harmonicaman68

I assumed it survived also. Sorry about the ending, but is was REALLY cute. God does nice work Cool design ...

Hi Dan and Jillybeanz, I passed your comments back to Steve. Blessings to you today

Hi Judy, I don't know the kind ... knowing little of the deer in the part of the world where it was saved. Around here (Ohio, US)I'd say it is a white tail, but maybe someone nearer to Tiggywinkles Wildlife Hospital can tell us.

Hi Jilly, I agree ... it seems that accompanying and observing the Grey's who have adopted us is the best precaution against accidents. I was kidding Steve about the stuffed bird they have in the video last Saturday as he was telling someone how easy the harness is to put on the birds He laughed also. It is actually easy if we train the little ones at an age when we're still hand feeding and fledging them. Our Sun Conure, Mali never did want the harness put on her, but finally became used to it. It was invented when she was about 12 years old. She was an extremely calm and trusting friend, so I'm sure that helped, but I also bled a few times when we were introducing her to it. (my own fault, because Steve had personally shown me how to do it without that reaction). Ziva watches me bring the harness, wants to chew at it a bit as I put it over her head, but then actually seems to get excited because she knows it means new experiences ... like sitting in our crab apple tree yesterday afternoon and finding out about new treats hanging from the branches. When we come back inside, she seems to know it is time to take the harness off ... she stands patiently on the kitchen counter as I loosen the harness and gently take it off over her wings and then over her head. I believe that she is this calm in using it because she knows the routine, having been introduced to it very early at Hartman Aviary and now continuing at our home. I've even had the same reaction (maybe with a little half hearted growling:) ) in the baby cage at the aviary before I take her out for a walk. If a dog can be excited at getting to go out ... and even bring their leash to you, maybe a Grey can learn to love the experience as well. Especially when we encourage that reaction in them by helping them find enjoyable experiences during the outings. They are SO curious and SO intelligent. The harness should mean fun ... and new things to see and learn. Better quality of life ...

Dan, My recent experience with the harness and with Ziva on the Flight Line follows what Steve said. Her first outings on the harness and Flight Line, Ziva's first reactions when "spooked" were to fly straight away from the perceived danger as fast as possible. (and away from everyone including me). After only a few outings I had her hooked up to a Flight Line at Steve's aviary this past Saturday. I was sitting in a lawn chair about 30 or 40 feet from Ziva. She was playing with foraging toys on the lawn. A 10 year old boy that she didn't know walked up to her to say hello, but Ziva spooked. She flew straight to me in the chair. I don't yet have her trained to come on command, but she had apparently been keeping track of me, even though I was sitting down low to the ground at a distance from her. Instead of panic, she flew, evaluated "thinking on the wing" and came to her flock. Interesting to watch her mental development.

Hi Dan, I forwarded your question to Steve and his answer is below: Response to Dan 9/8/09 There are a couple of issues that come to mind when reading Dan’s comment. First the bird that died supposedly died of a heart attack. I believe this is an impromptu guess but is likely correct. Many birds get tangled in ropes, toys and cage bars everyday and rarely do they die. The harness in this situation was not the actual cause of death. Most of us think of parrots having a long life expectancy but the reality is that so far a very small percentage have lived to 25 years old. If you consider the life expectancy at hatching the real average life expectancy for an African grey is much less than 25 years. This will change in the future now that we have certified avian vets, pelleted food and an awareness of the need for exercise. This bird most likely had it wings clipped for most of its life and for all of the formative years was most likely eating a very substandard diet containing lots of sun flower seeds. If this bird was introduced to a harness 25 years ago it very well might have lived to the 50 or 60 years most of us assume our birds will live to. The incidences broken necks and strangled birds are vastly over reported. When you pick up a dead parrot the head will hang almost straight down. This is because of the number of vertebrae in the neck that allows it to turn its head most the way around. Birds’ necks are also very strong. Just walk up to a chain link fence, hold on with your mouth and lift your body off the ground. We can barely even hold our head up off the ground if we are lying down. So, on a relative scale a birds neck must be ??? 100’s ??? of times stronger than ours. Life has inherent risk. If we go too far to limit risks then we reduce the quality of life. I have a bit of experience with parrots in captivity and in the wild and I could never justify keeping a bird that would normally be mentally and physically stimulated by flying 10 – 25 miles a day inside of a house all of its life. My answer to the risk of strangulation with the harness leash is that it has never been reported and I would have a hard time believing it if someone actually reported it. We have well over 100,000 Aviators in use and everyone has access to chat forums and my email. In addition, there are owners all around the world that let me know anytime something happens so we can address it immediately. When a bird is spooked by something in its environment we need to understand that it usually happens because the bird has had limited education, especially when young, and is not able to think fast enough to determine if the threat is real. Once the threat is perceived a bird with limited education will often overreact and fly uncontrollably until stopped or exhausted. Wild birds that become concerned fly only a short distance of a few feet while they determine if the threat is real. This process is what I call ‘thinking on the wing’. One way to enhance a birds’ ability to cope with and understand the complicated outdoor environment is to use the Flight Line. With you close by you can allow your bird to roam a large area without being directly connected to you. As things happen in the environment the bird will learn to fly only a few feet while considering the stimulus. If you carefully observe a parrot that is scared you will almost always see that the owner’s body language and verbal language is what elevates the situation to hysteria. Instead of remaining totally calm as you would if you were the only one that experienced the stimulus, most owners immediately react physically or verbally. Even a cue as simple as quickly raising your hand to catch your bird will be interpreted as an evasive maneuver by a flock mate elevating the level of concern. This is usually not a onetime situation but a method of operation used by most owners. If a bird in a flock repeatedly reacted inappropriately the other flock members will quickly blow him off. If any of the flock repeatedly responded in an aggressive and evasive manner then he will be trained to exhibit the behavior more often. There is little reason for a properly raised hand fed parrot to be more concerned than the owner when something unexpected happens. The bird should actually be taking cues from the owner as to whether on not to be concerned. There is not a quick fix to this issue. It is the result of a great deal of the neuropathways in the birds’ brain not being properly programmed during the sensitive periods when it is young. The question is how much does one really care. If the question REALLY is “What is the best way to keep my bird safe?” (mentally and physically), then I think there should be no question that whatever risk there might be with taking a bird outside on a harness is minimal. Is a 25 year old African grey parrot that dies of a heart attack safe? My guess is that it is only safe from having a meaningful life. Best Regards, Steve Hartman

I'll post a few photos here. Interesting stuff ... the mother was struck by a car and died, but the baby deer was delivered by C section. He is in the intensive care unit at Tiggywinkles Wildlife Hospital in Buckinghamshire and only recently opened his eyes.

Standing on his own ... I hear he has quite an independent "attitude".

In the incubator

About 6 inches tall ... Rupert gets some shut-eye

I'll post a few photos here. Interesting stuff ... the mother was struck by a car and died, but the baby deer was delivered by C section. <br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/08 18:27

Good endings are blessings <br><br>Post edited by: harmonicaman68, at: 2009/09/08 18:36

It is possible that the Grey was imbedded with a chip for identification. Vets and breeders have readers to tell. The chip, if present, will tell who the owner is and who the breeder and vet is. It's a start toward finding the owner. Thank you for having a heart to help this Grey and its owner.

Hi luvparrots ... Bald eagles live up to 30 years in the wild and up to 50 years in captivity. What is the maximum flight speed of the wild African Grey?

Hi luvparrots .. I believe the answer to my question was Velcro. Send me a message about the abdominal closure thing ? I'm confused ... inspired by the structure of a feather? :-)

I passed along the tragic story of this Grey's death to Steve Hartman, inventor of the Aviator. He asked me to post the following, in hopes that it is a learning experience. I post it below: ================== Hello Everyone, Harmonicaman passed on this unfortunate story to me and I have asked him to post this comment for me. Jen has done a very nice job reporting this situation but I would like to add a little of my thoughts. Please do not be quick to fault this owner for not following The Aviator instructions or not using common sense. She has obviously been successful at keeping this her grey alive for the last 25 years and for whatever reason she trusted the situation she left the bird in. I know very little of the specifics of this situation but I certainly can understand that if it were me I would wish that I could find blame elsewhere so I would not have to forever live with the responsibility. All of us have done things, that with hindsight, we realize were not smart moves or we learned something new that will help us do a better job in the future. That’s why we have the word accident in our vocabulary. Most of the situations where we have ‘learned the hard way’ did not have the severe consequences of this situation so it can be easy to forget that all of us have done many things that had almost the same dire consequence. I have owned over 800 adults and 4000 babies in the last 25 years and have had quite a few instances where I have found babies and adults tangled in frayed ropes or trapped in situations that could have had the same outcome. Hundreds of millions of parrots have lived and died a miserable life with clipped wings or trapped in a small cage. This owner was endeavoring to enhance the life experience of her pet and now unfortunately will live with the guilt of putting him in danger. Perhaps we should be praising her for having done such a good job looking out for the welfare of this bird for the past 25 years. Hopefully this incidence will serve to save other lives in the future. I know that I will be remembering more often to council owners not to leave their bird unattended while wearing the harness. Before I invented The Aviator we were using other types of harnesses that were very dangerous and came with very little directions. Now we have the instructional video with the harness, dozens of harness related videos on the internet, and great forums like this to share our experiences. Best Regards, Steve Hartman

Hi Jen and all, This is deeply disturbing. I've worked with a few birds using the Aviator. I've always accompany the birds and have them outside of their cage so they don't become entangled. In fact SPECIFICALLY for that reason. When Hartman Aviary is helping a larger number of young birds become accustomed to the harness simultaneously, they actually have harnesses that they have cut the tether from, so the little ones can get used to the harness without entanglement. They STILL have someone in the cage with the birds. It's just common sense. If the bird is to be left alone ... don't leave the harness on. Ziva is exceptionally calm with her harness, but I've noticed that she will "worry" at the harness if it is the only thing she can focus her attention on. It isn't a toy ... so keeping it out of her reach when she is not attended is smart. People who snare animals in the wild use just cord that is made into a loop. Any "leash" can become a snare for any pet and choke them if not attended and they continue to fight against it. This is sad beyond understanding ...

It's incredible how quickly the Greys do mature ... whether CAG or TAG. To see the little ones at just 3 or 6 weeks old and how they have developed at 12 weeks old is just amazing. I was talking with Steve Hartman and he mentioned the difference in feather structure of the first feathers as compared with the feathers the birds have after their first molt. Apparently the original feathers are less "quality" in his experience. The Greys (and other parrots) are growing so quickly that the nutrients available to build feathers of quality are lacking. His experience is that the structure of feathers that come in subsequent to the first molt are MUCH higher quality ... even with an excellent diet for the parents and babies. The comments by SchroedersJen and by Tycos_mom that CAGs and TAGs seem to be the same bird are very interesting. With the differences present in other parrot kinds ... why the similarities in Greys? Is there an ecological niche that the TAG fills that CAGs could not or vice versa?

Sorry I referenced the wrong article ... the correct reference is http://www.africangreys.com/articles/greys/species.htm

I saw the reference on another topic that took me to http://www.africangreys.com/legend.htm It was a very interesting article discussing the possibility that the only real differences result from CAGs needing and extra 6 months to fully mature and join the flock. It hypothesized that a "nanny CAG" might solve some of the nervous behavior by socializing (coaching) CAG youngsters the extra 6 months that wild CAGs receive from members of the flock. An interesting read. I wonder if any breeders besides the one mentioned have tried this method?

Terri and I were recently adopted by a TAG (Ziva) and while cruising the internet there are many with opinions about differences in the personalities of CAGs and TAGs. Since many of those articles were direct copies of each other, I assume they aren't from first hand experience as with the comments on the Grey Forums site. I noticed that Dave007 has two CAGS and a TAG in his (what do I look like?" photo), and his posts have been VERY helpful. There are probably others on the forum who have both CAGS and TAGs as well. In general (I know there are specifics to each bird type), is there a REAL difference in personalities of CAGs and TAGs? Or do the articles that state TAGS are more laid back just result from the fact that there are far more CAGS than TAGs who have adopted humans to this point ... and therefore the perception that TAGs are less nervous, because fewer articles have been written about them? My mentor, says no real personality or intelligence differences exist ... and that there is more difference that results because of the style of raising the CAG or TAG than through the genetics. My observations (though limited) have shown the intelligence seems to be the same and many of the personality traits. The Greys I've met seem to know specific humans and recognize strangers in much the same same respect as a human child would (with a healthy dose of skepticism in the Grey) that is present (and may go beyond) that of children depending on experiences and age of the child. Can anyone with experience comment on differences and similarities in CAGs and TAGs?

The Galápagos Penguin lives near the equator. What modern invention resulted from studying the hook structure of bird feathers?

Green Peacock: Burma, Northern Myanmar, southern China, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Peninsular Malaysia, the islands of Java. Indian Peacock: the subcontinent of India (national bird of the Republic of India). Indian subcontinent includes India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Bhutan. Also island of Sri Lanka and Maldives. What birds lay their eggs in other birds nests to be raised by others?

UPDATE: She was a little testy this morning. Would not step up to me. I had a little talk with her about yesterday. Told her if I upset her I was sorry and that I want to be friends again. I also told her that there can be only one boss here and that is me....and I asked her to think about it. I went back to the cage about 15 minutes later and there she was stepping up like before as if nothing happened between yesterday afternoon and this morning.......<br><br>Post edited by: qqsbad, at: 2009/08/25 17:43 Excellent that you just stood there and talked to her about your feelings Karma to you

From the photos, his feathers look fine. The TAG feather color is lighter closer to the legs. The feather structure of the chest part of the body and legs is more downy (as opposed to the wings and back). Max appears healthy to me. Maybe there are others who can post here about this as well ...