Dave007

Firt off, it isn't necessary for you to give us your personal story concerning your family situation. You have nothing to prove to us as far as why you're doing what you're doing. The basic reason that you're doing this is to make life easier for you and the bird and possibly other animals in your house. but basically, you're still asking for other ways, other comments concerning what has to be done. There are no other ways. People here have given you variations of the basic things you have to do. You're judging how your bird is gonna react when a move is made to another house, another owner. For some reason, you seem to be thinking that specific things are involved in what you have to do, like some magic method that still exists. This is a huge african grey board. Hundreds of people here own rehomed birds. The birds they have were taken at older ages than your bird. Your bird is still a baby which is much easier to give away. The birds that were rehomed to our people were in superb physical shape, terrible physical shape and everything in between. Some had come from bad situations in a home. Others came from great situations in a home. Many of these birds weren't neglected. Many of those birds that came from other homes were very neglected and everything in between. There were all types of transition situations when that was done. You say that the other people also want it done right. Well, send them here. Let them make an effort to see what goes on. Let them read about people who did this in the past. They'll see that the ways to move a bird from one place to another is rather simple. I also say this because of one important thing they said and asked you to do. """""They want me to be active in his life and have asked me if I will take him when they go on vacation in the summers."""""" Well simply put, that's not a good idea. The other people also have a responsibility to their animals. If they need bird sitters, let them find sitters. A bird shouldn't be put back to previous owners. The whole idea that you wanna accomplish is to cut yourself off with this bird so that it can start fresh with new people. You'll have to make up your mind about the basics. Everyone has given you basics and also given you many methods of taking a bird from one place and putting to another place. Who knows,maybe these people aren't really up to taking on a medium sized smart parrot. Just because they like the bird doesn't mean that they can give the bird what it needs but right now, you're in no position to decide that. AND in no way can we know that. I'll say it again..send them here where experienced people are will ing to be straight forward about different aspects of taking on a bird that originally was owned by someone else. If they're afraid to join then you just come here, sign in and tell board members that the person who is going to start asking questions will be them qlthough it's always wise to belong to a board which will constantly feed information to new owners. Owning a pionus is nothing like owning a grey. 2 different birds, 2 different personalities, 2 different attitudes. So, it's up to you what you wanna do. We can only help just so much.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/04 19:31

Well, I just took your *new look* out into the backyard while walking around the trees. Nothing was stirring, not even a mouse. The trees were just standing tall as I passed them. THEN, I saw something that caught my eye and decided to take photo. The tree saw the photo and oh gosh, ALL OF A SUDDEN!!!!!!

Right--in your situation, don't use water mixed in. Walmart is the place that charges the least for it--It should be in a 1 gal container.

""""" it showed in the photos. I looked like an old used wrinkled up duffle bag"""""" Don't worry bout the photos. Listen, it's starting to get dark so please... The people here don't need any night frights. Nightmares aren't appreciated. People have enough trouble in their lives already.

No need to worry about the eyes. You should be more afraid of spraying the bird's face with anything simply because they don't like being sprayed in that area and continuing that will cause the bird to give you less cooperation. You should try to get as close to the bird as possible. You should spray under the wings so that the fluid also hits the inner skin. That's done by making the mister shoot out a stream of fluid instead of a mist. You should spray the whole breast area all the way down to the base of the tail including the vent. You should also spray the tops of all the feathers. In your situation, you should no water mixed in with the juice. """"I hate to ask this, but Dave said sexual frustration could contribute and don't touch the lower back under the wings or the chest. I touch Tobie all of these places except in the hollow below the rib cage""" Well you'll just have to take my word for it. Parrots SHOULD NOT be petted on the lower breast area, the vent area, inside the wings and on the lower area of the back. So basiclly, that leaves the head, neck and face area which is all that's needed. If you continue those things, the day will come when the bird will get excited enough even though you won't see that extra excitement and you'll decide to stop touch the bird in those places one night and the bird will bite you simply because you're not following through. The bird doesn't have to be an adult for all of this to happen. Ever see a young boy skip happily away with a big smile after making out with his girlfriend and all odf a sudden she decides that it's time to quit messing around? I have serious opinions about kissing birds on their beaks but I'm sure that something will happen in the future that will make you decide to stop that stuff.

I'm not gonna ask you why you're doing what you're doing. You obviously have reasons which you feel are legitimate.The other person has seen the bird and likes him and is willing to take him. You should also give the cage to the person. You should tell the person that the cage must be also taken at the same time as she takes the bird. Put the bird in a pet carrier, the size that you would normally use for a small animal such as a rabbit. Have the person be there when you do it. Give the bird to the person and tell her to immediately go home with the bird and put the bird in it's cage as soon as possible. Giving a bird away doesn't mean it will become a plucker even if the moving is not done right. Tell the person about the bird's daily habits. Give the person the food it normally eats plus it's toys. If there's a playstand that the bird uses, give it to the person. Afterward, it's the new person's responsibility concerning the bird. It's pretty simple. PS--I'll add one other thing---Ask the person if she needs more help conconcerning her new bird. If she says yes, that it would be nice, just give her the name of our website and the members here will guide and help her out in any way possible greyforums.net forums Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/03 19:07<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/03 23:59

I totally and completely agree with Penny ( Talon). That idea is INSANE. Wat makes you think that a bird will take to a horse. Penny is right. They spook very easily. So, you're gonna be holding onto the horse's harness and the bird's harness. Scenario..The horse spooks. The bird jumps. You've got 2 harness. The b ird's harness isn't long enough. You hold the bird's harness. The bird is swinging in mid air and is frantic. No where to go. Possible injuries to bird. In the meantime, you're calming the horse while the bird is swinging in mid air. Second scenario--the bird's harness allows the bird to land on the ground. The bird is still frantic. The bird is attached to the harness and is near the horse's hoof. One quick move and the horse's hoof squishes and splatters the bird all over the place. How quickly can a horse spook? Well, at race tracks, the racing horse has to be walked out to the starting gate and needs to be accompanied by another horse who it's friends with. The horse walking with the race horse is the one that keeps the racing horse calm until it gets to the starting gate. I won't even tell you to think about. I'll simply say FORGET IT. Recently, we had a person here who got the crazy idea of putting his bird on a motorcyle and riding in the back woods. Well, I'm not gonna tell you what happened. Bird harnesses aren't made for the reasons you're thinking of.

""""The vet mentioned that we would need to bring her back in if her behaviour changes"""" And what behavior is that?

It's possible that she has a very tiny chip in her upper beak which causes them to lick it to wear it down. They do that for long periods of time. Greys also like to put a tiny feather in their mouth, wet it down and roll it around in the upper roof of the beak. Many times, this can go on for hours. They enjoy doing that but if what she's doing looks unnatural to you it's best that you see the vet about it. If there doesn't seem to be anything drastic going on even though she's doing that, that may give you a bit of time to find another vet if you don't wanna go back to this one.

My dearest Caroline """""""We are the sexiest old duffle bags you will ever get to keep your pumps in!"""""""" Here in the wonderful US, pumps refer to women's high heels and the last time I looked, I don't seem to have taken that route yet but thanks for looking upon me as alluring and sensual. There's wonderful things I could whisper in your ear but unfortunately, you're married and so am I. Another time, another place, another board? Who knows what might happened with the two of us. Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/03 01:37<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/03 07:47

"""We are beautiful Louis Voitton handbags"""" He's 21th century now. he's added the *Sag Focus* to his new lines of old bags. It's the Reality phase. People wanna fit in the main stream of every day society. They look at all of you and say 'GEE, I also want that country farm lady weathered look.' They figure looking like that will save them loads of money cause they won't need the makeup anymore. After all, who wears makeup when they're pitching hay and feeding the hogs??

Well, listen all of you, dye it or not, have the surgery or not. You all still look like a bunch of wrinkled up old and used duffle bags.

Do the reverse. Let them see what you're doing so that when the brand new you appears it won't be a mental shock. I know you were think about plasic surgery but lay off the plastic surgery. That would be difficult for them to handle.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/02 22:21

More than likely the vet will charge about $40 just to check the leg for any breaks or fractures. If he spots something an X ray will be required. The price for procedures is different from vet to vet. """"She is walking and climbing around as normal and doesn't exhibit any limping, or any reduced ranges of movement and motion.""""" There are no breaks or fractures in that area. The claw is simply distended and eventually straightens itself after the minor trauma fades. What you say above couldn't happen if there was a break or fracture. As was said, stop with the peroxide. The blood probably came from the base of the claw and that quickly congeals. Peroxide burns the flaps on a bird's foot.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/02 20:17

The official time is 10 to 12 hrs but there are parrots that will wake up before that and start their morning chatter especially when they're covered and there's no way to increase their sleep time. If they've woken up and start their morning routine, that means that they've slept enough. Otherwise, if they didn't get enough they would simply keep on sleeping until nature tells them to wake up.

If your main worry is about your bird not wanting to live or stay in that cage for long periods of time...the bird came to you with certain likes, dislikes, habits. One of those concerns cages. There are birds that are called *cage bound*. These birds were never allowed out of their cage from when they were extremely young. After a while, the birds actually get used to their cage and have no desire to come out. Every time they're taken out, they get wild, will thrash about and sometimes will bite. Everything to make the bird happy is put into that cage making the bird not want to come out even more. As time goes on, they stay *cage bound* for good. The situation with your bird isreversed. He was never kept in a cage, was given everything he needed out of the cage including food and toys. He has no desire to go to an area that doesn't allow him to do the same things that an aviary setting provides. You're doing the same thing with your bird---feeding him out of the cage, building very natural type surroundings which all parrots wouldfind enjoyable. You also put food in his cage and he goes there and eats and leaves. In his eyes, that cage is one large food/water feeding area. I also looked at your picture. If I was a bird and I had the choice of the area that you built and a cage nearby, the cage would lose out very quickly. You just may have a bird that has developed a permanent liking for an aviary setting and that's not unusual. There's people that have many birds and keep those birds in large bird rooms designed just for birds. There's usually cages in the room but rarely will you see any of those birds in the cages all at the same time. Some may sleep in them and others won't. Some will eat in them and others won't. Most of the time, these people provide a central area in the room where the birds can get food and water without having to go to a cage. You can't make the bird like a small enclosure and getting an even smaller enclosure ( sleeping cage) just makes the situation worse. If you were used to living in a big house with a big backyard and small swimming pool and sundeck, would you like moving into a 2 room apartment? This just might be a situation you'll have to live with. Simply put, he wants the freedom that he's alwways had. PS--your bird falling down--greys are clumsy birds who will periodically fall off their perches for different reasons. Rarely do they hurt themselves. They're more surprised than hurt and when that happens you should allow the bird to walk over tio whatever it wants and do what it wants such as climbing up a pole, playstand or whatever he fell off of.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/01 22:53

Right now, that's a hard question to answer. Some greys will lose 1 or 2 tail feathers periodically but there's no particular time when that happens. The cause of that is that the feathers are dead and new ones are coming in. Other greys will lose 3,4, sometimes 5 all at once and the reason is exactly the same as above. The next time this happens, you might see just one feather. It all has to do with coincidence. The same thing happens with wing feathers. Sometimes just one falls out,sometimes 3 or 4. Right now, you need to watch him and see if he's intentionally trying to pull those feathers out or chewing them. Sometimes a big change in environment can cause a bird to lose feathers. If your bird isn't a plucker, you should see new growth within a few weeks. For now, just watch what how's doing because dealing with a plucker is totally different than dealing with a bird that's just lost feathers because it was time for them to fall out.

Hi This is a board that basically deals with hookbills. You'll get a much better answer from boards that deal with doves and pigeons. forums.doves.net

In your situation, the relationship with you more than likely won't be an issue because of the size of their living space. For every person that has successfully put 2 birds into one cage, there's at least 50 people who try that unsuccessfully. You're suppling an aviary type environment. That can happen in a bird or a roomy enclosure. What you have is not even a cage. In something that large, birds tend to leave each other alone and get together when they please. As I already said, it's simply a matter of giving each bird an area to retreat to. Doing that promotes a more natural situation in which more than likely, they will eventually get along with each other. Greys who are possessive, jealous and aggressive with their home ( cage) will lose that personality temporarily when put together in a large enclosure type area. Their relationship with you, whatever it is, won't change. The only problem you may run into uis the establishment of a bond with that new bird. If doing what you intend to do will prevent you from having a physical relationship with that bird, it'll stay that way unless you interact with the bird from the get go. Each bird needs to know that whatever relationship with you exists, it needs to be reinforced. Some people run into problems when they decide to get another bird to cheer the other one up and many times, that just doesn't work because of a grey's basic natural personality. It doesn't sound like you're getting another grey for that reason. A large enough enclosure will allow each bird to develop and maintain their own personality but in order to do this, they need space. You're suppling that space. I have greys that are very possessive and it's imperitive that they each have their own home. I have a 10 ft sq collapsible aviary which I put out in my backyard every summer. All of them are put in there and their flock personality emerges. No major fights, minor nipping, chasing, establishing who's gonna be the boss of that particular day,sometimes playing, relaxing, taking in nature, babbling all day long. Their playing has faded because all are adults and the thrill of playing isn't as attractive anymore. So my opinion is that I don't see trouble in the future.

It sems that because you might need a divider ( which I'm not saying you must have) and because your enclosure is extremely big, I see no problems in trying that out. You just need to make sure that there's a double amount of food bowls, there should be areas where each bird can leave the other if necessary and with ease. Don't have things positioned so that they MUST rub shoulders. It's gonna take a while for each bird get used to the idea that there's another around. One may act like the alpha. That's not unusual. In the beginning you need to keep a close watch on things and watch their behavior towards each other. Just because both are greys doesn't mean they'll get along with each other. Your area is very large and many people would use that size to house many small birds and and as the species gets bigger, the amount of birds in that area lessens. So, try it out. That young bird will be frightened. Don't try and force them to be friends. Birds have different ways of being friends with each other, some obvious, some not. Good luck. PS--you ask about other multiple bird owners..Yes there are those owners in that catagory but if they don't have that size enclosure ( which most don't) they would go with individual cages or choose another method which is a large bird room. Most of those size rooms are larger than yours but they usually have more than 2 birds living in them.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/01 05:08

People are always told to go to good breeders. A person starts to know what to look for after hearing many people talk about the different good points about the breeders they've dealt with. No one breeder is perfect. Some good breeders have some methods of doing things that may not rub certain people the right way. For anyone writing a book as you say you might do, I'll tell you how a breeder is chosen by people. Good breeders Breeder A --has lots of good methods along with certain methods that aren't accepted by people because of what they're told by others. It doesn't make breeder A irresponsible or a bad breeder. Breeder B---has methods that aren't known to many people but the success rate is eventually proven to be consistent. Breeder C---puts great importance on certain things but not as much on other things which many people won't really see the importance of. It doesn't make them bad breeders. So a person can look at A, B and C and see what's important to them. The person is told to check out different breeders if possible and we as a group tell the people what questions to ask. I tell people not to expect the answer they're hoping for because with too many subjects, there's a million smaller more specific questions and answers embedded in that main question. Breeders know this and offer to help in the future if problems arise because they know that these more specific questions will eventually come to the surface. Bad Breeders A person who put the value of money above the value of a living creature even though that money will eventually arrive but not as quickly. The breeder sells unweaned birds to people without knowing what their qualifications are concerning the care of an unweaned bird. That breeder will use inferior stock and many hens eventually push out birds that aren't good birds from the very beginning. There's much more that can be said about good and bad breeders but I figure that this enough to show you that there just insn't one fence with good on one side and bad on the other. People can have good experiences with bad breeders and people can have bad experiences with good breeders. I don't quite remember but if you're the person that decided to come here to make some type of statement concerning the banning of breeders, just remember that the bird you're holding in your hand in your avatar wouldn't be here unless 2 birds got together in an environment that was controlled by people. AND try to think about the people out there that couldn't handle adult pre owned birds. Those people deserve to own a pet that they can start off with on an even playing field. Anytime you think that you can handle pre owned birds, just look me up. After all, if breeding was banned, the only thing left would be pre owned birds. I have access to quite a few and they wouldn't hesitate to very seriously injure and bite the fingers that you'll be using to write or type that book with. AND, guess what? The birds I'm referring to came from very good breeders. It's the owners of the birds that weren't too good and if those people had gotten very young birds, they wouldn't have had those problems. Wanna write a book? Remember that you're gonna have to deal with all aspects of bird ownership, not just the people who had those birds for the first few months of their lives and it takes a person who's got many, many, many years of experience to pull that off.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/01 01:12

There realy isn't much you can do with a hormonal female amazon. They're different that the males who's only change in behavior is temporarily becoming more aggressive. A hen will concentrate on doing exactly what yours is doing through the whole hormonal phase. DYH are the worst. The only thing you can do is keep her away from her favorite places. Block her off. It really doesn't matter what you're doing. Take her down, she goes right up again over and over. You talk about putting her in the cage. You should increse the amount of times in the cage when you do that. Luckily, the hormonal cycle won't last very long. It's difficult for you and it's simply frustrating for her. Now if you had a male, then you'd have real problems. If part of her diet incluses grapes and corn material, stop giving those things to her. Those things stimulate the desire to nest.

I'm gonna be very honest with you and people here are gonna get angry with me but I feel that you're dealing with your problem in the wrong way and it's not your fault. I also wanna say that you're not the only one that has problems thrown at people who can't cope. A major word concerning a troublesome bird is *relapse*. Many birds go through relapses concerning all different types of things. It could have to do with eating, biting, behavior, feather plucking/chewing, aggression, withdrawing from all that's around, screaming, being unfriendly, lack of bonding with anyone in the house. All of that creates distrust between the person and the bird. I know that there's things going on that would need to be approached in specific ways but unfortunately, those specific things are the types that need long periods of time in order to get corrected. Also, a person may have a lifestyle that's perfectly normal but not right concerning the ownership of a wild animal which is what parrots are. Some people are in situations where the lifestyle can be changed while others will have their lifestyle damaged if changes are instituted. It may have to do with friends, family, traveling, working hours, vacations, other pets ( most of which are domestic animals). You're dealing with another animal who has a serious illness and lots of extra attention must be given on a constant basis. This may be an exhausting strain mentally. Many things that you're doing with the bird aren't the proper things to do but I can understand why you do them which is simply because you have no other way to deal with the many problems that arise with him. Interfering with your everyday situations and habits can be straining and people build their lives around those habits. It's not something that can be changed quickly if ever. Then there's children involved. The children can't be put into an uncomfortable situation on a daily basis. There may be things going on that your bird does which may not disturb other people who know how to deal with those things. They know routines and methods to use but most of the time, those people are home most of the time and can devote a lot of effort into changing things. This is not to say that you should stay home more because your habits and situations and lifestyle would be drastically altered. It's obvious to me that that's happening already only because of what you're saying. A very important thing here is your ability to handle relapses and I can guarantee you that because of what you describe, there will be relapses, many relapses and it's not your fault. Many times, a happy medium can't be reached between a bird that's extra troublesome and a person who is overwhelmed by that type of constant behavior. Many people here can give many suggestions but most of those suggestions will take a concentrated long term effort on your part and many people aren't in a situation where they can do that and it's not their fault. So, maybe you're not the type of person who can handle a very troublesome bird and that too isn't your fault. Who knows, maybe you can handle a bird that is much less trouble. I don't know you but your words say a lot. The cure here is long term concentrated effort, the ability to understand that relapses happen, the knowledge that what's going on will be upsetting yet can be coped with. So, maybe your happiness is being interfered with and only you know how important it is to have that happiness so the words that you used to start off this thread may actually betrue. It's a serious decision that you have to make. I realize that in the past, people have already given you suggestions but maybe, the important word that was left out was *relapse*.

Well, why don't you just give you're opinion as to the difference between the two? By the way, do you believe that bird breeding should be banned? If so, why do you think that should be?

You writing a book?