dblhelix

Kip came to us clipped at around 6 mo's. I am not sure how much flight experience she had...best info I could get from the breeder was that she got to fly once! Sounded like she took a flight and then got clipped. In any event, we let her molt out all flights and she now is quite flight proficient at 19 months old. As more flights came in her flying became easier but she was clearly not skilled at it. We had quite a few crash landings as she learned over many weeks. She is still learning but now she can hover, bank, fly up, down and land exactly where she wants. So it took an entire year for all the primaries to molt and regrow. Keep in mind that the full flight molt may be quite a long process and you need to be prepared for crash landings/provide a reasonably safe envt to "practice" flying as they learn. There are always risks but my opinion is that a flight proficient bird is actually less prone to injury in the long run. Flight proficient birds do not regularly fly into windows, crash etc and they have the ability to escape danger through flight. Things like open windows, doors, ceiling fans, boiling water etc are not present in the natural envt so you need to mitigate those factors. But many a "clipped" bird has flown away to the owners disbelief thinking they could not fly or fluttered out of control somewhere and got injured. Once they have full control of their bodies they are actually less accident prone than a clipped bird. Anyways, I can go on and on about the scientific data supporting the advantages of flight to a bird...everyone ultimately needs to decide what is best for them and their pet given their living situation. If you can allow them to fly through reasonable adjustments to the environmnent you provide that is preferable. Allowing them to learn flight skills at a young age is irrefutably in their best interest . <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/24 00:06

Is Echo clipped now? Was she allowed to fully fledge and become flight proficient before clipping? The best case scenario is to allow fledging and full flight proficiency before clipping. If that was not done, the younger you allow them to learn flight the better. You can always allow a clipped bird to molt out the primary flight feathers and then have full flight capability. However, the longer you wait to allow them to learn flight skills the more difficult it may be for them. Some adult birds that were not allowed to fledge will never become flight proficient but I have heard of some cases where a bird only was allowed flight at 15+ years and learned just fine.

Awesome pic Joe! Heather - what do you mean by "wild animals living in a zoo"? Do you mean like squirrels/birds etc that find places to make the zoo their home? If thats what you mean I dont see why not...if you are talking about animals kept/cared for etc by the zoo staff then they are not wild.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/23 05:37

I got ya! Some people are just silly, or naive, or plain old dumb... Many people who do not know birds (and there's lots of them) have this mental image of a "parrot" that must be green, maybe with some red and blue!

Oh yeah....and grey is BEAUTIFUL! All those subtle color changes, shades of shimmering silver, the striking red or maroon tail. Greys are sort of mysterious, not usually as extroverted as the south american parrots, but just as (if not more) beautiful!

Greetings Woody. As Judy indicated, there are a lot of issues to consider in dealing with factors that may impact plucking. The more info you share, the more we may be able to help. Solid advice on the vet visit. However, often the check up comes out fine and we are left with trying to evaluate less tangible factors. It stands out to me that you mention several recent environmental changes including a cage relocation and your grandmother moving out. Did your grandmother spend a lot of time with or near the bird? Talking to it etc? Was she home a lot while you perhaps are at work? If so her absence now could be enough to set off plucking for some birds. Couple that with a cage location change etc and we may have some factors. We look forward to hearing more from you and hopefully helping with the plucking issue.

You'll be fine! Dont be afraid, be aware. You will get bitten at one time or another but most bites can be avoided if you are in tune with your birds body language. They can sense if you are scared and this can make them uneasy as well leading to an even higher likelihood of a bite. Relax and they will too. When you do get bitten, chances are it wont be all that bad...though random accidents do happen :angry:

I agree here. - Grey due to some evolutionary advantage (assuming you believe in evolution). - Introduce toys gradually. If they are afraid, go slow. Greys are naturally more cautious and suspicious of new things than other birds (probably also some evolutionary significance). Dont overwhelm them but dont give up. Keep introducing in new ways etc. Ultimately the more they are exposed to and accept the more balanced and healthy they will be emotionally in the long run of their lives. - In general I am an advocate of keeping birds flighted if possible. I completely agree that allowing proper fledging (including complete flight proficiency) has shown to be of significant importance for the birds physiological, neurological and emotional development. Best if at the natural time in their lives but if that cannot be done then refledging as an adult is also possible and beneficial. Each case is different and there are many healthy/happy clipped birds. If you can allow them to fledge many of the negative aspects associated with keeping them clipped are mitigated. In the environment you describe, with fans running and windows open, I think it would be irresponsible to keep a flighted bird. That environment is setting them up to escape or more likely (and much worse) get killed/injured by a ceiling fan.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/23 03:21

I like the suggestions to try and get a name from a language of their homeland! Kip's name is actualy "Kipusa" which is Swahili for "pretty girl". We usually call her "Kip" and "Ruby" as nick names...she likes to say "Kip Kip Kip Kip Kip...Kipusa!"

I too would be cautious and steer away from bringing them to pet stores. Particularly mass market types where (sad but true) the incidence of sick animals is higher due to the sheer volume they handle and challenges with controlling disease. I am also am skeptical of the safety in boarding facilities if ever needed. We have not had to do this yet and are fortunate we have friends that happily take Kip in if we go away (like last week went skiing for 5 days). However, I have looked into boarding as an option from time to time, but am concerned about the potential to pass disease. On the other hand, just like you and me, they need to live a little! We cant keep them in a bubble! I guess its about balance and doing what you think is reasonable mitigation for the dangers inherent in life!

Rae, lots of good ideas and advice here. I too am sorry to hear of your challenges and hope that Angie improves. I dont have much to add, its going to be a process, don't give up. You are not a bad "parront". Your description of the shocking events at the old breeder, coupled with a severe wing clip and nail trim along with your illness/stress are probably all related to Angie's state. Both of you hang in there, continue to work towards improvemet, but dont make drastic changes to diet, environment etc in attempt to remedy. Make a plan and go about it but remember to introduce anything new in a manner to give Angie time to adjust. Otherwise the attempts to resolve could be undermined. I hope and believe you will both get through this.

I would strongly discourage most people from attempting to self administer antibiotics to your pet unless prescribed by a vet. It is more likely you make a mistake and kill your pet through improper dosage than that you actually make your bird ill from an encounter with your mouth.

Regarding the question about Tink. If you read the blog it is pretty clear she flew out of fright (car crash or some loud noise near by). Once spooked she was probably disoriented and confused. I dont know for sure of course...I am not Tink, was not there etc. Bottom line, clipped or not accidents of one sort can and will happen. To think your bird is "safer" clipped is in my opinion a false sense of security. To me the pros of flight to the birds physical and mental health outweigh the cons. No doubt there is some risk in keeping a flighted bird, but the majority of that risk exists with a clipped bird as well. Many a clipped bird has flown away and been lost forever to the owners amazement. Many a clipped bird has managed to fly into a window and break its neck. Many a clipped bird could not escape danger (eg fly up) and suffered. Flight proficient birds rarely fly into things or go anywhere other than where they intend. But remember, flight is a learned skill. Flight proficient birds need to be properly fledged and go through a period where they crash land, fly into things etc :blink: Any accident is terrible, but they are accidents. There is no guarantee about safety no matter how you decide to go. You really need to study the experiences, advantages, disadvantages etc and then decide what you think is right for you and your pet given your lifestyle. If you think about it, taking flight from a bird is arguably taking the essence of their being away. A bird is flight, almost everthing about them is geared for it. Feathers, bones, cardiouvascular system, brain...Its beautiful and amazing and you can see they love it. I think there is some tendency for people to incorrectly assume the bird is more prone to injury if flighted, perhaps because flight is foreign to us. But that is not true. A bird that cannot fly in the wild is a dead bird. They know it and even if kept captive many become phobic, distrust their bodies, have other physical and mental problems much of which can be attributed to the clipped state. No boubt many many people keep healthy happy clipped birds. I am not saying its 100% one way or the other. But in general, I think it is healthier for the bird to be kept flighted.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/17 17:11

Welcome cmoscufo! 10 yrs of age is a typical time for female greys to begin laying eggs. They generally are sexually mature (able to reproduce) at 4-5 years old but the drive to produce eggs etc really jumps up at 8-10 years. Read this post regarding egg laying in general...chances are things will be fine and there is not much you should do besides ensuring the females have a good balanced diet. http://www.greyforums.net/forums/african-grey/52133-my-african-grey-just-laid-an-egg.html#52337<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/17 03:37

You will no doubt receive different (and sometimes passionate) feedback on this issue from different members. Personally I think if you are harness training, the bird is a proficient flier and you are prepared to make your home environment "safe" for a flighted bird why would you clip? A flighted bird has complete control over where it goes and when. A flight proficient bird almost never will fly into a door, a window or even a pot of boiling water. Not to say you should not take precaution...the most likely thing is a flighted bird flies right out the door if you are not diligent. There are other threads here about this very topic that I would encourage you to read all the way through, though long: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/african-grey/25408-the-african-grey-to-clip-or-not-to-clip.html http://www.greyforums.net/forums/african-grey/8152-wing-clipping.html#22893 http://www.greyforums.net/forums/african-grey/32365-flawed-logic-used-against-wing-clipping.html#32839 Ultimately you need to try and understand the pros/cons to keeping a flighted bird vs a clipped bird and decide what is best for you given your living situation. Personally, I think keeping them flighted is the way to go. B) AND, welcome to the forum by the way! We look forward to your participation here! <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/17 03:32

Kip likes to exhuberently dive into her food bowl and toss beakfuls and/or claw fulls of dry food everywhere. She does this every couple of days. I generally ignore it, but have observed her happily foraging on the floor of her cage for the foods she tossed (if I have not gotten around to cleaning it)...They naturally forage on the ground in wild and its considered good to provide some opportunity to do so. It may just be something you need to live with...they are messy and wasteful! B) Regarding the clock. The introduction of something new/strange can definitely be stressful for some greys and result in behavior changes. I would probably remove the clock for now. You can try putting somewhere in sight and moving it closer over a series of days or weeks (depending on how sensitive your bird it to new things) to let them adjust. If they are acting different on of the first questions to ask is whether something recently changed (environment, diet, daily routine etc). I think here its pretty likely that the clock is a culprit...<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/16 21:35

Mine is interested in my mouth too. Its where sound comes from and food goes so I think that adds to the interest...Watch out as they could injure you (bite tongue, teeth, cheeks etc) and of course the bacteria in our mouths can be bad for them!

Very Nice!

I think we dug pretty deep on this and its clear to me at this point! There are 2 separate issues and we have more or less covered the main causes of each. I initially referenced "vignetting" when I really meant "chromatic abberation". The former a product of photoreceptor limitations and the latter a function of lens refraction and focal length. Both can produce distortion in an image capture. I am sure my misuse of the term added confusion to the discussion, but in the end provided even more useful information! Thanks for the clarification on "lens flare". I also like to try and capture images "as is" with little to no post processsing. Learn the properties of camera and how to adjust parameters available to get the image desired. However, the digital medium is so flexible it is tough not to make use of the powerful options available in post processing. One step at a time I guess! Photography is fun and digital cameras really have made it much more accessible to people. Once you have the gear you can practice away and view your images w/o development cost until you really have an image you like! :side:<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/16 02:42

WELCOME BACK PENNY!!! B) We certainly missed you here and appreciate your contributions "remotely" from your BB over the past few weeks I certainly hope you are adjusting to the changes of late and wish you and your family all the best as you enter this new phase. Sorry for not adding to this post sooner, I was out of town the last week! Look forward to "hearing" from you more around here as we go forward!

Well, w/o going into too much detail, the vignetting is a term used to describe irregularities that may be seen on images, usually around the edges. Perhaps I am not using the term 100% accurately, but as a general term the definition of "vignetting" as used to describe photographs is: - an engraving, drawing, photograph, or the like that is shaded off gradually at the edges so as to leave no definite line at the border. "Chromatic abberration" is a term used to describe distortion that specifically has to do with lenses having different refractive indexes for different wavelengths of light. Therefore in my attemtp to explain, this equates to the properties of light waves and different colors being different wavelengths. No lens is perfect and some light waves (colors) will not be refracted or focused identically and this can result in image quality issues, loss of true color rendition etc. Every lens has a "sweet" spot where this tendency will be minimized. When zooming way in or out (adjusting focal length) each lens will begin to experience more chromatic abberation. There is also a real issue as pointed out by twogreys with digital image sensors and the tendecy for them to also suffer certain image distortion. I am in no way claiming to be totally correct, but I did take several photography courses. I am just communicating what I have been taught and aware of by reading and researching. Its an interesting discussion (to me anyways) B) Understanding these factors can help us get better images and perhaps undersand when they do not turn out quite the way we want them to. Of course, each capture is a function of so many variables..but the more we know the better I say!

I agree. I think these shots look nice and each capture is unique. What looks pleasing to one may be somehow displeasing to another. Each capture is art! B) Now, not to beat a dead horse, but the vignetting and distortion I was referring to is caused by "chromatic abberation" and in fact a function of the LENS having a different refractive index for different wavelengths of light. No doubt this type of problem is magnified with digital sensors that are "tuned" to certain color channels and/or the interpolation technique used. This is usually referred to as "lens flare". To say these phenomenon have nothing to do with the lens is not accurate. The optical distortions caused by chromatic abberration are inherent in film cameras, telescopes and any optical device. B) I am by no means an optics expert, but I think it is important we interpret/share the information properly. If you think I have this wrong, lets discuss more, cuz I'd like to know and think its an interesting issue about photography! This discussion may be info overload for some, but I like digging into the details. :silly: :side: The write up in the link I provided from Wikipedia seems pretty straighforward that the lens plays a major role in the chromatic abberration (which I originally referred to as vignetting) as do other information sources. <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/09 07:40

Claw clipping is not necessary in most cases. The birds will care for the claws on their own, keeping them at an optimal length through trimming with their beak and/or if you provide perches that help file the nails. If you do need to trim, you should probably have an avian vet show you how to ensure you are aware of details to look out for. More often than not people clip the claws to make the bird more "comfortable" to hold, but this can result in birds that do not have the grip necessary to perch properly and lead to phobias. There are some cases where clipping is warranted, but I would not do unless advised by an avian vet. We have NEVER clipped our Amazons claws that we have had for over 38 yrs and have not needed to clip Kip that we have now had for 18 months.

Be careful with large amounts of raw garlic. Another user here lost their bird and it was suspected that eating a whole bulb of raw garlic may have been the cause of death. In general, garlic in small quantities is probably OK. But if you have eaten it raw you know it is kind of harsh. If the bird ate a lot and filled up its crop it is possible it could be toxic. So, I would not freak out if they eat a bit, but I would not allow them to eat raw garlic in general. Search the forum on "garlic" and you should be able to find the thread discussing another owners experience, along with a debate about garlic in general.

Just to clarify what I meant about the lens focal length range, many lenses that are say 17-85 etc will produce the best images in the 35-65 range (middle) of focal length range. Aperature extremes also push the lens as you use more or less width of the glass. Unless you have quite expensive glass, there can be fringing, vignetting (sp?) and other distortions around the edges when you operate at the extreme ends of the range of the lens. Specifically regarding optics and the effect of focal length see below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration In any case, I agree these pics are quite nice and was only providing some general tips. Heather, dont be too tough on yourself! What specifically are you looking to improve about the images? <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/01/07 03:16