Where Do I Go From Here?

[JeffNOK]

I've had Gracie (8 month old hand fed CAG) now for just under four months. I must say she is an absolute joy and quite easy to co-habitate with. I know that we have bonded because she trusts me and seems very happy to see me and interact with me--though at a comfortable distance. When I leave the room she calls to me and when I leave the house she really cries. We spend a lot of time "chatting" with each other, but she still won't allow scritches or pets or touches beyond "nose-to beak"--hands are off limits except for step ups in and out of the cage or moving to a perch or playstand--even then she prefers my wrist (she is fully flighted, but still allows me to transport her). She spends most of her time playing independently in and around her cage. She won't hang out with me on the couch or sit on my hand or shoulder for any length of time. She doesn't bite or seem to fear me in any way. So far I've been very laid back with her. I don't push her, and the minute she seems uncomfortable with anything I step back. The thing is, I want to bond more with her, but I don't want to force myself on her. Should I just keep doing as I'm doing, or are there ways I can slowly make her more open to touch and closer interaction. I'm not discouraged, and if this is just her personality, I'm ok with that, but I can't help but think we can get closer and she and I would both be happier for it. Any thoughts?

[Kimijean]

Four months is not very long. I "adopted" a 3 yr old Dusky Pionus about five months ago and just recently I've been seeing some change in her. Just a bit more relaxed and confident. I think you should just keep doing what you've been doing and in time she will open up more. Others might have some things you can add to what you're doing to help things along. )

 

Kim

[Guest XxExoticPsychExX]

It sounds like you're doing a really good job. Don't forget that positive reinforcement works! Have you tried handing her treats as opposed to putting it in a food bowl? That'll help with getting her to trust you and your hands. Also, if she's ok with you transporting her, try bringing a T-stand or some table top stand that she can perch and chill on when you go into separate rooms. She may not want to be on the couch right now, but once she feels safe and comfortable around such a big piece of furniture she'll let you know when she wants to join you.

 

Another thing you could do is put her favorite treats and toys or something familiar (besides you) on the couch. That might entice her to go on it as well.

 

Solomon's 15 years old and I've had him since last August. He needed to not only trust me, but also get used to all these new things before he eventually wanted to go on the couch or my bed. Now, ALL he wants to do is be on my bed! Sometimes there are too many new stimuli all at once and it's like sensory overload for them. Try different approaches if one really isn't working and don't give up. Just take it nice and slow and keep up the good work

[Doug]

Ellie is most responsive to touch just before bedtime.

 

When she's tired, she likes me to put my hand over her head while she sits on my stomach or a table.

 

Ellie doesn't always ASK for scratches and sometimes she makes a little squawk when my hand gets close to her head. But I persist just to show her that I don't mean harm. Usually she acquiesces and enjoys it. If she still seems upset, I'll pull back my hand and talk to her soothingly.

 

Gracie is very young, so it should be easy to get her to accept more contact.

[judygram]

Some greys do not like a lot of hands on interaction, maybe some head or neck scratching is about all they will allow and if that is the way she wants it then you have to respect her wishes also you have not had Gracie a long time and it does take a while but be prepared to accept her as she is.

[Doug]

Some greys do not like a lot of hands on interaction, maybe some head or neck scratching is about all they will allow and if that is the way she wants it then you have to respect her wishes also you have not had Gracie a long time and it does take a while but be prepared to accept her as she is.

 

Since Jeff got Gracie at the age of 4 months (and she is now 8 months), it should've been very easy to get her to accept handling. I think that he was a bit too cautious.

 

Maybe I'm too pushy but I am constantly touching Ellie when she is with me - lightly grabbing her beak, rubbing her toes, putting my hand over her back. I think this helps develop acceptance in a situation where I have to hold her (to protect her or something).

[JeffNOK]

It seems like most people here with a similar issue are those with rescues rather than hand fed babies. I must say that Gracie is not typical. She has been unusually independent for a young hand fed grey. When I visited Gracie (nearly every day) for two months at the breeders before bringing her home, there were two other grey babies there the same age. Both of them flew to people and happily sat there for pets and cuddles. Gracie did not. She would step up to be let out of her cage, but that was it. I know that most baby greys will allow pets and scritches, but Gracie is just different somehow. I don't know if I'm being overly cautious or not. I'm not afraid of her or a bite. I do feed her treats by hand, and she will step up happily, but no touching anywhere except her beak (by nose or lips and occassionally finger). If I try to touch her head or neck, she immediately walks away. I don't want to give the impression that she is unfriendly. She loves me. She watches every move I make and gets my attention in very outgoing comical ways. Whenever I'm home I spend every minute with her in the same room, and she is out of her cage. I only leave the room for minutes at a time to run to the bathroom or get changed or something. She did stay with her parents for nine weeks prior to being hand fed rather than the typical three or four weeks. I have read that this makes them bond differently with people. They tend to be quite stable in personality, but have a greater sense of themselves as birds and not humans--so they don't see us as "mates" but as friends as they mature. I am going to try to touch her more, but if she doesn't want it--I'm not going to be too persistent. I really just want her to be happy.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

I agree with Doug. Its ABSOLUTELY time for JEFFNOK to push the relationship with Gracie. If Gracie has the trust, and knows how to stepup, its time to do training away from the cage. Thats where bonding happens. Remember, she doesn't know any better! She's not a rescue, has no issues, so it is time to train! Always, away from the cage. Have her stepup, go to your favorite room and bond! Show her your home. Don't be afraid to be a parent, worrying she might chew her feathers, or not love you. You are the parent, she is the child. Treat her as such! Make her life to be full of drama, books and music! If you have a party, introduce her to people, without expecting her to bond with them, but to say Hi!

I had all these expectations of Sophie. I socialized her. I expected her to love my children, dogs and other birds. She's been there for along time. It was what I expected of her, and she delivered. Nancy

[JeffNOK]

I feel so confused and conflicted. I'm a complete newbie with birds altogether let alone greys. I read so much and get such different information. I really don't know what is best. One school of thought suggests allowing the grey to lead the way--"don't push--don't make them do anything they don't want to do unless it's an issue of safety". Another school of thought suggests taking a parent role and to guide and train even if they resist and seem unhappy or uncomfortable initially. I'm willing to do anything if it is right for her. It's just that I don't know what that is. When I first got Gracie I took her places in her Pak-o-bird. She didn't like that. She started to resist me and seemed to distrust me when I pushed the issue. I was told by people on the forum that I was being too dominating and I should step back and let her communicate when she was comfortable. So, I have adopted the strategy of respecting her wishes and letting her let me know what she wants and needs. Our relationship is very good and she is very happy. If you saw her you would see a very contented bird. I personally would like more affection. As things stand now, she does not want to be touched. She makes that very clear. I make attempts, and she lets me know that she doesn't want it. She loves for me to sit with her next to her cage and talk and sing and whistle to her, but when I attempt to touch her she walks away. Sometimes I will have her step up and I will walk her to places in my condo where she is not as familiar. Sometimes she stays on me for a minute or two and sometimes she flies back to her cage immediately. She still really enjoys hand feeding formula, and once a day I hand feed her. Tonight I decided to have her step up and receive the formula while standing on my hand. Initially she took the formula from my hand, but she kept looking back to her cage. She didn't like sitting on my hand. She wanted to take the formula from the top of her cage. She eventually flew back to her cage. After that I offered her my hand--she walked away. She didn't like it. So far I haven't taken her to my bedroom--the only room aside from the bathroom where she hasn't been. If I take her there, what should I do? Kins mentioned training--but training for what exactly? Training to let me touch her? If I do that, she will just run away from me or fly off. Do I then chase her and make her submit to my touch? I feel somehow wrong in forcing affection. I just know that if I try to do that she will feel scared and upset. Now, if that is only temporary and it leads to a good result then I am willing to take her out of her comfort zone. But if it only sets us back--causes her to lose trust and makes her unhappy--then I don't want to do it. As far as socializing her--I think I am doing a good job. I have visitors over all the time. I even have my students over from time to time and conduct class in my condo. She likes it. She chirps and whistles and plays and even steps up on some of the students. She is not a phobic fearful or shy grey. She just doesn't like to be touched. I don't want to give the impression that I am some meek mild pushover that is afraid to assert himself. I am not. I have trained dogs and have been the unquestioned pack leader. It works with dogs, and I have no qualms about it. But with greys I get such mixed messages about the approach that I feel hamstrung because I get advice that goes in opposite directions. I want to thank you all for your advice. As someone who really knows nothing, I want to hear all opinions. Really--you are speaking from your hearts and personal experience, and I value that very much. I just don't know what to do, whose advice to take, or what is best for Gracie-- which is my ultimate concern. I love her with all my heart.

Edited April 4, 2012 by JeffNOK

[chezron]

Touching and heartfelt description Jeff. thanks. I am not sure what to tell you. Maybe it is a individual choice and Gracie really does not want to be touched. Perhaps work a little on expanding her comfort zone in small ways. My guy has always loved being stroked and handled. He absolutely requires it. My amazon, on the other hand, is timid and doesn't like much touching, yet I know he loves me and that is enough. I hope you get your answer from some other folks. I think, however, your attitude and heart are in the right place, and if change can occur it will. Perhaps visualizing Gracie enjoying petting will help to manifest it.

[Jayd]

Hi, Conure males kick there baby out as soon as they fledge, A Amazon leaves the nest at around 6mo's, a Grey is another story. In the wild, A Grey stays in the nest, learning family routines, and doesn't leave the nest till around a year or so. For the next 3 years or so, they stay within the family group, helping out while maturing. At around 4 years of age, they start looking for a mate and settling down, their eyes and tail feathers have changed to there final color denoting there maturity.

There's some myths associated with hand feeding, yes it helps with socializing and trust issues, here in is where part of the problem might lie. To bond is to form a love/companion relationship. A fledge Grey should not have bonded with his breeder/handler, one of the hardest things for a breeder is to get to attached to his young one's that are to be sold, the same goes for the baby's in question.

If your baby was four month old when you got her, she had already fledged, during the time after her fledging, the breeder/handler probably took care of feeding and making sure she was okay. In the case of your fid, she might have went on developing her own independence since she had no group to learn from, she sounds as if she is a very strong willed Grey, a little on the introverted side, some what like a strong orphaned child would be, knowing right from wrong but having nothing to compare it to.

How to possibly handle this is to take time, you have a Grey who is old for her age, treat her as such. You must start over, not to gain her trust, but to socialize her, show her she is not alone and can share and not only recive love but give it. Find a spot, pull up a chair and talk to her, don't push 'touch' on her, hand her treats and touch the tip of her beak each time you give her one.[no beak touching the first few time.] Let her set the pace, you must be patience, to rush could push her away. Don't under any circumstances let her see if your discouraged or upset.

Yes, to treat her as a older re-home/rescue is what you have to do. Do to the fact your baby was sold a long time after fledging I consider this what I call "Unintentional Abuse" from the breeder. I feel she will be well acclimatized to you by the time she is a year old. Please remember and don't be discouraged, a Grey chooses who they bond with.

Thank Jayd

Edited April 4, 2012 by Jayd
corrected spelling

[Doug]

Jay,

 

I'm a little confused by this. I thought that four months was pretty standard. (I got Ellie at 3.5 months.)

 

Jeff said that the other two greys at the breeder (same age as Gracie) were more outgoing. I would assume that they went through the same life experiences (up to that point) as Gracie.

[JeffNOK]

As far as the other two birds, I know they came from different parents, and one was pulled at 4 weeks because it had a foot injury. It's all a learning process. I'm just going to make a huge effort more quality time with Gracie and gradually offer her more touch and affection and see how it goes.

[Jayd]

Jay,

 

I'm a little confused by this. I thought that four months was pretty standard. (I got Ellie at 3.5 months.)

 

Jeff said that the other two greys at the breeder (same age as Gracie) were more outgoing. I would assume that they went through the same life experiences (up to that point) as Gracie.

Hi Doug,

Sorry, in our area they start selling Grey at around 9 weeks, as soon as they're eating on their own, Some sellers clip their wings at 8 to 9 weeks olod claiming if they clip them at that age they'll never miss them.[They never fly] Some sellers sell the Greys while there still hand feeding saying it helps to bond with the new owner...

Think of a Grey as more of a human child than as a bird, each one independent, not a stereotype. A Grey is a animal that learns by obseriving. note, it will be around 200,000 years before a parrot will be domestacated like our dogs and cats. Aexample of how a Grey thinks is: If a Amazon parrot falls, he gets up says "oh well" and fly's away. A Grey, sits there for a while and says to himself "Do I really want to do that? what if I fall?.

Cags come from a large area in Africa, the come in diffrant colors of gray, and vary in size, so it's very easy for a group of Greys who are raised together to be completely different...

Thanks

Jayd

[Jayd]

Please be careful with any game playing with a Grey, "They think so there fore they are!" Here"s a example, put the cage by a couch or a soft back chair, sit there and talk to your baby, a good treat is "Pine nuts" [limit how many you give] One day she'll climb down to see whats going on, this can take a long time, just be patience...Thanks Jay

Visit the training room...

[Jayd]

My bad....Playing mind games and playing finger, toy games or Peek-A-Boo are two different things. There is a fine line between teasing and playing. Let me give an example: to say "Open your mouth, here comes a choo-choo train" is different than eating something in front of your child that they may or may not like and saying "Oh it is so good" and not sharing or offering anything. Now remember, with a Grey's mentality, they are just liable to say "If you like it so much, you eat it!" A lot of people play "If" games with Greys to the point that that is the only way to communicate with them. (If you give me a kiss, I will give you a treat) When you raise a baby Grey, either from a hatchling or a four-month old, you do what is called "abundant feeding". You put way more food at all times in the Fids' cage than they will ever eat. The reason for this is that if a Grey does not have access to an abundant amount of food, they will develop a fear of never having enough to eat! This is the same as "If" games, mind games and withholding games. Another example is talking and communicating with your Grey. Talk to them as you would wish them to talk to you. Very little baby talk...a Grey is very advanced and picks up and retains every word and phrase that is used to communicate with them. If you want them to call you Dad, don't use the word Papa. When they get older, you can introduce new words meaning the same thing in order to further their vocabulary.

Thanks,

Jayd

[Jayd]

Is her Wings Clipped? What color is her eyes?

Edited April 5, 2012 by Jayd
corrected

[Jayd]

At this point in time the only place you should touch her is her Head, Beak and Toes.

[JeffNOK]

Jayd, her wings are not clipped. She can fly freely whenever she wants. She is so cute when I am preparing her vegetables. She gets really excited and she buzzes the kitchen door two or three times in anticipation of her green beans. corn, boccoli, and carrots. Her eyes are still dark. She is beginning to get a light silver ring around her pupils that can be seen in bright light. From a distance her eyes look black. As far as playing with her--I have stopped using her toys in common games. She is super possessive of HER toys. She actually lunges in my direction when I touch her toys. She doesn't try to bite me--its a bluff--but she gets all ruffled up and strikes at the toy just an inch or so from my fingers. She could nail me if she wanted to, but she doesn't. I'm not sure if it's a game to her or if she is warning me off. She looks like she means business, so I have just stopped touching her toys unless I am rotating old toys out and new ones in. Whenever I say "Gracie, where's your toy?" she immediately goes to one of her toys, ruffles up, and grabs at it with a dramatic bravado as if to say--"Yes it is MY toy and don't you forget it!" Tonight I took a few pillows and reclined next to her cage for a few hours. She seemed to like my close proximity. We whistled and chirped and serenaded each other. I had a few pine nuts--a new treat--and she occassionally climbed down on her cage to allow me to feed them to her. I touched her beak as I gave the nuts. She didn't seem to mind. For some reason, she doesn't mind me touching her beak. She steps up willingly, but I'm not sure she'd be cool with me touching her feet. The head is still off limits except occassionally with my nose. I must look so silly petting my bird with my nose, but that is the part of my body she seems to feel the least threatened by. She has never nipped at my nose, although sometimes she tries to lick it--ugh strange sensation! I had my parents' dog visit yesterday. He is a little Toy Fox Terrier (10 lbs max). I am trying to acclimate her to family and pets because I plan to have her visit my parents with me, and if I have to go out of town she would be staying with them. She was curious about him, but not bothered. He barked at her twice (and was immediately put under control). After an hour Gracie and the dog were only mildly curious about each other. I think they will be fine under supervision. I must say it was really nice when the dog hopped up on the couch and gave me a snuggle. Dogs are such love lumps--Gracie is a harder nut to crack.

Edited April 5, 2012 by JeffNOK

[Jayd]

The reasons I asked the questions I did, is because I feel your baby is older the you were told. You are doing everything Greyt!!! Stick with the pine nuts as her "Special" treat. Visit a health food market and get some "Juniper berry's". Your on the right track..Smile, your doing Greyt!!!!!

[JeffNOK]

I understand your question about the eyes and age, but I'm quite certain she was 8 months old March 23rd. I have a certificate with her hatch date and her band number. My breeder is a very reputable vet in my town and is well known to all the parrot people here. The breeder does have a few birds that she boards as rescues and she is up front about their ages and history. I was in contact with the breeder when Gracie was hatched and DNA'd female a few weeks later. I met Gracie at nine weeks when she left her parents and hadn't fledged yet. . I was at the breeder the day of her first flight. . She really is still a baby even though she has some unique characteristics.

Edited April 5, 2012 by JeffNOK

[Jayd]

I understand your question about the eyes and age, but I'm quite certain she will be 8 months old April 23rd. I have a certificate with her hatch date and her band number. My breeder is a very reputable vet in my town and is well known to all the parrot people here. She does have a few birds that she boards as rescues and she is up front about their ages and history. I was in contact with the breeder when Gracie was hatched and DNA'd female a few weeks later. I met her at nine weeks when she left her parents and hadn't fledged yet. I was at the breeder the day of her first flight. She really is still a baby even though she has some unique characteristics.

 

Sorry, didn't mean anything bad. Jayd

[JeffNOK]

Jayd, I certainly didn't think you meant anything bad. You have been nothing but helpful. Sadly my one year of law school prior to dropping out and becoming a teacher has led me to present too much information sometimes. I wasn't trying to overstate a point. I can understand why you would have thought that she might be older. Sadly misleading information from breeders is not uncommon, so I didn't mind the question at all. I'm glad I was there all along the way and that her eyes are just beginning to turn a bit silver/grey because otherwise I might have doubts myself. But based on all the evidence I do feel confident in her age. Again, sorry if I seemed snippy and I really appreciate all your advice.

Edited April 5, 2012 by JeffNOK

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

I know, what to tell you. It was something I did for all my birds. The entire site, is about to come swooping down on me. I'm willing to do this, as I LOVE the relationship and commitment, you have, with Gracie. I believe, Gracie needs to be trimmed. Find a trimmer, that is fantastic! I did. Trimming, doesn't mean clipped. While trying to train and educate, they need to be able to fly, just so. They can't fly away with training. As they become more understanding with training, away from cage, their feathers grow each time. As they understand what you expect, and want to deliver, they fly more and more each time.

Initially, I believe birds need to learn to fly as babies, or rescues. Develop chest muscles. After that, I believe in trimming birds, so they can focus on learning. I know many disagree with me. Thats okay with me. It has worked for my entire flock, and they now all fly perfectly.

It is just as important to find a vet, as well as a bird trimmer, that can work with you. My birds have not had to see a vet often. They have seen my bird trimmer, TONS! Nancy

[Jayd]

I know, what to tell you. It was something I did for all my birds. The entire site, is about to come swooping down on me. I'm willing to do this, as I LOVE the relationship and commitment, you have, with Gracie. I believe, Gracie needs to be trimmed. Find a trimmer, that is fantastic! I did. Trimming, doesn't mean clipped. While trying to train and educate, they need to be able to fly, just so. They can't fly away with training. As they become more understanding with training, away from cage, their feathers grow each time. As they understand what you expect, and want to deliver, they fly more and more each time.

Initially, I believe birds need to learn to fly as babies, or rescues. Develop chest muscles. After that, I believe in trimming birds, so they can focus on learning. I know many disagree with me. Thats okay with me. It has worked for my entire flock, and they now all fly perfectly.It is just as important to find a vet, as well as a bird trimmer, that can work with you. My birds have not had to see a vet often. They have seen my bird trimmer, TONS! Ncy

 

Don't do it, In 37yrs I've seen to many Grey turned into perch potatoes, with blank stares..For those who don't know it, it will be another 200,000 years before a parrot becomes a domesticated animal like our beloved dogs and cat! Think about it! A parrot has "More" wild instincts then most people realize...Owning a Grey mean you must change for them, not change them for you! There's no such thing as a "Trimming" any one who clips a bird deeper then safe down ward flight is wrong. When a bird is Trimed[clipped], thew don't only lose lift, but they lose the abilty to control foward flight, not being able to stop foward flight and crashing or tumbling, possiable injuring themselves. A clipped bird can still fly, a gust of wind can lift a clipped bird into the air, combined with their combined flapping can carry them a long way, usually ending in a dangerous crash... Another example: Your fid is on top of his cage, their startled, they jump flapping and fall, with no spontaneous lift the stall and can't recover, injuring them selves...Make a paper glider, toss it, it lands right side up, now clip the back half of the wings off, toss it, see what happens. To Parront a Grey is to live by their needs, not ours.......Jay