complete and timely :blink:

I'll give you a karma too ... now that I know what they are. Thanks for contributing to this conversation and helping newbies like me to understand the various things we can do for each other:)

Great pics of Yoshi ... I love the bird's personalities at this age.

Hi Marions91, An outdoor aviary is a great idea. One of the simplest to construct that I have seen is the type that Steve Hartman builds at his aviary. If you click on my profile and look at the photos, you'll see some photos that include his style of building. He uses wire fence that has a 1 inch by 2 inch opening in the fabric structure. He uses a structure of galvanized steel water pipe and the fence fabric is "stitched" together at the edges of the fence with a steel staple that can be crimped into a circle so the points are turned in and not sharp. For water, he runs a "drip" of small 1/4 inch hose or aquarium tubing. Practically any tubing like flexible PVC tubing would do, getting the water to the end, but then use a transition fitting to reduce to the small tubing. He turns that water on for a slow drip and the birds notice it and learn to fly to the end and get a drink from the downward pointing hose ends. I've noticed that he provides a few sheets of plywood here and there wired to the top of the fence fabric roof and then places branches for perches that are in the sun and in the shade. The birds are intelligent enough to choose their perch in sun or shade as they desire. The larger flights have the natural ground for floors and some parts are weed whipped short while the remainder may have plants that are allowed to grow to to 5 feet in height or taller. The baby cage has a concrete floor, because young birds aren't foraging yet and it allows easy wash down with a high pressure hose. Food is placed in troughs that are constructed of 6 inch diameter PVC pipe that has been cut in half lengthwise and wired to the side wall of the flights under the plywood shade of the partial roofs. That allows the food to remain dry if it is raining. The PVC trough is sloped so that one end is low and one high. Then Steve can wash down a trough at the end of the day before new food is added. In the situation where fewer birds are in a flight (home use instead of breeder) the food trough could be shortened. I think that Steve's method of getting water to the birds is superior to a water bowl because it doesn't require washing out the bowl and matches more closely the hygiene of large bird raising operations that have been developed to limit the transmission of disease between birds. Food can't be dropped in the bowl and cause build-up of bacteria. I've been considering an aviary as well and this method is easy, economical, practical to build, maintain and repair, and when landscaped, can have a nice appearance.

I was reading your posts and feeling for you and your situation. Has your Ziva's behavior changed over the months? As I was reading your posts, the overall impression I got was that your Ziva was going through a communications crisis. Her previous owner had probably said certain things in response to the words that Ziva vocalizes. You don't know those responses and when you can't give them back ... it's like you are speaking different languages (even though you know the words). Similar to someone who is from England asking for a spanner and someone from the U.S. not responding because we would not recognize "spanner" as asking for a wrench even though we knew many common words. Poor Ziva has to build a new language that will get her positive responses. As you give positive responses to acceptable words and sounds, Ziva will learn which sounds are getting a response and will speak them more. (by the way, in absence of positive responses, any response will do ... as with the zapper sound). At the time of your post, Ziva was just trying to get responses, positive or negative. She really prefers positive if available. Similar to what you are doing in her play time. She hangs off the cage because she sees it is pleasing to you. She obviously (from your posts) wants to know you and connect. I'm hoping in the months you have had together that more positive connections were developed and the negative were left behind as Ziva learned from you ignoring unacceptable behavior (or putting her in "time-out"), not to do it. The advice that was given has been a boost to me too. We're all trying to find out what works.

Hi Natalia ... even someone who has been owned by a bird for years finds wonderful information (and friends) here. Also, each type of bird is different and there also seem to be variations within a kind like Greys. I'm still trying to get used to the intelligence of our Ziva. She cuddled yesterday when I got home for over an hour, making the soft noises of a baby Grey ... then played and flew for over an hour, not really wanting to be held. During that later play, she only wanted to be in the same room as us and to explore EVERYTHING :-) Later, she was quiet and was content sitting and chewing on some Swiss Chard. She is just like a toddler. I'm learning, never underestimate a Grey Welcome! Enjoy the articles and advice ... and be sure to post photos of Ganzha.

I just joined Grey Forums and saw this topic on the Aviator Harness. I'm glad you had a good experience ordering through Steve Hartman. I'm not surprised at his persistence in getting it to you or in him not letting you pay extra. His aviary is where I recently bought my Grey, Ziva. I've known Steve for about 12 years, and he has not only been the source of some great free advice on our Sun and now our TAG over the years, I've known him to be honest with folks he deals with. As a part of his socialization of his baby parrots, he has an open house each Saturday afternoon during the summer. There will always be new families bringing children to see and feed his adult birds in the large flights and some to sit in the baby cage, holding little babies on towels on their laps Since I've inevitably been around during my visits with Mali and Ziva, to see a number of business transactions, I've seen many happy customers as well. I'm happy to read here that Steve is as generous and honest when dealing with folks at a distance through the mail. Since today is Saturday, I happen to be going to the Hartman Aviary this afternoon to take Ziva back for some socialization time (with other parrots and with strangers). (Steve offers this service to any who get parrots from him). I was going to take my camera so I could provide some pictures of Ziva that Judy requested I post here. I'll try to take a few photos of Steve's facilities at Hartman Aviary. It may help you feel more comfortable in working with Steve in the future. Steve actually invented the Aviator and its associated products like the Flight Line and Bird Sitter DVD. He is all about doing things that make the parrots more comfortable and allow the people they own and to keep the parrots flighted. He is also all about doing things that help increase the communication and intelligence of each parrot. He believes this is influenced by both having them remain flighted and by not only bird to human communication, but by letting them observe bird to bird communication as with the Bird Sitter DVD (or my visits back to his aviary with Ziva). I don't have Steve's education concerning parrot raising, but I've seen his methods work and so, am happy to hear that there are folks on this website who are owned by Greys and who are using the Aviator and the DVD to help their friendship with their feathered buddies.<br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/08/22 14:51

Hi Judy, I agree with you. I don't know if the bubble will burst or not. Ziva continues to do things that Mali didn't do. For instance, when I got home today, she flew into the family room, flew down to the floor where I was sitting on the floor, laying out some toys from our grandchildren's play kitchen for her. (I had previously introduced her to them the previous two days). She proceeded to wrestle with a set of toy measuring spoons and tipped over a play tea pot. My wife started laughing ... and I looked up. Ziva had rolled with the spoons ... was laying on her back on the floor with the spoons being held above her in her feet. Then, after 30 or 45 seconds of play, she got up, ran after a plastic egg, pushed it around for a few minutes. Then she did the measuring spoon thing on her back again. I laid partially on the floor watching her. She saw me, abandoned the egg, scooted across the carpet and began snuggling with me while making these soft "snuggling" noises. She flew to the top of the refrigerator where we have a perch for her ... then back to my wife's hand in the family room where Terri was sitting in a chair, and back to the floor near me for more snuggles. I'm waiting for the independence and hopefully only temporary aloofness that Steve Hartman said is usual as parrots gain skill in flying. He said when that happens, we need to wait for Ziva to decide to re-join and re-establish the playful times. He has assured me that this will happen, but we're just enjoying this moment in her development while it is here.:cheer:

Hi Pugman ... your work with Sophie is beautiful. What an encouragement it is to hear your story together, and also what a reward you'll have as your friendship with her grows. Greys are SO intelligent. I'm constantly amazed that they distinguish between each human they meet. When we are adopted by a Grey, we have a friend who actually discerns between those they know and those they haven't yet come to trust. It's a privilege when they decide that we are valuable to them. Blessings as you continue this adventure:)

How old is Dudley? If you want him to learn to fly without crashing, you might try a harness and maybe the "flight line". Then Dudley could practice outside and learn to hover as he comes to you. If you fly him between you and someone else that he trusts, you can train him to land on a hand. If he is young enough, the pathways in his brain can still be formed so he can maneuver safely, avoid objects and surfaces and land without crashing. We had a Sun that came to us clipped from the pet store. We let her flight feathers remain unclipped from that point. She never flew as a fully flighted bird does, but she learned she could avoid danger, and she flew some. She learned to avoid objects, walls and windows. It just takes some time and practice. It certainly made her life more enjoyable (and safer) than being fully dependent on humans for everything. With wings clipped she was cautiously playful. With wings unclipped her personality bloomed. You must do as you see fit (and what you have experienced is safest), but please consider some training alternatives if you haven't already.

Hi, I just joined Grey Forums and am somewhat new to blog sites, so please forgive if I mess up with protocols. My wife and I had a red factor Sun Conure named Mali who died recently. (We we're breeding her and an egg went septic). She was beautiful and of such a loving and laid back temperament. She was great with children (and small grandchildren). We've been trying to adjust to her being gone after having her for 16 years (from when she was only 10 weeks old). We studied up on who we might bring into our lives and a friend, Steve Hartman of Hartman Aviary introduced us to Ziva. She's a beautiful TAG who has been wonderfully socialized by Steve and his volunteers. She was about 13 weeks old when we brought her home, and we've been owned by her for 4 weeks. You would think that she was born in our home. I've been amazed at how she has taken to us. The big project now has been to get her comfortable with every visitor. I take her to work with me a couple days a week. She is shy, but lets everyone approach her and she steps up for all my co-workers and their children. More surprising is finding she is cuddly and a playful friend that is every bit as playful and fun loving as Mali was. From the reading we have been doing on Greys, we have high hopes. It is amazing how intelligent these beautiful Greys are. It is fun to meet all of you on Grey Forums ... and to read about each of your experiences. We hope to learn from each of you and to contribute where we can

I have discussed wing clipping extensively with Steve Hartman of Hartman Aviary in the Columbus Ohio area. For many years, he has been a huge advocate for not clipping a bird's wings. His scientific reasoning is that the pathways in the bird's brain never form properly if the bird is hindered in movement. Similar to what would happen if we decided to cut off our children's legs to make them more manageable when they reached the age of 2 and started to get into everything saying "no" when we tried to stop them. It would change the way they thought and the way they interacted with family, friends and strangers. Steve has some things written on many topics including wing clipping, on his website at http://theparrotuniversity.com/index.php Clipping might even lead to some unsocial behaviors like biting, if the bird feels that is the only way to avoid danger. Flying is a non-aggressive form of defense. That option has now temporarily been taken away. ConnieLu, the good news is that your beautiful Grey Boobie Lu had already learned to fly. Many of the brain pathways were formed in her previously. (much better than having wings clipped and never having those brain pathways created, because the potential for those pathways being established is only there in the first few months to first year of life). Keep her safe from falling and being injured. Keep her comfortable when strangers are about, so she doesn't resort to biting. When the next molt occurs and the flight feathers are restored, her gregarious personality may return. I'd love to hear an update on your beautiful Grey. Don't be surprised if there are some trust issues for awhile. If my wings were clipped and I finally got back my abilities, my chosen perch may be a bit higher. She is intelligent and was wonderfully socialized and obviously loves you. That trusting love will hopefully restore the fun loving nature she displayed as her freedoms are returned to her.