dblhelix

Ronda, glad I did not scare you off! I hope through some of this dialogue you got some valuable information to help you decide how to proceed with your intial inquiry. Please continue to post away and ask questions and we will be happy to try and help. This one has now gotten a bit off course and I agree that we already have had the clip or not debate. I have ALWAYS supported that clipping is a personal choice. My intent has not been to offend, judge or tell anyone what to do. I apologize if it was received differently. My statements are my opinion and it would be foolish for anyone to take them otherwise. I did feel compelled to voice my thoughts on the general question related to clipping to provoke thought on the issue. Sometimes throwing a hot potato out there accomplishes that. I intentionally used a comparison that is extreme if taken literally. For the record, I do NOT think clipping is literally the same as breaking a dog’s leg. I know many good friends that choose to clip for a variety of reasons. I do think it is important for people to carefully consider the pros and cons of clipping as a means to deal with a specific goal. I stand by the position that physically altering the animal is almost never necessary as other options exist. I do realize not everyone can execute certain options due to their living circumstances or choose to. Joe - I do not think I made my point with you, other than getting you riled up. Never once did I say "this is right and that is wrong". I made no judgement on your choices and my only intent was to state there are options to consider. That does not infer your choices are wrong and if you took it that way its on you. I do extend my apologies if my message was perceived as a personal attack or judgment, this was not the intent. Now, back to having fun here people...B) I sincerely hope no one takes this whole thing too personally. If anyone feels the need to take up the matter further I suggest using the personal message system, though I am happy to discuss more in the open forum if desired.

Interesting poll. So far its amlost even. I bet 10 years ago it would have been heavily weighted on the "clipped" side (at least in the US). I think this trend is shifting (for better or worse) as the apparent benefits of keeping flighted birds is becoming better understood.

I agree this is a personal choice that each owner must make based on an evaluation of their living circumstances etc. My comments are my opinion, which is what the original poster requested. Everyone must ultimately determine what is best for them and their bird. Considering other people's opinions is part of that formula. There is no black and white right and wrong here, but there are different approaches to consider. Joe - you can have a flighted bird that gets to enjoy all of the things you indicate: outside time, climbing trees, playing on grass, car rides etc. To do so one needs to invest the time and training with a harness. Some have even gone so far as free flight recall training. Now, realistically most owners will probably not accomplish this level of training with their bird, but my point is there are different approaches and trade offs. Best, Mark<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/20 05:09

Hello and WELCOME! As a general comment, if you are willing to give the bird the time, love and attention necessary in a patient manner accepting who the bird is and the personality it has then rehoming is a great option. You need to be commited to take the good and the bad. Enjoy the good, work on the "bad" or undesirable traits to the extent you can. This is true regardless of what age you get the bird since they are all individuals. A mature bird will be more established with its personality. It looks like you have a good start with all the experience you have with other birds. One thing to be aware of is that at the age of 9 the bird is in the sexually mature years. I would not think this should be a deterrant as all Greys will go through that stage. However, you need to be aware of where the bird is at in its life cycle so you are better prepared to deal with its needs and personality traits that may be influenced by its age. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/19 07:02

My opinion would be that clipping feathers is not the answer. You have had the bird for 3 weeks or so, correct? That is NOTHING in the grand scheme of ownership. You need to focus on letting the bird adjust to its new home, to you etc. Changing more things (and clipping more is actually a pretty drastic change) may actually make things worse. You need to build a relationship on trust based on patience. You dont break a dogs leg to get it to stay where you want...OK, now you know my position on wing clipping in general. B) Certainly there are some that think clipping will force the bird to be dependent on you and therefore increase the bond, I think the bird may associate even more fear and the inability to control its body by clipping with you. You should not force anything, you build trust so that there is a mutually beneficial relationship. My suggestion, take it slow, dont expect change/bonding/relationship overnight and work on building the relationship with the fact in mind that birds are meant to fly, will be happier in that state and you CAN live with a flighted bird.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/19 06:18

Greetings Reta, Welcoome to the board! We have a great group of members here willing to learn from/share with one another. We look forward to your participation. Regarding the picture posting, please have a look at the FAQs section. Its not set up perfectly, but if you poke around in that room there is an explanation on how to post photos here. If that does not work, let me or one of the admins know and we will give you more detailed instruction! B) WELCOME!!

Hi Dan, I did not really pay attention to the "focus" mentioned and if there was a particular pattern of the molting feathers...will need to do that going forward. Certainly I did observe what appeared to be some pattern and tail feathers were involved over the course of the months for all the primaries to molt. Of interest, the quote you have refers to bird order of "Passerines", African Greys are of the Order "Psittaciformes", not sure if that would make a difference in the pattern mentioned, but certainly we are talking about birds from different Orders of scientific classification so it would not be a stretch for there to be differences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psittaciformes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passeriformes<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/18 06:34

Yes Dan,similar observation. At least in so far as say, flight # 8 grew in and there was a gap between the last clipped feather and the new one. In Kip's case she had 7 primary flights clipped, so # 4 - 10. I did note that if flight # 8 came in on one wing, the same flight # feather on the opposing wing came in within about a week of that. Therefore, the "imbalance" from wing to wing was naturally very short lived. Certainly there was a period though when 1 or 2 flights were coming in and they were sort of "out there" on the wing, with no supporting neighbors. This period makes the bird a bit more prone to potentially damaging these flights since they have no support network from neighbor feathers until the others grow in. But, Kip was fine. According to the breeder we got Kip from, she was allowed 1 fledging flight and was then clipped on primaries #4-10. So she basically had no flight training in full feather. I am not sure exactly what age that was done at, but she was clipped when we got her at 6 months. However, she continued to try and flutter around with the clipped feathers, gaining strength etc. As the clipped feathers molted and more came in it became very clear that her ability to fly and gain altitude changed drastically. She had a handful of incidents where she flew into walls at first as she was "surprised" and not used to how her wings accelerated her body. But after a pretty short time that is a total thing of the past. She can now control her body, go where she wants when she wants. Regarding flying, I worked with her every day and continue to do so today. First encouraging her to "hop" from say a perch to my hand, and increasing the distance always praising and rewarding her accomplishments...this has been a process over many months and she will now fly to me when she wants and if I call her with my hand raised. She can easily fly now from almost anywhere (low or high) and land very nicely right where she wants to. She can also hover if say intended landing platform (my hand) moves as she approaches. She will hover a moment, realign and then land beautifully. I say to her "Come on Kip, Fly!" She will then start saying "Fly, Fly!" and then take off...I usually know if she is coming as she currently precedes most take offs with "Fly!". <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/17 19:41

There are stories of people fledging captive birds at 20+ years that were previously kept clipped their whole lives. The younger the bird the better chance it will learn competent flight skills more easily. Also, each bird will have different tendencies and flight ability if not fledged at the "natural" time when very young. Some may take to their new feathers and flight very easily, some may never gain good flight control and may be phobic their whole lives if previously kept clipped. It really depends on the animal and the owner...the owners enthusiasm, encouragement etc can make a big difference in helping older birds that never knew how to fly gain the confidence to master it. Younger birds will usually get it w/o much trouble. Kip was clipped when we got her at age 6 months. She now has finally replaced all her flights at 17 months and is quite a good flier, though I know she is still not an "expert" B)

We will be cooking turkey and fixins at our place. Gonna give deep fat frying a try...done lots of research on the proper/best techniques. Bought a nice deep fat fyer! Should be fun, provided I dont suffer 3rd degree burns or burn the place to the ground...like most things, seems with proper care and preparation risk is minimal. I hear turkey comes out AWESOME with this cooking method. Will let you know how it goes!

Dumfatnhappy - Optimally clipping will not be done until the bird is completly fledged and fully flight proficient. Flight proficient means the bird has learned complete flight control including banking, hovering and landing exactly where they intend to. There is no set age limit, flight is a learned skill for birds. Once clipped the flight feathers will not ever be back to normal until each clipped feather has molted and been replaced with a new one. There is no way to really apply a % to the equation. Feathers are not like hair etc where 1 strand keeps growing. A clipped feather remains clipped until it falls out during the molt and is replaced by a new one. Every bird molts at different times of the year, but usually there is 1 major molt every 8-12 months. Bottom line, if clipped you need to wait until the next molt for the feathers to be replaced. It may take 12 months for all clipped feathers to be replaced. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/17 00:35

Greetings Rhe, Congrats on your pending new grey. To echo what Judy said, you need to be really careful with such a young burd. Unless you are an experienced bird owner and hand feeder it is strongly recommended you only take home a fully abundance weaned baby. Ask your breeder, confirm and observe yourself that the bird is eating on its own (eg no hand feeding necessary) before you agree to take it home. Every bird will complete the weaning process at a different time. For greys this is usually between 10-18 weeks. Once fully weaned they can and will start eating just about anything. There is good info on this forum about diets people are having success with. Generally a good pellet diet plus daily fruits/veggies and/or a seed diet supplemented with daily fresh foods works well. There are good discussions on this board regarding diet that you can search and read. Regarding sleeping, most owners have their bird sleep in the cage. Some have a special smaller "sleeping cage", but most do not. Generally the cage is their safe zone and where they will be comfortable sleeping. Some have success with covering the cage at night, others choose not to. Does not really matter much, but it is a lifestyle decision. If you get them used to being covered you may have to arrange do to that all the time, even if you go away for a short time etc. There are other posts on this forum addressing covering you can search and read. Again, welocome aboard. We hope we can provide more information. Please do confirm the status of your bird before you bring it home. Unless you are experienced do not agree to bring it home until fully weaned. This recommendation is in the best interest of the bird and you. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/16 16:50

Welcome! We look forward to hearing more!! Thanks for joining.

Very nice entries...Here is mine, though very tough to make the choice. Malibu sunset Link to larger image: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/2036738944_3814437428_b.jpg and a few others (not entered), yes I like ocean sunsets... http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2038/2036765980_0b52cb2255_b.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2020/2036749794_4dd2cf9df6_b.jpg<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/20 05:05

Joe, My thoughts are with you, your family and of course the little lost one. I am still hoping for the chance you will find him.

To answer your question, I think the best way to keep your bird off things and out of areas you do not want them in is to train them where they are allowed. This takes patience, dedication and repetition. It can also be accomplished through some variation/compromise in the rooms or areas where you interact with your bird. Never get mad at them, just put them back where you want them to be over and over. They will eventually get it. I am of the opinion it is best to train your bird not to go where you do not want it, rather than hobbling it by clipping the wings. This takes patience but in the long run I believe it is the best solution for the birds sake. Flight proficient birds do not "fly into things". They elegantly control where they want to go and when. If you determine you are not able to provide a reasonably safe environment to keep a flighted bird then PROPER clipping is an option. However, I would strongly suggest you really research the pros and cons of clipping and understand the best ways to do it if you choose to clip. Certainly do not do it for your own "convenience". You have chosen to share your life with a flighted being. Flight is their natural state. Altering that is not natural and can create other problems. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/15 05:20

The feet do lighten with age and the scaly look can change as well. Its not really reliable, but some vets will evaluate the appearance of bird feet to try and get a feel for how old a bird may be. My grandmothers red lored amazon was wild caught. We do not know how old he is, but we have had him over 37 yrs now. A vet thought he may well be over 50 and based his guess citing how the feet looked, in addition to some other factors. The feet are an area not covered by feathers so it makes sense they may more readily show age than other areas...just as our skin wrinkles etc and shows other signs of age. Regarding the leg band, I would say its better not to have them on, since they can get caught on things or cause other irritaion. However, you need to be very careful and have an experienced vet remove it. They can be tricky and you certainly do not want to injure your bird in the process.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/15 05:10

So long as the beak is normal leave it be. No trimming, filing, smoothing, adding lotion or anything unnatural. Most birds will keep their beak in perfect condition through grinding the upper and lower areas together and chewing/shredding woods. The "flaky" look described and shown in pics looks completely normal. You do need to provide them assorted woods to chew, gnaw and exercise their beaks. Unless there is an actual overgrowth or other problem verified by a vet, I would not do anything to the beak. Trimming and smoothing is primarily done by humans to make the bird "easier to handle" or "prettier". Its not necessary and if done wrong will prevent your bird from being able to properly climb on things or even eat. :ohmy: <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/11/15 04:42

This link has some pretty good info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_yellow_headed_amazon

Oh boy, this is a tough one to choose a pic for submission....hmmm... B)

I voted...was the intent to document the current age of a grey and whether they talk now, or the age at which they started to talk? My guess is the former and that how I voted...B)

Not so sure its dumb to regulate bird breeding and register parrots. We need to register dogs etc, why not birds? There are lots of breeders in the US that simply do it for the money and mass produce babies w/o proper care. Proper regulation, knowledge testing etc "may" help address this. Now, the other issue regarding what a woman can do with her own body and needing her husbands permission?? Its tough to believe that is the law in a modern western society.

Congrats on your new addition and WELCOME! We look forward to hearing more. There is an amazing collection of members here with a lot of information they are willing to share.

It is more likely that you could NOT have them together than that you could have them together. These birds are different species and maintain quite different flocks in the wild. The African Greys are "1 species flocks" meaning in the wild there are 100's of these birds flocking together w/o any other birds. Its how they forage, protect each other etc. The South American parrots are "multi species flock" birds, meaning in the wild you will see many different birds in the same flock (yellow napes, blue fronts, macaws etc) all together. Due to these inherent differences, it is not likely that you will find them to be overly friendly with one another. Not to say it cannot happen, but you need to be really careful. Most people that do have more than 1 bird only allow them out together under close supervision and there are horror stories of one bird severly hurting or even killing another. You need to be really careful and I would not presume that you would ever be able to have them out together, let alone in the same cage.

****NEWS BULLETIN**** CONGRATULATIONS ARE IN ORDER FOR DAN, THE MAN!! Way to go Dan. Keep the news, comments, help, insight, fun and friendship coming!! B)