Wing clipping??

[carlylu]

MARIR wrote:

I'm for clipping, I am sorry but if one of my babies escaped I'd die, all it takes is one second, like my coworker who lost her cockatiel when her son opened the door while the bird was sitting on her shoulder...in a different room. the birds has not been seen again

 

The same thing happens with clipped birds all the time, the only difference is that they have an even greater chance of dying outside because they are totally vulnerable to cats, dog and other ground predators. I know of several cases personally where this has happened, and a couple fortunate ones in which the bird was finally found (up to a mile away, and yes, clipped.)

 

The only way to really be safe is to TRAIN your bird to come to you when called. Why is this such a difficult idea to get across? Don't people's dogs come when called? Even my cats come when they are outdoors and I call them. Why? Because they know they get a treat. Same with birds.

 

It frustrates me because people are often so quick to take the MOST drastic measure -- clipping -- to keep a bird "safe" (even though it is no guarantee) but won't spend the time to take the most effective measure, training. Not only does it help ensure you can one day retrieve your bird if needed, it is also a wonderful way to have fun with your bird, strengthen the bond between you, and help prevent behavioral problems (by giving the bird something challenging mentally and physically to do.)

 

raz

 

raz

[TheGreyMiester]

My breeder, who has 25 yeas experience even said to clip. Birds that can fly can get in just as much trouble as those with clipped wings. The trick is responsibility, the owner needs to be responsible and not let dogs, cats, lizards and lions, tigers and bears get at the bird. Also, no one said anything about "you can't train unless you clip" as I have read else ware. This is more of a personal preference that seems to affect us humans MORE than it does the bird.<br><br>Post edited by: TheGreyMiester, at: 2007/04/18 23:51

[shanlung]

TheGreyMiester,

 

No offence intended on my part. I was referring to your stating ' and then clip the wings for training and getting used to each other. '

 

It seems that I might have read what you written out of context.

 

Stating things have been done for decades surely should not be a factor if what they have done have been wrong and based on insufficient knowledge at that time. For decades too, parrots were recommended to be kept on perch with chain around the leg. For decades, sunflower seeds were advised by 'experts' thats all that greys need to be fed on.

 

And about two hundred years back, 'experts' advised no water need be given to greys as they said then greys do not need water.

 

 

Breeder of 4 decades of breeding shama told me when I started with Yingshiong that its impossible to get a male shama to fly to any human. When Yingshiong was an old bird, and originally caught from the wild, they felt my chances , especially as a beginner was zero.

 

Within a month as can be seen from the blog, YS flew to me when given recall cue.

 

Feel free to pay more heed to your breeder with 25 years experience. After all, my experience with grey is much less, and only on just one grey at that.

 

Respectfully

 

Shanlung

[TheGreyMiester]

shanlung,

 

My apologies also; I over reacted a bit. I will agree with you that any bird’s life is more fulfilled if allowed the freedom of flight. There are many variables that go with clipping or not clipping however.

[Granpooba]

I clip our birds wings ! Simple, simple !!

Reason being :

 

Would you want your bird flying full force into a window or a clear glass paned door. Breaking its neck and dropping dead if front of you ? Well, would you ??

 

Have heard of this happening time and time again.

[MARIR]

I have heard of this also, flying into a window or accidently hitting its wing on something and breaking it....no a pleasant idea either way. we've got a vet appt. tonight....wing trim and nail clipping...sorry charlie but no escapees are aloud. also Sam our sun conure is flying over and "pushing" our new african grey...and if i try to hold cag sam flies into my head and screeches. sorry but I think clipping is essential

[carlylu]

Granpooba wrote:

I clip our birds wings ! Simple, simple !!

Reason being :

 

Would you want your bird flying full force into a window or a clear glass paned door. Breaking its neck and dropping dead if front of you ? Well, would you ??

 

These things are also EASILY trainable. Clipping is a convenience for humans, not something that's done for the bird's benefit. While Carly has been learning to fly she has had to learn about walls, windows, sliding glass doors, ceiling fans etc. It can be done in a very methodical, sensible way. Parrots are VERY intellegent animals. The only excuse for these things being lethal dangers to them is total lack of exposure or training. Even my pigeon, a species not known for exceptional intellegence, was able to learn and navigate the household environment.

 

I don't want to sound harsh, but all it takes is a little time and training to make these things completely non-issues. For me, it's worth it to spend that kind of time with my bird rather than to use safety as an excuse to take the easy (and drastic) way out.

 

raz

[TheGreyMiester]

This is the only way I know how to express how I feel about this topic:

 

 

It's ok to clip.<br><br>Post edited by: TheGreyMiester, at: 2007/04/21 05:24

[carlylu]

I don't disagree that sometimes circumstances warrant clipping. However, much of what is brought up as the rationale for clipping is simply untrue. It is not a huge safety benefit (birds can and do still get loose, and end up on the ground, far away, or dead) and the spurious arguments about windows, ceiling fans, etc. are simply not issues for people with flighted birds who take the time to work with them. Are they not worth that little extra bit of our time, for what they provide to us, in exchange for being kept in captivity in something so far removed from their natural habitat that we can scarcely comprehend it?

 

I realize I feel strongly about this, but I think it is selfish to not even consider the alternatives. Greys especially are so affected mentally and psychologically by clipping. A breeder I know describes clipped and unclipped Greys as being almost like "a different species." It should just not be assumed that this is the right thing to do just because it has been the common thing to do for many years. There are alternatives, and safety indoors or out does not have to be compromised.

 

raz

 

raz

[Cortneypenn]

OK I have a question. I have had my grey since hand feeding age which is about 3 years ago. Always clipped her wings not because I am afraid of her flying but because she CONSTANTLY breaks her blood feather. . . (She loves to play rough on with her toys) In my situation I would hate to come home and see my precious baby having bleed to death becuase I didn't take the time to go get her wings clipped. . . any ideas on this?

She has a large Calafornia Cage! Its not that she has no room.<br><br>Post edited by: Cortneypenn, at: 2007/04/21 07:18

[Dave007]

That's simple. Been clipping since she was an extremely young bird?? She simply nerver learned how to fly which takes about 8 mts. That amount of natural learning also allows a parrot to build up extremely strong breast and wing feathers, coordination, equilibrium, the ability to know what proper vertical and horozontal flight is all about. Wild animals aren't mean't to be altered just to fit into a person's scheme of things. A parrot is a wild animal from the day it's born to the day it dies. That can be easily verified. People just don't wanna believe that fact.

 

Broken blood feather----if a flight feather is naturally 7 inches long and the blood in that feather extends from the body in that feather out about 3 inches and clipping 2 inches from the tip of that feather, how much closer is the blood located near the clipped wing tip. Do the math. Much easier to start that blood flowing out of the wing since it has such a short distance to travel.<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/04/21 18:12

[Granpooba]

Let me finalize my feelings and thoughts on this subject. Being a retired Corporate Pilot I can only relate to one hell of a lot of training and flying is summed up as " HOURS UPON HOURS OF BOREDOM, SHATTERED BY SECONDS OF SHEAR TERROR ". And by this I mean, you can train your birdies all you want, to navigate here to navigate there. And that may work for you and your birds for years. BUT !! Its only going to take a split second for something, anything to startle your bird and cause it to fly away and possibly fly into something or hit something and either cause a serious injury to itself or even possibly death.

 

I will continue to clip my birdies wings. And keep them from harm and in my life.

 

End of subject for me !

 

Sincerely,

Dave

[shanlung]

We should all just relax and step back.

 

We have one thing in common whichever approach that we take. We all love our birds.

 

No one must ever feel compelled to take one path over the other because of pressure exerted one way or other.

 

Each situation can be so different that no single one way is the way for all.

 

We all should know clearly all alternatives, the benefits and the risks , and then decide on what you wish to do without having to defend or give evil eye to other ways.

 

Shanlung

[TheGreyMiester]

shanlung wrote:

We should all just relax and step back.

 

We have one thing in common whichever approach that we take. We all love our birds.

 

No one must ever feel compelled to take one path over the other because of pressure exerted one way or other.

 

Each situation can be so different that no single one way is the way for all.

 

We all should know clearly all alternatives, the benefits and the risks , and then decide on what you wish to do without having to defend or give evil eye to other ways.

 

Shanlung

 

I agree 100%

[Rambo]

please get clipped soon!! the first 3 flights feathers, do not clip, and watch out for the bloodvein wing, do not cut, make sure cut both wings below the flight feathers, only three or four feathers to cut!! rambo flew away and came back after 13 hours!!! no i cut his wings every 3 to 4 months!!!

[Rambo]

getting one wing clipped with trow the bird off balance if he does fly and possibly get hurt bad!!! trust me, cutting both wings below the flight feathers (which are the long ones at the end) they can still fly about 4 feet, not to enough to escape forever!!!

[Guest]

shanlung wrote:

We should all just relax and step back.

 

We have one thing in common whichever approach that we take. We all love our birds.

 

No one must ever feel compelled to take one path over the other because of pressure exerted one way or other.

 

Each situation can be so different that no single one way is the way for all.

 

We all should know clearly all alternatives, the benefits and the risks , and then decide on what you wish to do without having to defend or give evil eye to other ways.

 

Shanlung

 

 

 

We have one thing in common whichever approach that we take. We all love our birds.

 

Right. That alone should create a basis for understanding

[shanlung]

I should hold my peace.

 

And perhaps this letter should not be written as I written much earlier.

 

But it seemed to me that those earlier letters I wrote warning that clipping wings do not necessary meant birds will not then be able to fly away were totally disregarded.

 

For those who stumbled onto here without reading earlier letters, I will repost elements from two letters written earlier.

 

Clipping of wings probably lead to loss of even more birds than knowing how to live with flighted birds.

 

People clip wings thinking that their bird will not fly away.

 

I honestly have nothing against the way people chose to keep their flock. No one should allow others to pressure them one way or other into any prescribed way. They and only they alone must decide.

 

But they should know as much as they can , not relying on the word of anyone alone, less of all, not from me.

 

But to think that clipping of wings will meant bird will be safe is so unsafe that that is frightening to me.

 

Trimming wings is about the worse measure to try to stop birds from flying away.

 

In fright and with wind gust, clipped birds will , and can fly away.

 

By trimming feathers, you lull yourself into a false state of mind that all is safe. Then when the clipped bird fly away in fright up a tree, the very lack of those clipped feathers meant that bird cannot fly down to you again.

 

Those who live with flighted birds will know that flying down is one of the hardest act EVEN WITH ALL FEATHERS INTACT. Successful flying down from high points require much more skills than flying up in fright.

 

If you think clipping prevent unwanted escapes then read extracts below

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

"

lost cockatiel 'Tory'

Lost cockatiel. Grey/yellowish pearl. Banded 03. ay come to 'Tory Bird'. Poor flier due to wing clipping. Email: dbrueck685@aol.com. White Lake, MI.

 

Our bird was lost on 11-23-03 in the area of St. Petersburg, Fl. In the region of OLD NORTHEAST. We are heart broken over it, any info that is given will be greatly helpful, wings are clipped and can't fly There is a reward out for the return of the bird , under one year old. Email: ywwalker@mypetshop.com. St Petersburg, FL.

 

Blue & Gold Macaw, Lost in Pembroke Pines, Fl Distinctive Forth black Line Under Eyes. Still Being Handfed. Wings Were Clipped First two Wing feathers Still On. Lost On Sept. 21. Reward If Found. Email: mattshaninfl@aol.com. Pembroke Pines, FL.

 

 

My daughter and I are so sad because my husband went outside on

Saturday Feb. 24th at 3 o'clock and he had our little Mustached Parakeet. It's a female, and she was scared about the noise that my husband did with the trashcan, so she flew away.

 

We try to find her, we gave to the people some flyers and we put some

of them on the mail boxes, we look around our home where we thought that she can stay but anything happened. Our Parakeet Vet told us that she can't fly long distances because she has just 3 feathers on each side, she is missing 4 on each side.

 

She was living inside the house in a warm weather and now outside is

cold, the Vet thinks that she can survive outside but I don't know what we

can do. We are missing her a lot. Her head is light gray, she has

salmon-colored half breast, some of her tail feathers are turquoise, and some yellow on her wing feathers. We are living in Gilbert, Arizona.

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

And this extract of letter to MrSpock

 

 

In what Dave said , that is true in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we live in the real world.

But most people then went on to extrapolate that then, their bird will never be able to fly away. That is where I draw that line.

 

So after you got that 'perfect clip' and your parrot then fly about 8 feet and not gaining height. But again, have that clip been tested under worse case condition? Such as a sudden blast of air horn , or a strange hat thrust in front to see if that parrot cannot gain height in a spook situation?

 

Can you bear to do a sudden spook, or allow others to do that to your parrot? To see if that clipped wings hold good in spook conditions? And with Murphy at your elbows, how about throwing in that gust of wind at the same time?

 

Can you ever guarantee such conditions will never ever occur to you?

 

People had thought so. Their parrot paid heavier price than they did.

Your choice again to see if you can beat those odds.

 

 

With that, I will not add anymore to this thread as I am already repeating myself.

 

 

Shanlung

[Karla]

okay well im a new bird owner and i've been reading this posts on wing clipping and i personaly think that if you think it is the right thing to do and it will be safer for your bird then go ahead and do it.

 

Another thing is that people are saying that birds are supposed to fly... right but now its your pet.....birds aren't supposed to be kept in cages either!?

[dblhelix]

Wing clipping is a subject I have some thoughts about, as it is a constant source of debate. There is no doubt that clipping one wing is generally considered far worse than a balanced clip to both wings. Just clipping one wing does not allow the bird controlled flight. Imagine taking part of one wing off an airplane, it does not work. If you are going to handicap the bird (eg cliP) do it responsibly to minimize the negatives of the clip. Bobby Brinker has some really good information on wing clipping, the best ways to do it and the advantages of allowing a bird to fully fledge.

 

Personally I will keep my bird flighted although Kip was clipped when I bought her. The breeder only allowed her 1, One, thats right ONE flight before clipping...So I plan to refledge her and then keep her flighted after the first molt. This is absolutely a personal choice that must be made by each owner in consideration of living situations etc. There are pros and cons to both.

 

However, it stands to reason that birds have evolved over thousands of years to fly. Taking away this natural instinct and amazing ability must have some negative effects on the animal. There is more and more scientific data that supports the value of at least allowing birds to fully fledge. It affects their balance and mental development on a neurological level that impacts them for their entire life. Their urge to fledge as youngsters is so strong they instinctively reduce eating and drop weight in preparation for learning to fly. There is a lot of data now showing that birds who never master "controlled flight" are clumsy, more likely to be insecure and feather pickers. In nature Greys are not clumsy at all, on the contrary they are beautiful, graceful animals. It makes sense that the unnatural clipping could make the bird distrust their very own feathers and pick at them since they cannot trust their own bodies to do what they are meant to do. This can lead to all kinds of emotional problems for the animal. In addition the affects on their cardiovascular system is noteworthy. Their entire heart/lung system is evolved to provide the extraordinary circulation and oxygen necessary for all the energy flying uses. Birds that do not fly have a higher incidence of health problems in life just like people who do not exercise have heart problems, high cholesterol etc.

 

My grandmothers red lored amazon, in the family now for over 36 years, is fully flighted. My cockatiel and budgie both were fully flighted and lived relatively long healthy lives (None of the 3 aforementioned birds went the vet even ONCE!!!) No doubt living with a flighted bird can be very challenging and requires careful assessment to take on that risk. My budgie never got out (if he would he would have probably been unrecoverable). Our Amazon has accidentally gotten out no more than 5 times in 36 years and fortunately each time we were able to recover him, but it is really scary.

 

All that being said, for me the decision is simple when considering all the factors...keep them flighted. Its an amazing thing to see them fly, hover, maneuver. You can tell they were born to do it and love doing it. To me, part of owning a bird is living with and appreciating the amazing gift and beauty of flight.<br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2007/05/16 09:04

[CeasarsDad]

Very well thought out response.. Thanks for adding this to the debate..

[judygram]

I personally do clip the wings but it is important to let them learn to fly before it is done the first time. They have to learn how to land before wings are clipped. I may consider letting them grow out and see how things go.

This was some very good discussion.

[shanlung]

 

In view of the recent thread on free flying, I adding this note to bring this old thread up again

[Tari]

I thought about not clipping this time But yesterday Que hurt herself fling so I well be clipping. My choice I want my birds to be safe.

[Talon]

Thanks, Shanlung. It is always nice to revisit older threads. Lots of good information on them.