shanlung

Judygram Thank you! Atlas_mom, Welcome to this forum. Your account of Atlas here and in other threads are remarkable! I am intrigued by all that you have done. I have been in a few other forums for flighted birds, clicker training and training for free flight that you will be very highly regarded for what you have done. Perhaps you just lurk there and did not write. But if you and your husband trained Atlas all on your own, then it is even more to your credit as there can be so many pitfalls. It will be great if you post some photos of your Atlas flying about outdoor. I look forward to that. Warmest regards Shanlung

What I will give to have Tinkerbell to poop onto my back or anywhere on me

xxbeccyxx wrote: This is also for Trina who wrote privately to me as well. There is nothing wrong about feeling scared of this process. Everything that we do has its risks, that we can only minimise and not totally eliminate. NEVER EVER BE COMPELLED TO DO WHAT YOU ARE FRIGHTENED OF. YOU MUST NOT DO ANYTHING BECAUSE OTHERS HAD DONE THAT. You must know that your greys are empaths and can read the emotions that you have. If you are frightened, that will affect your grey. They are nervous enough without you adding your fear vibes to them. Your fear of their flying away might well trigger their flying away. It may not be that bad if you take small steps at a time, steps that you are comfortable with. If not, then it is far better that you do not do that. Read Tinkerbell Legacy, Part 2 of Tink webpage. See if you can prepare your house or apartment to make that safe for your grey to fly in. Train together with your grey at home. The training is as much for you as for your parrot. For the both of you to understand flight and training of recalls in safe environment and to know each other better. Then when you are very comfortable with flying at home, look for a bigger safe place (treble checking that for safety) to fly him/her in. Even though that place is safe (no way of exiting to outside), your heart will pound and beat away like nothing you ever dreamed of, in fear and in exhilaration. If you ever think of taking him/her to the open, it is a must that you do semi freeflights in big confined space. You must find that fear and still that fear in your heart. If not, you both can live happily ever after at home. There is no hurry and no timetable for you to take your parrot outside. With their age, and your age, you have the rest of eternity to do that, or even not to do that as you wish. The primary harness that I use is the trust and the comfortness we have with each other when we go out. The Tinkerbell harness and leash is the secondary harness in case of spook or my stupidity.

If you read those episodes with Tinkerbell, you will read now and then she gave me manicure. It is interesting why that happened. Even with our relationship, I was very wary at first when she got on my shoulders. I would put my hand up between her and my face to control her beak just in case. I also thought it to be a good idea in case she got bored and want to bite, I rather let her bite my fingers than my cheek. Instead, she got on to giving my fingers a good manicure. Do read what I wrote about training parrot 'Parrot on shoulder being gentle'. http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/wbeinggentle.html

Talon and adding to what dblhelix said, greys not clipped are amazingly agile and not clumsy at all. Look at this video of Tinkerbell gyrating about on this swing. She deliberately spin the ring around just for the heck of it. Can anyone imagine this of their clipped grey? Karla, My entire apartment was their cage. The cages had the door wired opened most of their time and served largely as one of their many feeding/water stations. Tinkerbell slept in my bookshelf and Yingshiong slept on the top of the windchime.<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/07/29 02:55

In view of the recent thread on free flying, I adding this note to bring this old thread up again

From mountain top where we can see forever And valleys dotted with hotsprings in between the mountains And village in Southen Taiwan, Kenting where she flew to me in force 7 crosswinds And to seashores such as this in Green Island Hi folks, I am sorry to have been away from here so long. A few other things had happen since I was last here. When I came to Australia in Nov 06, I prepared plans for Yingshiong future if my wife joined me here It was another painful goodbye that I had to say to Yingshiong. That was on the 7 May 07. I flew back to Singapore to be with him, and then to hand him over to the Jurong Bird Park. If you go there, please ask to see Yingshiong at the South East Asia Aviary and listen to him singing there. Leaving Yingshiong was painful even if not of the magnitude when I first had to say goodbye to Tinkerbell. I was lucky in that I flew back to Brisbane on that same evening. My wife was left in Singapore for a few weeks to be surrounded by YS things and the silence in the apartment. The only way to prevent that is to close our hearts entirely. Then there will be no pain, and no beauty or magic either. You can read those last few days with Yingshiong in here. (warning, not happy reading) http://shanlung.livejournal.com/2007/05/ The leaving of Tink is more than a throbbing hurt. Much of my life still evolve around her. When I went to work in Riyadh Saudi Arabia, I was hoping that would lead me back to Taiwan. Then I realised that was not going to be the case and my wife understandably refused to live with me in Saudi Arabia. I could not fly back to Taiwan to see Tink and ignore seeing my wife. Thats why I am now in Brisbane down under. Where my wife is willing to come and live with me here. We can both visit Taiwan together as Tink is her daughter too. My wife is here for about 2 month already. We just shifted out a couple weeks ago from my old flat to another with a balcony at least where I can interact with birds and beasts. After YS, we decided we cannot cope with another farewell. I promised my wife the only birdies that get into the apartment will be grilled, fried or curried. I hope to make friends with the lorikeets , or pied magpies or cockatos or anything else outside in the balcony. They first might be attracted by food I place out for them. Then perhaps one might chose to be my companion and bonded with clicker training with me. Hopefully, future partings with the wild birds might not be so traumatic on us. But so far, only crows and bush turkeys came to enjoy the food. A couple of currowongs would eat from my hands. Evenings will have bush tail possums dining from the fruits and cooked sweet potatoes. Hopefully in time, sugar gliders will dine with them as well. I also found some other photos on YS in my wife laptop. Three are below. I hope you enjoy them. More are in http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanlung/

I like to think that Tinkerbell website is the most thoroughly documented on the training on how to have a flighted CAG and how to live with a flighted CAG. Check out earlier writings I did here such as on clipping and in my intro here. Here is a letter I wrote recently in another forum that might help this thread. Re: Dangers of Flying outside on a Harness? Risk? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edd, As Sally said, be careful of hawks! And in addition to that, be careful of everything else too. Be very paranoid. Taiwan has eagles, kites, hawks, huge ravens. And cats, dogs, wildcats. If you read what I wrote before, I was paranoid even of pigeons and pigeon size birds. You need to use your eyes and paranoia. Even so, that will not be enough and you must depend on the even more acute vision and hearing of your bird. If you follow the steps I set out, from living literally with your flighted bird at home, to semi freeflight in big confined safe buildings, you will develope a rapport to a very high degree. You might know to see the emotional state of your bird. BUT TO FLY THEM OUTSIDE SAFELY EVEN WITH HARNESS, YOU MUST BE ABLE TO SEE THE NUANCES OF THEIR EMOTIONS. Otherwise, how can you make use of their more acute senses if you cannot read them screaming silently to you of the danger that they can see but you cannot see? Thats why I always kept nagging that you never ever assume Alphaship on flighted bird. You then watch only if they respond or not respond to you. Treating them as equal and as friend and in making request to friend, you train yourself to see their moods and know to vary your requests to them and see their moods if they will respond or not. Of all technical stuff I wrote , the most important part will be YOU MUST CONSIDER YOURSELF AS THEIR EQUAL AND NOT SUPERIOR. The technique stuff that you need to know and execute are so simple in comparison. NEVER EVER FLY THEM OUTSIDE IF THEY SHOW YOU THE LEAST AMOUNT OF DISCOMFORT. ALWAYS TAKE YOUR CARRIER WITH YOU AS A SAFE REFUGE TO POP THEM BACK INTO Summary of flying in harness here. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/8284.html

From mountain top where we can see forever And village in Southen Taiwan, Kenting where she flew to me in force 7 crosswinds Hi Dan, and hi folks, It is nice to know you all are paranoid about flying outdoors. I really rather you folks be very paranoid than complacent even if you take your birdies outside on harness. Here is a letter I posted just on this topic a few days ago on 28 June. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Re: Dangers of Flying outside on a Harness? Risk? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edd, As Sally said, be careful of hawks! And in addition to that, be careful of everything else too. Be very paranoid. Taiwan has eagles, kites, hawks, huge ravens. And cats, dogs, wildcats. If you read what I wrote before, I was paranoid even of pigeons and pigeon size birds. You need to use your eyes and paranoia. Even so, that will not be enough and you must depend on the even more acute vision and hearing of your bird. If you follow the steps I set out, from living literally with your flighted bird at home, to semi freeflight in big confined safe buildings, you will develope a rapport to a very high degree. You might know to see the emotional state of your bird. BUT TO FLY THEM OUTSIDE SAFELY EVEN WITH HARNESS, YOU MUST BE ABLE TO SEE THE NUANCES OF THEIR EMOTIONS. Otherwise, how can you make use of their more acute senses if you cannot read them screaming silently to you of the danger that they can see but you cannot see? Thats why I always kept nagging that you never ever assume Alphaship on flighted bird. You then watch only if they respond or not respond to you. Treating them as equal and as friend and in making request to friend, you train yourself to see their moods and know to vary your requests to them and see their moods if they will respond or not. Of all technical stuff I wrote , the most important part will be YOU MUST CONSIDER YOURSELF AS THEIR EQUAL AND NOT SUPERIOR. The technique stuff that you need to know and execute are so simple in comparison. NEVER EVER FLY THEM OUTSIDE IF THEY SHOW YOU THE LEAST AMOUNT OF DISCOMFORT. ALWAYS TAKE YOUR CARRIER WITH YOU AS A SAFE REFUGE TO POP THEM BACK INTO. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa For more on harness, read this summary in livejournal Harness for flighted parrots - To Nick and folks http://shanlung.livejournal.com/2005/06/10/ A more detailed discussion on harnessing your parrot in Harness for Trish - and to Michelle and other readers here http://shanlung.livejournal.com/2006/03/07/

Monique, When I ride slowly and like Tink to be up on bar, she rather stayed below. And when I ride fast and did not want her there, she would get right up. She took perverse joy in frustrating and frightening me. I should wring her neck! Fairy, I have no idea of her spanwidth. It seems very large in all her flighted photos, even those taken at home. Shanlung

Rachel, You want Alfie to be flighted you must know how to look after flighted birds. It is a heavy responsibility together with happiness beyond what you can imagine. Read Tinkerbell Legacy, how to live with flighted parrot at home. You will find that in http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/ Shanlung

Folks I like to introduce you to another of my companion. He is a white rumped shama called Yingshiong, chinese for heroic warrior. He is a gift from Tinkerbell. Shamas are classified as 'aviary birds'. They are among the most timid of birds but they are also the best song birds in the world. Yingshiong was borned wild and was old when he came to me. You can see from the daily blog I kept that he flew to me on recall within a month. Breeders of 4 decades of experience with shamas told me my photos are the first ever of a male shama landing on a human. You can see how I adapted what I wrote in Tinkerbll Legacy to work with a shama instead. Why a shama? I just could not get another parrot into my life even then. In a few days, I have to say goodbye to him which will be apparent in another letter I will attached here later. That will still be painful even if not of the magnitude when I first had to say goodbye to Tinkerbell. The only way to prevent that is to close our hearts entirely. Then there will be no pain, and no beauty or magic either. The leaving of Tink is more than a throbbing hurt. Much of my life still evolve around her. When I went to work in Riyadh Saudi Arabia, I was hoping that would lead me back to Taiwan. Then I realised that was not going to be the case and my wife understandably refused to live with me in Saudi Arabia. I could not fly back to Taiwan to see Tink and ignore seeing my wife. Thats why I am now in Brisbane down under. Where my wife is willing to come and live with me here. We can both visit Taiwan together as Tink is her daughter too. Only recently we decide my wife is to join me here even though I been here since Nov 06. If it was just the two of us, she would have been here with me from the beginning. But we have Yingshiong to consider about. If both of us were to leave Singapore together, that will be the end of chapter with Yingshiong. And he did wiggle into our hearts much as we tried not to let that happen. As Jayne mentioned she like to see Tinkerbell Interlude, here is a letter which is a good precursor to that episode. And also partly explain why I am in Brisbane. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa http://shanlung.livejournal.com/65169.html 2006-11-16 Tinkerbell Interlude photoset and videos, and start of next chapter of life Hello to all my friends around the world, The last couple of days were spend in collating the photographs and videos taken during the Tinkerbell Interlude, a period from 1st November to 8th November when I was in Taiwan to be with Tinkerbell again. I sort the photos to cover the day by day with Tinkerbell. The Livejournal entries now have the appropriate photos in them that better illustrate some of the events I wrote about. The videos are also embedded in the Livejournal entries. You find that in http://shanlung.livejournal.com/2006/11/ Tinkerbell flights were very weak at the beginning. Yu treated her too well, taking delicacies and tea to her. As a result, she hardly had to fly. She never made recall flights to him for a long time. That led to him not trying to let her fly. That was a sad spiralling circle. It took me just one morning to put right in my "Retraining the trainer". Tinkerbell needed to be reminded of the joy of flying, and given the chance to fly again. In the videos at Chiayi Park Confucious temple, you can hear clearly the heavy landings she made on me, none of those feather soft landings of before. It was only a week later, that I trusted her with longer flights at BanTienYen. Look at the video where she flew at me, circled off with the leash screaming from the reel and her breaking off and returning to me. The photosets can be seen here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanlung/sets/ You can also see the videos here. http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=shanlung You should see that from bottom up starting from Confucious temple flights. Why I went to Taiwan for this short holiday can be told now. When I left Saudi Arabia, I went to Brisbane Australia and accepted a 4 year contract to work and live there. I came back to Singapore to do the paper work to get that work visa for Australia. I knew my time frame will be short. So I had to see Tinkerbell when I could. It was lucky that I did so. Yesterday, I received news that the visas for me and my wife Joy were granted. I hoped to start there early next year. That company then wanted me over asap. We compromised in that I fly over to Brisbane on 26th November starting 27th November 2006. My wife will remain in Singapore for a few months until the work and company find us mutually agreeable for that long term. Then she will fly over and live with me in Australia. This started when I was working and living in Riyadh , Saudi Arabia. Then I read this BBC article in June about the Russian tundra melting. We knew that would happen. But I thought that to be a consequence of global warming. That article then described the CO2 and methane trapped in the past to be coming out now. So instead of the permafrost melting as a consequence, that might well be a timebomb giving us even less time in a world and society that we know. I rather enjoy life with my wife NOW, than to make lots of money in Riyadh for a future rather uncertain. There were other reasons, but my preference is to enjoy the time that is left to me and my wife. Working and living in Brisbane Australia will be much better than in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia even if the pay is less. Perhaps, what I wrote ten years back might make interesting reading for you. http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/oldluddite.html I will not argue if you think differently. In fact, I hoped you are right, for the sake of my son and your children, that we will have a lot more time in the future. If true leaders are found and all of us ready and able to accept the drastic changes in our current lifestyles. Rather difficult isnt it? That bring up what will happen to Yingshiong should and when my wife joins me in Australia. You note that I deliberately had to fly back to Singapore from Taiwan as my wife flew to UK to see her nieces. By the way, Yingshiong is in the PC room with me. He flew in to join me as I wrote this rather long letter. If I ignored him too long, he would hover over my head. So I do a few recalls for the chance to treat him with millis. I love YS too, even if not at the level at the soul as that with Tinkerbell. Should me and my wife cannot look after YS, I will not allow YS to be back into a round cage. I had discussed with Taufik with the various possibilities and he agreed with me. Yingshiong might go into the Jurong Bird Park in the waterfall aviary. This is the largest walk-in aviary in the world. I have had discussions with the highest level and given an in-principle approval for Yingshiong. There are 4 resident male shamas there and one or two females among lots of other birds. It will be a life and death struggle for Yingshiong. But I think YS is a prime 4-5 years old. I believe he will fight and be dominant or at least carve out a space for himself. So if anyone go there in future, you might be hearing Yingshiong singing up in the canopy of trees. My friend BK offered Yingshiong a permanent place in his huge aviary, and beautiful shama wife for him too. But no one other than me , BK, and a few of his friends will ever hear Yingshiong again. He will be safe there, pampered for the rest of his life. BK aviary seen here http://shanlung.livejournal.com/64879.html Another option will be to release Yingshiong back into the appropriate forest. This might have the risk that he is unable to integrate back into nature or capture by other people to be kept in a cage again. It is yet too early to decide now. Warmest regards Shanlung aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaa It was decided that my wife will be joining me in Brisbane in early June and I need to see to the future of Yingshiong. Flash over to today and my latest entry in my livejournal. I just landed into Singapore early this morning and back into apartment. After hugging my wife who was about to leave for her office, Ivan greeted me with meows and figure of eight curls around my ankle. Yingshiong looked at me from his flight room and flew about with excitment. Sorrowfully, I incarcerate Ivan for YS to fly out. YS did not fly to me yet on cue as expected. This trip is made specially to walk Yingshiong into his next chapter. I first spend a few days with him and on Monday, he will be taken to Jurong Bird Park. Then in the evening, I fly back to Brisbane. I waffled and flip flop between JBP or my friend huge aviary. Between the beauty of living in dangerous world against the cocoon of a safe aviary of my friend For him to engage in life/death struggle with all the magic or a safe existence He will be living in the largest aviary in the world, the JBP waterfall aviary I will be leaving apartment soon to buy YS succulent crickets. I will spoil him rotten over the next few days. shanlung

I should hold my peace. And perhaps this letter should not be written as I written much earlier. But it seemed to me that those earlier letters I wrote warning that clipping wings do not necessary meant birds will not then be able to fly away were totally disregarded. For those who stumbled onto here without reading earlier letters, I will repost elements from two letters written earlier. Clipping of wings probably lead to loss of even more birds than knowing how to live with flighted birds. People clip wings thinking that their bird will not fly away. I honestly have nothing against the way people chose to keep their flock. No one should allow others to pressure them one way or other into any prescribed way. They and only they alone must decide. But they should know as much as they can , not relying on the word of anyone alone, less of all, not from me. But to think that clipping of wings will meant bird will be safe is so unsafe that that is frightening to me. Trimming wings is about the worse measure to try to stop birds from flying away. In fright and with wind gust, clipped birds will , and can fly away. By trimming feathers, you lull yourself into a false state of mind that all is safe. Then when the clipped bird fly away in fright up a tree, the very lack of those clipped feathers meant that bird cannot fly down to you again. Those who live with flighted birds will know that flying down is one of the hardest act EVEN WITH ALL FEATHERS INTACT. Successful flying down from high points require much more skills than flying up in fright. If you think clipping prevent unwanted escapes then read extracts below aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa " lost cockatiel 'Tory' Lost cockatiel. Grey/yellowish pearl. Banded 03. ay come to 'Tory Bird'. Poor flier due to wing clipping. Email: dbrueck685@aol.com. White Lake, MI. Our bird was lost on 11-23-03 in the area of St. Petersburg, Fl. In the region of OLD NORTHEAST. We are heart broken over it, any info that is given will be greatly helpful, wings are clipped and can't fly There is a reward out for the return of the bird , under one year old. Email: ywwalker@mypetshop.com. St Petersburg, FL. Blue & Gold Macaw, Lost in Pembroke Pines, Fl Distinctive Forth black Line Under Eyes. Still Being Handfed. Wings Were Clipped First two Wing feathers Still On. Lost On Sept. 21. Reward If Found. Email: mattshaninfl@aol.com. Pembroke Pines, FL. My daughter and I are so sad because my husband went outside on Saturday Feb. 24th at 3 o'clock and he had our little Mustached Parakeet. It's a female, and she was scared about the noise that my husband did with the trashcan, so she flew away. We try to find her, we gave to the people some flyers and we put some of them on the mail boxes, we look around our home where we thought that she can stay but anything happened. Our Parakeet Vet told us that she can't fly long distances because she has just 3 feathers on each side, she is missing 4 on each side. She was living inside the house in a warm weather and now outside is cold, the Vet thinks that she can survive outside but I don't know what we can do. We are missing her a lot. Her head is light gray, she has salmon-colored half breast, some of her tail feathers are turquoise, and some yellow on her wing feathers. We are living in Gilbert, Arizona. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa And this extract of letter to MrSpock In what Dave said , that is true in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we live in the real world. But most people then went on to extrapolate that then, their bird will never be able to fly away. That is where I draw that line. So after you got that 'perfect clip' and your parrot then fly about 8 feet and not gaining height. But again, have that clip been tested under worse case condition? Such as a sudden blast of air horn , or a strange hat thrust in front to see if that parrot cannot gain height in a spook situation? Can you bear to do a sudden spook, or allow others to do that to your parrot? To see if that clipped wings hold good in spook conditions? And with Murphy at your elbows, how about throwing in that gust of wind at the same time? Can you ever guarantee such conditions will never ever occur to you? People had thought so. Their parrot paid heavier price than they did. Your choice again to see if you can beat those odds. With that, I will not add anymore to this thread as I am already repeating myself. Shanlung

We should all just relax and step back. We have one thing in common whichever approach that we take. We all love our birds. No one must ever feel compelled to take one path over the other because of pressure exerted one way or other. Each situation can be so different that no single one way is the way for all. We all should know clearly all alternatives, the benefits and the risks , and then decide on what you wish to do without having to defend or give evil eye to other ways. Shanlung

TheGreyMiester, No offence intended on my part. I was referring to your stating ' and then clip the wings for training and getting used to each other. ' It seems that I might have read what you written out of context. Stating things have been done for decades surely should not be a factor if what they have done have been wrong and based on insufficient knowledge at that time. For decades too, parrots were recommended to be kept on perch with chain around the leg. For decades, sunflower seeds were advised by 'experts' thats all that greys need to be fed on. And about two hundred years back, 'experts' advised no water need be given to greys as they said then greys do not need water. Breeder of 4 decades of breeding shama told me when I started with Yingshiong that its impossible to get a male shama to fly to any human. When Yingshiong was an old bird, and originally caught from the wild, they felt my chances , especially as a beginner was zero. Within a month as can be seen from the blog, YS flew to me when given recall cue. Feel free to pay more heed to your breeder with 25 years experience. After all, my experience with grey is much less, and only on just one grey at that. Respectfully Shanlung

Is there this inate desire to clip wings? My earlier emails gave enough evidence clipping of wings will not stop unwanted flights from occuring. Do we now rationalise that to train and getting used to each other will require the wings to be clipped? With the inuendo that not clipping the wings meant therefore training cannot be done? Perhaps TheGreyMiester can explain that? If clipping is done from personal choice , I have no problem with that at all as I always maintain that to be a personal choice. But if clipping is presented as a pre-requisite for anything, very solid and meaningful arguments for that should also be given. Shanlung<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/04/18 03:02

In earlier email here, I mentioned of this footless CAG Tigger. Is your fully footed CAG more mobile? http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1236935906044864049xszLqM Shanlung Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/03/29 15:58<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/03/29 16:00

MrSpock wrote: Hi Dave, In an ideal world, what you say above may be right. The other extreme will be extremely severe clipping of wings. When I was in Riyadh and in a parrot shop, this grey jumped off the top of cage about 5 feet from ground. The sound of him hitting down, the spray of blood around him, and the screaming of that poor guy hurt me crazy. I do not wish ever to have another keel bone broken even if not in front of me. People clipped for a few key reasons. 1. They had been conditioned to that because of what they read or were told. This seemed to be peculiarly American. Tinkerbell wings were so nearly clipped by me at the beginning as the books I read all recommended that (all American books) as well as forums in 2002 when I first had Tinkerbell. I was lucky enough to bought a British parrot mag to give me second thoughts. 2. The sight of initial flights, the crashing into walls was extremely frightening and I thought my precious Tink was crazy in trying to fly through walls while I stumbled about chasing her with a pillow to cushion her falls after hitting the wall. Once again, I so nearly reached for that scissors and Tink the flyig grey of Taiwan so nearly did not exist. But that british mag persuaded me to let that continue for a few more days. She then found her flying skills to turn, slow, hover and stopped banging into walls. Folks, this episode is inevitable. Your birds may be natural fliers, but even so, they MUST develope their muscles , flying skills and sense of balance. But at this early stage, their speed will be very slow(even if it appeared fast to you) and chances of harm to them will be there. You can minimise this by letting them fledge in a small room, with curtains or rope nets around the walls for them to fly to and cling too. Or you can run around like me with a cushion. If you see a human toddler trying to walk and falling down, will you have fear for his/her safety and not ever let him discover balance and walk? Will you have him/her crawl for the rest of their life because you are afraid to see them fall? This is same as your choice for your bird. 3 By clipping wings and thinking thus the clipped bird will never fly away. I need not repeat my earlier postings of clipped birds that flown away. In what Dave said , that is true in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we live in the real world. But most people then went on to extrapolate that then, their bird will never be able to fly away. That is where I draw that line. So after you got that 'perfect clip' and your parrot then fly about 8 feet and not gaining height. But again, have that clip been tested under worse case condition? Such as a sudden blast of air horn , or a strange hat thrust in front to see if that parrot cannot gain height in a spook situation? Can you bear to do a sudden spook, or allow others to do that to your parrot? To see if that clipped wings hold good in spook conditions? And with Murphy at your elbows, how about throwing in that gust of wind at the same time? Can you ever guarantee such conditions will never ever occur to you? People had thought so. Their parrot paid heavier price than they did. Your choice again to see if you can beat those odds. On a different note Dave, I tried to log in to your old forum to let you and other friends there know about my last trip to be with Tink in Nov last year. If you did know, fine. If not, you might like to read this Tinkerbell Interlude photoset and videos, and start of next chapter of life. Also as to why I am now here in Brisbane , down under. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/65169.html Shanlung http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

Dave! I did not recognise your log-in name as I always known you as Dave. Only when Smokey came up that I thought it might be you. Some of the best conversations I have had was with you. If that was now, I would have copied that into my Livejoural. I was kind of sad those disappeared in the two occasions when that forum crashed. And from what I checked a week back, that crashed again. I am happy you acheived your brand of happiness with Smokey. You also recalled in your old British forum, I never advocate flight. Rather by my example and opening a window into my world with a flighted Tinkerbell, that others can consider this possibility too. It is as you said, a journey that only you can make yourself. From all I came across, and know deep in my heart, techniques are but a tiny portion. Much much more depend on the relationship between one and the parrot. You seen that in what I wrote to FairY. But those elements are difficult to discuss and she probably thought what I said to be a long winded telling her to be patient. I have had 5 cats and the only similarities they shared were that they meowed and have 4 legs. Their personalities were so vastly different. In which case parrots, and greys in particular, being much more intelligent will have personalites vastly more different. Your taking Smokey out in safety to see more of the world than the walls of the house will also shape your relationships. I feel sorry about your not using Tinkerbell harness design. I think your problem is that you just find it difficult to believe it is that simple to make. By the way, Tink harness weighs in at 3 (three) grams, the lightest most comfortable harness by far, the easiest to put on, and impossible for parrot to get out off. FairY, As I have been back a couple of times since writing that email, I couldnt have left here. I find your forum to be a nice place to be in. I just found that subject of asymmetrical wings clipping to be distasteful as I felt physically sick even thinking of that. I have been involved in discussions in other forums such as one where I tried to help this grey in Scotland to come out of psychosis. And a blind Tiny Tim TAG being lovingly looked after by a sweet lady and her famuily. Then at another place where this grey had no feet. Maybe you like to read an extract from below On footless CAGs and retiring Don Quixote http://shanlung.livejournal.com/66349.html aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa On footless CAGs and retiring Don Quixote At Grey Connection http://www.ParrotTalk.com, I got to know Kathy with a footless CAG the other day. I wrote: There is this other footless CAG called T kept by JC. I can not give full details as I had not cleared it with JC yet. T was nearly put down but JC took him in because of what she read of me and Tinkerbell and corresponded with me at early stage. We decided T be allowed to fledge and fly, which he did. As with any flighted bird, training for recalls and bonding became paramount importance. To cut a long story short, T became much more mobile than fully footed CAGs and bonded incredibly well with JC. Perhaps you should consider this option too. Shanlung Kathy came back with Thanks so much for the suggestion. At this time Banjo is flighted. I felt it was important for balance, mobility and confidence. I have absolutely no idea how to do recall with Banjo.. I have been reading the comments about keeping blind Tiny Tim flighted or not with great interest.. Banjo has started to do fright flights if I am too forward. So I think I need to sit back and just relax a bit with him. I used to be able to move him in his little cage to other places in the house and he could come out when he was ready. Now in his new larger cage he does not have a way to come out on his own. I guess I need to fix that. When he flies, he flies fast, really fast. I am concerned about his ability to choose to land somewhere rather that stopping by bashing into something. I am afraid he will hurt himself before he decides he has control Twice he has landed on a shelf, though rather abruptly. So it is a learning process, and I am open to suggestions. Kathy and Banjo By then, JC replied to me sending her regards to Kathy and allowed me to mentioned her I then wrote off to Grey Connection Hi Kathy, Ms Jean Clark and her Tigger send you and Banjo her regards. She will be happy to discuss with you on her experience with Tigger. You might like to see how Tigger is in http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1236935906044864049xszLqM In that folder, the earlier photos showed Tigger as a 20 day old chick to later photos with Tigger in flight. If you have a flighted parrot, there are a few things that you must do to avoid tragedy. You have to birdproof your house. You MUST TRAIN your Banjo to do recalls. That training will also develope that very important bond and mutual understanding between you and your Banjo. The training will not be difficult at all. I will be happy to help you with that. You should read Tinkerbell Legacy, or Part 2 in Tinkerbell main page http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/ You should read the rants on birdproofing the house, the mentality of parrot and clicker training. Then the final part 'Bringing it all together' Clicker training is important. You should also go into Part 1 - Early Period and read 'Some thoughts on clicker training' and 'clicker training and bonding' Kathy, you are not alone. You and Banjo have the goodwill of all who know you. Shanlung aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa From time to time, conversations like above will keep me from writing here. So silence from me never meant I left for good as I will be back. Shanlung

xandriasphynx, You understand you have a huge responsibility now. The reward is there as you have read of my saga with Tinkerbell. There are clear steps ahead of you as laid out in Tinkerbell Legacy. DO NOT LOOK FOR SHORTCUTS. In doubt, write to me here and cc to my direct email. Do not depend just on your 'bond'. That bond must be nutured via training. As that is a daily affair, make it fun for both of you. If you have not done formal clicker training, YOU MUST SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THAT. Read the stuff I written on clicker training. Understand the dangers if you want your grey to have flight. Believe me, you do not ever want to be inducted into the Overnighters club. Premature aging is only a small part of the price you pay. Greys are supremely intelligent , with far better eyesight and hearing than yours. They will see things that spook them without you haveing a clue why. The power of that spook is frightening. When I read of people walking their greys out saying they clamp their thumbs on the toes, I cringe. Take your time. Greys can live to 60-70 years. I want that grey to be with you till natural death part you both. Shanlung

FairY, I never advocate here or elsewhere that parrot must be clipped or unclipped. I have many more friends with clipped parrots than friends who liked them to be fully flighted. Amonge those who kept birds flighted, I am about the most low key and actually a source of unhappiness to those with flighted parrots as I never spoke out against clipping. I just show how life can be like with a flighted parrot that such possibility can be theirs if their circumstances allow that and if they are prepared to make the necessary changes to do that. That must remain the choice of the individual. No one must be pressured to take one or the other choice. I spoke only against the misconception that clipping of wings meant the clipped parrot cannot fly away. My mistake! I should have not disturbed the tranquility here. You are a real lady here and its a pleasure to know you. Sticks&stones If the wings are equally clipped, provided no spook and no wind gust and the parrot is laid back, the parrot can at least glide. If the clip is deliberately made assymetrical, the parrot cannot even glide. The imbalance will make the parrot spin every time he/she tries to use the wings. Try throwing a paper aeroplane with one wing bigger than the other. Even in just simple flapping to try to regain balance, that poor bird will find the balance gets even worse. But it is unlikely the parrot know its because of the wings had been deliberately cut that way. That way, a pathological fear is induced in his mind. You dare even flap your wings, you will go dizzy and sick. I just cannot see how we got the right to do that to the bird. That a self styled 'avian vet' can stoop so low,the only bird that vet should treat be the Norwegian Blues. Thats entirely my opinion or am I not allowed to have any opinion? So those who relished in absolute control should feel free to do so. I rather go smell the roses,to go back to other forums , watch TV than to come back here to continue this unworthy and extremely aggravating dispute. Goodbye Shanlung<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/03/16 02:24

That is not correct. The development of the bird neurons and later temperament appeared to be connected with flight. More and more, good breeders are allowing the chicks to fledge and fly for a few weeks prior to clipping, if ever done. Perhaps you did not read http://www.indonesian-parrot-project.org/Library/pam2.html Frankly, I am shocked that that 'avian vet' recommended only one wing to be clipped. So shocked that I have nothing to say, unless that 'avian vet' is prepared to come public to this or any parrot forum to defend that bizarre practise. Shanlung

In this bundled series of letters, I was talking about what I termed as the gyrodrop. That was in the context of the mechanics of bird flights as to how they fly downwards. You can gauge how much I know about the difficulties of birds flying downwards. Feel free to dispute with me on what I wrote, if you have some such experiences. About the end of that article, I suggest the best flight angle for you to induce your clipped or unclipped bird to fly back to you. You never know one day you might need to use this. An article from Part 1 Tinkerbell Early Period http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/w6gyrodrop.htm'>http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/w6gyrodrop.htm Shanlung http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9 And if above works for you and you are grateful, send a nice cheque to Gerald Durrells Wildlife Trust http://www.durrellwildlife.org/

Japie, Do not be so hard on yourself. His feathers will grow back again. It is paramount importance that you train and bond with him. A flighted bird must know and they will know certain rules of behaviour. You will find the compromise yourself. Do look into Tinkerbell Legacy. You can even say I wrote that for you. That you, and anyone else, can live with a flighted parrot in the house. Shanlung http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

Clipping of wings probably lead to loss of even more birds than knowing how to live with flighted birds. People clip wings thinking that their bird will not fly away. I honestly have nothing against the way people chose to keep their flock. No one should allow others to pressure them one way or other into any prescribed way. They and only they alone must decide. But they should know as much as they can , not relying on the word of anyone alone, less of all, not from me. But to think that clipping of wings will meant bird will be safe is so unsafe that that is frightening to me. Trimming wings is about the worse measure to try to stop birds from flying away. In fright and with wind gust, clipped birds will , and can fly away. By trimming feathers, you lull yourself into a false state of mind that all is safe. Then when the clipped bird fly away in fright up a tree, the very lack of those clipped feathers meant that bird cannot fly down to you again. Those who live with flighted birds will know that flying down is one of the hardest act EVEN WITH ALL FEATHERS INTACT. Successful flying down from high points require much more skills than flying up in fright. If you think clipping prevent unwanted escapes then read extracts below aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa " lost cockatiel 'Tory' Lost cockatiel. Grey/yellowish pearl. Banded 03. ay come to 'Tory Bird'. Poor flier due to wing clipping. Email: dbrueck685@aol.com. White Lake, MI. Our bird was lost on 11-23-03 in the area of St. Petersburg, Fl. In the region of OLD NORTHEAST. We are heart broken over it, any info that is given will be greatly helpful, wings are clipped and can't fly There is a reward out for the return of the bird , under one year old. Email: ywwalker@mypetshop.com. St Petersburg, FL. Blue & Gold Macaw, Lost in Pembroke Pines, Fl Distinctive Forth black Line Under Eyes. Still Being Handfed. Wings Were Clipped First two Wing feathers Still On. Lost On Sept. 21. Reward If Found. Email: mattshaninfl@aol.com. Pembroke Pines, FL. My daughter and I are so sad because my husband went outside on Saturday Feb. 24th at 3 o'clock and he had our little Mustached Parakeet. It's a female, and she was scared about the noise that my husband did with the trashcan, so she flew away. We try to find her, we gave to the people some flyers and we put some of them on the mail boxes, we look around our home where we thought that she can stay but anything happened. Our Parakeet Vet told us that she can't fly long distances because she has just 3 feathers on each side, she is missing 4 on each side. She was living inside the house in a warm weather and now outside is cold, the Vet thinks that she can survive outside but I don't know what we can do. We are missing her a lot. Her head is light gray, she has salmon-colored half breast, some of her tail feathers are turquoise, and some yellow on her wing feathers. We are living in Gilbert, Arizona. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa You should make your decision when you know what intend to do and the consequences . Take a look into what Pamela Clark wrote. Read that and then you decide. Feathers, Flight and Parrot Keeping http://www.indonesian-parrot-project.org/Library/pam2.html Shanlung