shanlung Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I was just asking a question on how the bird was able to fly with his wings being being clipped. The reason is because i am on the fence on getting my CAG clipped. I love watching her fly round the house but do not want to see her fly out the door. I was not bringing up or wanting to start a discussion on the clipped/unclipped debate in this thread. :mad::mad: :mad: I thought I copy into here a posting I did elsewhere in a poll on whether to clip or not clip aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa This is a most interesting thread. From the polls, the majority of the birdies are kept flighted. As also seen in similar polls in other birdie forums. Below is a letter I wrote in another forum just a few days ago which I think has its place in this thread, especially in the poll which started this thread. That was for a birdie Echo who flew away, and with a happy ending of being rescued. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa The strange part is that the BULK of escaping birdies were birdies with clipped wings , not fully flighted birdies. Even more strange is that more birdies are kept fully flighted now, at least from the polls I seen. Surely, shouldn't it be the other way? That more birdies that are fully flighted be lost instead of birdies that are clipped forming the bulk of lost birdies? It is not the scissors that prevent unwanted escapees. More often than not, that lead to undeserved complacency. Consider how my saga with Riamfada started. She was clipped, and assymetrically clipped on just one wing. A clipping designed to cause imbalance to birdie and about the worse of clipping. She flew away and landed in a garden with very high walls around it to be rescued by a lady. She looked and asked around the entire neighbourhood. She was a very determined lady walking about the neighbourhood to find whose grey it was. So it was likely Riamfada flew into her garden from a much further place. She then gave her to my care. So not only Riam flew far away with clipped wings, but flew high enough to get over a high wall. I guess as Riam was a wild caught, she retained enough of her flying knowledge to overcome those clipping done on her. And as birdies have clipped wings, that would make it almost impossible for them to fly down. Flying down is a lot lot lot more difficult than flying up. And as clipped birds probably had never been allowed to fly at all, they do not know how to turn and fly in any controlled way by them. Flying up is about all they can do. That is the reality. Not what most folks love to think. But strangely, folks who clipped birdies and never known of them flying seemed to know so much more about flighted birdies than I do. And so fond of asking one and all to reach for those scissors to crunch off those feathers on the wings. Their one infallible solution to any and all problems. It is ok for folks. But its the lost birdies that will pay the price. What chance have they got? Never knowing how to fly with control? Barely enough feathers to fly and no feathers for flight control? Clipped birds lost outdoors will in almost all likelihood escaped with a death warrant tied to their clipped wings. Do remember that whenever you reached for that scissors. If Echo was clipped, instead of having all her feathers, Echo would not have been back and likely to have died instead. Flighted birds, and birds knowing flight, lost outdoors will survive a lot better than birds clipped. It is the knowledge and care and attention to details that keep your birdie safe with you. Nothing else. Think about it. Go and clip and hope you beat the odds. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa and a follow up letter from me which hopefully can help those with escaped birdies. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Needless to say, I am so happy you got Echo back! I will not, and never will, wish even the worse villian on Earth be him Hitler or Osama or my ex mother in law , that they lost a birdie, especially a grey. The pain and anguish is so incredible and impossible to bear that it defied words and description. Now that you got Echo back, can you ever recall the pain and depth of despair that you had when you first saw Echo winging off? Its just not possible now. That pain was too great and utterly impossible for you to replicate in your heart now with Echo's return. As for Echo on top of tree and not flying down to you, I believe that you missed what I wrote on getting a lost birdie back. If you had, you might have saved yourself quite a bit of pain and gotten Echo back earlier. It is too long and too detailed to copy and paste here. You should read it, as you never know if you ever need it again. After all, Murphy is everywhere. Search & recovery of your lost birdie shanlung: Angkor Wat & stuff// Wife to say hi to Domdom and Riamfada// Search & recovery of your lost birdie aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Mike, the Daddie of Echo, agreed if he read that , and the 45 degree rule, he probably would have gotten Echo back a lot earlier instead of begging Echo directly under him on the branch. But I do understand folks with a birdie up on a tree find it more gratifying to grovel and beg directly under the birdie to fly back, not realising that only a birdie highly trained and experienced in flight can do a flight directly downwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CathyJr Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Very good Advise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Welcome Shanlung, I agree with you and your words of wisdom. My birdies are all flighted and it is my worst fear that they will decide to take a journey around the neighborhood. They would be so delighted to be outside flying around they wouldn't even think about me until they landed somewhere and wanted their supper. "Where is mommy and my dinner and why doesn't she come get me, I'm so cold and hungry!" But my babies remain flighted because the joy of watching them fly and the apparent delight in their happy freedom is breathtaking. Nothing more beautiful than the sound of their flapping wings as they come looking for me. I do have my three microchipped so they can be returned to me if necessary. And it is my understanding that here in the States it is a crime if a micro-chipped animal is not returned and any vet will read an animal for a microchip free of charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emlee Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Thank You Shanlung for sharing that. It just might haved saved some birds and their owners horrible tradgity. I know I learned something new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwen Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 ABSOLUTELY !!!!! Thank you Shanlung & Janet for passing on valuable knowledge for ALL bird owners. I have never clipped and wouldn't want to take away one of the only defenses an innocent bird has. I do understand it is personal preference but please be educated enough to make this type of decision on behalf of your bird...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanlung Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Another posting I did in a couple of forums a short while ago in line with clipping. I also have to add that I am actually very neutral as to clipping or not clipping. I only draw the line against that incredibly silly fantasy that clipping will keep you birdie safe as your birdie will then not fly away. Everything have its pros and cons. Nothing ever is infallible. Weigh and weigh and think and think from all angles. Then you decide, in the context of your life and the environment that you can reasonably provide, at least in the NOW that you are in. Then go and do the best for your birdie and by your birdie, regardless of what anyone else will say. After all, you , having weighed everything that you can, is the person that must decide the best for your situation and circumstances. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I thought I will post another old piece I wrote a few years back. Not to do with total free flight outside. Heck! In what I posted on how to do free flight outside, I hope that put the scare in those that read not to try that at all. Leave that to the slightly and/or greatly deranged idiots like yours truly here. But allowing them to fly at home is a different matter entirely. After all, it is not the flying that birdies get onto birdie911. Especially when the bulk of the birdie flyoffs in birdie 911 have their wings clipped in the first place. Makes me wonder why folks still hope to the belief that clipping of wings solved all their problems when in reality, many more clipped birdies fly away then fully flighted birdies. And as what I said in in the poll Do you have full flight birds, What chance have clipped birds got? Never knowing how to fly with control? Barely enough feathers to fly and no feathers for flight control? Clipped birds lost outdoors will in almost all likelihood escaped with a death warrant tied to their clipped wings. Do remember that whenever you reached for that scissors. And hopefully what I wrote might persuade them to return the gift of flight back to their birdies. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Written in about end March 2007 More thoughts on wing clipping shanlung: More thoughts on wing clipping The extract aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Dave wrote: Proper wing clipping will allow a bird horizontal movement and the ability to glide downward to a floor. The ideal wing clip is one that allows a bird to fly about 8 ft before gliding down. Hi Dave, In an ideal world, what you say above may be right. The other extreme will be extremely severe clipping of wings. When I was in Riyadh and in a parrot shop, this grey jumped off the top of cage about 5 feet from ground. The sound of him hitting down, the spray of blood around him, and the screaming of that poor guy hurt me crazy. I do not wish ever to have another keel bone broken even if not in front of me. People clipped for a few key reasons. 1. They had been conditioned to that because of what they read or were told. This seemed to be peculiarly American. Tinkerbell wings were so nearly clipped by me at the beginning as the books I read all recommended that (all American books) as well as forums in 2002 when I first had Tinkerbell. I was lucky enough to bought a British parrot mag to give me second thoughts. 2. The sight of initial flights, the crashing into walls was extremely frightening and I thought my precious Tink was crazy in trying to fly through walls while I stumbled about chasing her with a pillow to cushion her falls after hitting the wall. Once again, I so nearly reached for that scissors and Tink the flyig grey of Taiwan so nearly did not exist. But that british mag persuaded me to let that continue for a few more days. She then found her flying skills to turn, slow, hover and stopped banging into walls. Folks, this episode is inevitable. Your birds may be natural fliers, but even so, they MUST develop their muscles , flying skills and sense of balance. But at this early stage, their speed will be very slow(even if it appeared fast to you) and chances of harm to them will be there but not that much. You can minimise this by letting them fledge in a small room, with curtains or rope nets around the walls for them to fly to and cling too. Or you can run around like me with a cushion. If you see a human toddler trying to walk and falling down, will you have fear for his/her safety and not ever let him discover balance and walk? Will you have him/her crawl for the rest of their life because you are afraid to see them fall? This is same as your choice for your bird. 3 By clipping wings and thinking thus the clipped bird will never fly away. I need not repeat my earlier postings of clipped birds that flown away. In what Dave said , that is true in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we live in the real world. But most people then went on to extrapolate that then, their bird will never be able to fly away. That is where I draw that line. So after you got that 'perfect clip' and your parrot then fly about 8 feet and not gaining height. But again, have that clip been tested under worse case condition? Such as a sudden blast of air horn , or a strange hat thrust in front to see if that parrot cannot gain height in a spook situation? Can you bear to do a sudden spook, or allow others to do that to your parrot? To see if that clipped wings hold good in spook conditions? And with Murphy at your elbows, how about throwing in that gust of wind at the same time? Can you ever guarantee such conditions will never ever occur to you? People had thought so. Their parrot paid heavier price than they did. Your choice again to see if you can beat those odds. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezron Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 You make some really good points Shanlung! Especially about the poor odds of a bird making it outside, not only crippled by clipping, but also crippled by never having flown before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsjr Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 shanlung, i appreciate your passion on this subject and really didn't expect you or anybody else to start a new thread about wing clipping due to a posting i made in another thread. Your passion is commendable but all is see from your posting on this subject is an opinion based editorial based on anecdotal evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanlung Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 shanlung, i appreciate your passion on this subject and really didn't expect you or anybody else to start a new thread about wing clipping due to a posting i made in another thread. Your passion is commendable but all is see from your posting on this subject is an opinion based editorial based on anecdotal evidence. Any topic brought up whether from outside or within a thread can be a thread. My apologies for mentioning you by name in this thread and that will not happen again, ever. In saying that I gave anecdotal evidence, then what is it that scientifically approved of by you? Do give me the scientific evidence that you have that made what I said to be only anecdotal. After all, as far as I know. folks that kept greys or parrots have only a few or even one parrot. If that made what they say to be anecdotal, then will the words from breeders of parrots with hundreds make what they say even more scientific? And then why not managers of poultry farms who might bred a few hundred thousands of birdies. Will then those managers of poultry farms be guru emeritus with impeccable scientific credentials to expound themselves? Then go to them by all means and ignore all that I say as merely anecdotal and not worthy of your time to read. If folks feel heart and mind is of no place in this modern scientific world, then obviously, my thoughts should be discarded as trying to prove heart and mind scientifcally, I leave that to those inclined on that path. I have seen enough of bird alerts, but I guess that's only anecdotal. People can even write to John Hayward of Parrots Lost and Found Register UK http://www.parrotmag.com/lost-and-found-register and hear his anecdotal views that more clipped birds than flighted birds are on his register. In that forum and that thread I was on in ,Wing-Clipping: a poll, please join in!, which I send my postings here from, that went to 224 postings on 12 pages. After my two postings above, some one decided to go through those 224 postings on their own anecdotal accounts and this was his summary on 8 Dec 2011. Results: Hi guys, I've tallied up the results from the start of the thread, it is fairly rough but the general idea is there. The results are actually quite interesting. Hope everyone agrees with the figures. Number of birds: Clipped: 58 Un-clipped: 255 (some are aviary birds) Injured whilst clipped: 15 (main reason, keel damage and broken legs) Injured whilst un-clipped: 16 (main reason, collision with windows and walls, a few chip pan and fire incidents) Escaped whilst clipped: 2 (1 injured, 1 killed by cat) Escaped whilst un-clipped: 8 (most recovered unharmed) Feather-pluck whilst clipped: 10 Feather-pluck whilst un-clipped: 10 Feather pluck seems to be more due to conditions kept and behavioural problems than clipping. Hope this helps! If any one wishes to try and get better results please feel free. Needless to say, an entity there decided clipping and not clipping gave the same results for feather plucking as she saw either way, 10 plucked giving rational and blessing to her already predetermined desire to clip. Yes, she later went on to say her maths is very good. I guess seeing 10 and 10 and recognising those numbers are identical made her maths to be good. She claimed to be accountant as well. I hoped she used a nick because if I happened to be the boss and see her mathematical skills, she will be doing accounting anywhere but in my company. It seemed those determined to clip will keep doing so based on the maths that they want to use or scientific evidence that they deemed more scientific then mere anecdotal conjectures. I then added. And not to forget, with flighted birdies very much the majority, 911 bird alerts consist largely of clipped birds. As reported in the survey summary, it seemed that flighted birds were recovered unharmed. Which meant that never went to the HELP! MY BIRD FLEW AWAY and consisted largely of clipped birds and likely never recovered . As I said before, clipped birds that flew flew away with a death warrant tied to their clipped wings. And yet, folks with clipped birds who dont know how to fly will keep urging others to clip their birds to prevent birds from flying off when it is their own clipped birds that flew off. I then I said enough on this. I have said before this must remain the choice of the individual. After all, why should we care for the choice of the birds themselves? What say have the birds on this matter? After all, whatever the bird say, that cannot be scientific enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsjr Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) what is it that scientifically approved of by you? Do give me the scientific evidence that you have that made what I said to be only anecdotal. sorry but you are the one making all the claims not me, you trying to appear to be an expert on this matter not me. I am trying to get a firmer grasp of what is best for my bird for her happiness and health. All of your evidence is anecdotal, as in being second-hand accounts of events or hearsay. to answer your question what is "scientifically" proven to me? well i never said that anything needed to be "scientifically" proven. but i will say this. I have a niece who is a senior veterinarian technician at Texas A&M university emergency animal clinic. and i also have a good friend who is a small animal vet who went to Colorado state university vet program. both have told me from THEIR first hand experience that they see far fewer injuries from clipped birds than unclipped birds. that info is not opinion its not second hand knowledge nor is it hearsay. its its direct observance of what comes in through their doors. your own evidence that you posted from your online poll supports this. my point to you is to refrain from giving your opinion as fact when it clearly is not. statements like clipped birds that flew flew away with a death warrant tied to their clipped wings. and folks with clipped birds who dont know how to fly will keep urging others to clip their birds to prevent birds from flying off when it is their own clipped birds that flew off. are prime examples of your opinion only. Number of birds:Clipped: 58 Un-clipped: 255 (some are aviary birds) Injured whilst clipped: 15 (main reason, keel damage and broken legs) Injured whilst un-clipped: 16 (main reason, collision with windows and walls, a few chip pan and fire incidents) Escaped whilst clipped: 2 (1 injured, 1 killed by cat) Escaped whilst un-clipped: 8 (most recovered unharmed) . sorry but a poll on a forum is about as anecdotal as one can get. there are a few questions you did not ask and different scenarios that you did not consider. 1. when a clipped bird escaped how long was it since the bird was clipped? 2. was the clip a radical one to prevent no flight? if so then it was badly 3. was it a 6 month old clip and the owners didn't realize that Polly could fly again. 4.. how did the bird escape? was it because the owners got complaisant and reckless by leaving doors open thinking that their bird could not fly? 5. of the 8 escaped clipped birds how many were recovered and what happened to the ones not recovered? Edited December 12, 2011 by carlsjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 sorry but you are the one making all the claims not me.... Thats odd. You just made a claim based on hearsay !! I know few more expert or respected or experienced parrot keepers than Shanlung. I would certainly trust his judgment. When I first adopted Misty I consulted with several avian veterinary specialists and they all strongly advised that wing clipping was a very very bad idea for the physical, mental and safety of a pet parrot. One told me that the risks to the parrot resulting from clipping far outweigh those from allowing a bird to be fully fledged. Most also had strong feelings against irresponsible pet sellers who sold parrots usually clipped to people who are totally unprepared for what properly keeping a parrot involves. Another told me that he hated having to deal with birds that were clipped for the convenience of the keeper because they felt they were unable to give it a safe home otherwise. Only one vet I spoke to thought that clipping was a good idea and he was not an avian specialist. Mark you this is a perspective from the UK and I know that clipping is still common in the US as are ceiling fans which can be deadly for a flighted bird. To me if you cannot live without a ceiling fan then perhaps you are not really suitable to keep a parrot in security and safely. By the way does Texas A&M university emergency animal clinic have an avian specialist? I could see no reference on their extensive website. Steve n Misty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsjr Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) what claims did i make by hearsay? When I first adopted Misty I consulted with several avian veterinary specialists and they all strongly advised that wing clipping was a very very bad idea for the physical, mental and safety of a pet parrot. what do you want me to say? your vets told you different than what my vet and my friend that is a vet told me. I know few more expert or respected or experienced parrot keepers than Shanlung. honestly i dont see it like that, Sorry shanlung but you called me out by making this thread about a posting i made in other thread that had nothing to do with you. so ill take that to mean its ok to voice my open honest opinion. there are a few people on this forum who know A LOT about greys from behavior interpretation/modification, diets, personalities, human interaction... and give good solid advice. shanlung is not one of them. all i see are long long long blogs that are hard to follow, full of personal opinions, and free flighting parrots that he has hooked up to a fishing line of which he has lost one bird twice and another bird once. sounds pretty irresponsible to me. im curious, shanlung, why did you get kicked off and banned the other parrot forums? By the way does Texas A&M university emergency animal clinic have an avian specialist? I could see no reference on their extensive website. TAMU is a major veterinary studies university so yea they have a few avian/exotic specialist on staff and as professors. http://vetmed.tamu.edu/services/zoological Edited December 12, 2011 by carlsjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) what claims did i make by hearsay? You told us that your niece and a vet friend made a claim about frequency of injuries to unclipped birds versus clipped birds. That is hearsay. It is not your direct experience. You say nothing about the kinds of birds how they were kept or the nature of their injuries. Were either of your sources avian vets? Also bear in mind that a clipped parrot that died of its injuries is unlikely to be seen by a vet. So the statistics that your sources claim may not tell the whole story. It may not be unreasonable to suggest that the kinds of injuries a clipped bird is prone could be quickly fatal. Shanlung's statistics are no less valid and are open to some analysis. What do you want me to say? your vets told you different than what my vet and my friend that is a vet told me. You have every right to your opinion but don't go trashing Shanlung's views. they are based on years of experience and interaction with other parrot keepers. And now you are casting innuendoes against him. Not a good way to make friends. honestly i dont see it like that, Sorry shanlung but you called me out by making this thread about a posting i made in other thread that had nothing to do with you......... This is an open forum. In another thread you asked a pertinent question about clipping but you said you did not want that thread to turn into a clipping debate. As a friendly gesture to you Shanlung gave an opinion as valid as any to try answer your question. He started a new thread. He did not "Call you out" you make it seem that he was challenging you somehow! You don't have to follow his advice but please don't insult him or his experience. well it is a major veterinary studies university so yea they have a few avian/exotic specialist on staff and as professors. http://vetmed.tamu.edu/services/zoological Thanks for the link. I did not burrow down deep enough. Steve n Mistyparrot Edited December 12, 2011 by Mistyparrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Okay guys remember to be respectful and no name calling. A debate is fine as long as it remains informational without personal cutting words. To clip or not to clip is a personal choice something that can vary in each household and according to family structure or safety needs. So keep it nice and respectful, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 In reply to Luvparrots, Surely "Cutting words" in a debate about clipping are in a way oddly appropriate:o Yours in jest Steve n Mistyparrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 You can have a " clipped", bird, that can still fly, with perfect accuracy, as I do. All my birds are clipped, and have been so since birth. We have always practiced flying, in the " bird room". It is their room, meant for training, flying, etc. They can fly with perfect accuracy in the home. They can fly upstairs, find me, if they need me. they can fly into our family room, two rooms away. What they CAN'T do.... is go outside, fly furthur then sixteen feet. After 12 years of working with trimmer, we have got it down pat! It works for us. My birds are happy, proud of their flying abilities. I'm proud of them! There is NO difference between my birds, and birds that are fully flighted. I understand the rational behind having fully flighted birds. Our system works for us, as well as fully flighted birds, works for others. Ultimately, having the bird be happy, is the goal! Don't you all agree? Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Nancy, are you saying that you have had your birds outside and they cannot fly further than 16 ft ? Or is it that you ensure they do not go out? If that is so and they get outside and are spooked you may be shocked how far they can fly. If you are clipping in the belief that if the opportunity arose they could not fly off I fear you are mistaken. As you have made sure your birds can fly properly in the safety of your home I would think their wing muscles are quite well developed so the clip probably has much less effect than you think. It is possibly pointless. I would never suggest you clip them harder. Suffice to say I would never clip Misty. He came to me seven years ago unhappy and clipped but is now very happily fully flighted Steve n Misty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsjr Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) ummm getting medical opinions from a doctor and animal nurse is not hearsay. a vet giving advice on something inside their expertise, like a sick dog, then it would not be hearsay. In a court of law this would be referred to as expert testimony. You told us that your niece and a vet friend made a claim about frequency of injuries to unclipped birds versus clipped birds. That is hearsay. It is not your direct experience. You say nothing about the kinds of birds how they were kept or the nature of their injuries. Were either of your sources avian vets? Also bear in mind that a clipped parrot that died of its injuries is unlikely to be seen by a vet. So the statistics that your sources claim may not tell the whole story. It may not be unreasonable to suggest that the kinds of injuries a clipped bird is prone could be quickly fatal. Shanlung's statistics are no less valid and are open to some analysis. so be it. friends are cool and ive made a few on this board. but i want correct info based upon fact and study, not one based upon groundless speculation or baseless feelings. there are no innuendos at all about what i said. his writings are interesting to read but lack a whole lot of substance. they are a one way opinion piece meaning you either subscribe to his ideology or you are not worth talking to. His stance that a clipped bird has a death sentence hanging over it is a perfect example. You have every right to your opinion but don't go trashing Shanlung's views. they are based on years of experience and interaction with other parrot keepers.And now you are casting innuendoes against him. Not a good way to make friends. making a thread with my name in the title is a direct call out and i will respond with my own opinions. You are right I will not follow his advice, and i will challenge anybody who tries to pass off information that is flat out wrong especially when its dealing with the health of a person or animal. One member on here lost his young grey by feeding him garlic after reading on some loons website that no harm can come from giving a parrot garlic. This is an open forum. In another thread you asked a pertinent question about clipping but you said you did not want that thread to turn into a clipping debate. As a friendly gesture to you Shanlung gave an opinion as valid as any to try answer your question. He started a new thread. He did not "Call you out" you make it seem that he was challenging you somehow! Edited December 13, 2011 by carlsjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chezron Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) You know, someone does not have to be "right", that is not what this forum is about. Please respect everyones right to their opinion. You may not agree with it, but that is why this is a forum for discussion. Bird owners all have their own realities and life experiences. We all agree that we care about our animals, although we may go about it in different ways. Edited December 13, 2011 by chezron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsjr Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) im not the one making a inflammatory thread title with "death warrant tied to their clipped wings" then get upset when somebody dares challenges the opinions within That title alone speaks volumes on his stance, he fully knew a provocative title like that would illicit a response and he got a strong one. You are 100% correct we all have opinions he voiced his and i voice mine. Edited December 13, 2011 by carlsjr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanlung Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 (edited) carlsjr, Why not you do as you please and say that it is your decision. No one can fault you for that or say you do not have any right to do as you decide. Why do you have to make me out as an EXPERT when I made it very clear here and in many of my writings that I am but a student. If you need experts, you can find the experts of your choosing. Anything I wrote and not attributed to another by name is my opinion. Never have I tried to present that as scientific proof. It is you who decide, to your satisfaction, that I tried to present that as scientific proof. Or is it I cannot make any opinions at all? and only EXPERTS can make opinions? Experts are everywhere, and gurus as well , casting pearls before their fascinated followers. You showed clearly you found them. Then you need only to follow them. Why do you need to cast aspersions against anyone who say anything that contradict them? You must have the faith in the experts that you choose. Why do you even need to ask that original question that caused this thread to be formed? My apologies if you meant that only as a rhetorical question. To ensure I never ever will misunderstand you anymore, I placed you into my ignore list. I am just a student asking if the Emperor wear cloths in the first place. Perhaps that Emperor did to your heart's content. Then you should go and admire those cloths. Do not bother with my anecdotal statements as surely the test of time will show that clarity of truths and facts from those that you decide worth following and listening to. Even better still is that you do not pay the price. The cost of those truths and facts from your chosen experts will fall on the bird. Why ask me all those follow up questions? Just idle curioisity? If you are truly interested in the answers, go to that forum and read for yourself. Ask those other writers if you need more details. Why bother with me? Get them yourself from the horse mouth directly. I said enough on this thread. I think I rather go smell roses, play chess , be with my Jackie and many other gainful things. Edited December 13, 2011 by shanlung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 ummm getting medical opinions from a doctor and animal nurse is not hearsay. a vet giving advice on something inside their expertise, like a sick dog, then it would not be hearsay. In a court of law this would be referred to as expert testimony. It is not hearsay if the doctor or nurse themselves give the evidence but if you quote or paraphrase their opinion it is hearsay. The reason courts don't accept hearsay evidence is because it is not possible to cross examine the original source. Courts only accept expert testimony directly from the expert not from a third party for that reason. Shanlung was not challenging you as you seem to think. He was not calling you out he was trying to give his opinion in answer to a question you posed. You believe his assertion on the dangers of clipping are "flat out wrong" but he is far from alone in his belief. I personally know someone who lost a clipped parrot to dog because it was unable to fly off. The poor thing was chased around a garden in a panic and was killed before it could be rescued. Escaped parrots have also been seen to be mobbed by wild birds. A clipped bird would stand little chance of escape from that situation. Shanlung is far from flat out wrong. so be it. friends are cool and ive made a few on this board. but i want correct info based upon fact and study, not one based upon groundless speculation or baseless feelings. Shanlung's assertions are not based on " groundless speculation or baseless feelings." They are based on years of parrot keeping and experience. there are no innuendos at all about what i said. This is a classic innuendo: im curious, shanlung, why did you get kicked off and banned the other parrot forums? his writings are interesting to read but lack a whole lot of substance. they are a one way opinion piece meaning you either subscribe to his ideology or you are not worth talking to.... I don't know where you get the idea that Shanlung is promoting some kind of ideology. making a thread with my name in the title is a direct call out and i will respond with my own opinions. You are right I will not follow his advice, and i will challenge anybody who tries to pass off information that is flat out wrong especially when its dealing with the health of a person or animal. One member on here lost his young grey by feeding him garlic after reading on some loons website that no harm can come from giving a parrot garlic. I find it a bit odd that you equate one persons recommendation that a parrot should be allowed to be fully flighted for all kinds of psychological ,physiological and safety reasons with another's that feeding a parrot raw garlic is a good idea. It is not right that you associate Shanlung with that. I think it is good that we have this forum to discuss our experiences and ideas but please don't take offence where none was intended. As Nancy has said what we all want is for our birds to be healthy happy and safe. Steve n Misty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shanlung Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Rest of you who enjoyed what I wrote and especially Mistyparrot who defended me, Thank you. Much of the attack on me was based on psuedo science.Making me to be something I never claimed as that I wrote scientifically and to be demonished as anecdoctal, and by implications everything he chose to say is scientifcally based. What he liked became facts, what he did not like, a ton of manure of his chosing will be dumped on top. And using of straw dogs. By claiming for me what I never claimed for myself, thereby setting up a straw dog, then go to beat and tear that straw dog he created to pieces, to prove he was so much more superior. Chinese knew of straw dogs 3 thousand years ago and that was written into the Taoist bible Tao Te Ching over 3 thousand years back. To see a westerner crafting that on me to use on me is laughable, and pathetic. As if I do not know of that kind of cheapest of cheap arguments. If he want to clip, just go and clip. No need for any kind of scientific rigmarole and clownish contortionistic exhibition of his own stupidity and his own confessing what I wrote was too long and too difficult to be understood. But with him safely in my ignore list, I never ever see whatever he will write. Back to what I rather want to talk about. Welcome Shanlung, I agree with you and your words of wisdom. My birdies are all flighted and it is my worst fear that they will decide to take a journey around the neighborhood. They would be so delighted to be outside flying around they wouldn't even think about me until they landed somewhere and wanted their supper. "Where is mommy and my dinner and why doesn't she come get me, I'm so cold and hungry!" But my babies remain flighted because the joy of watching them fly and the apparent delight in their happy freedom is breathtaking. Nothing more beautiful than the sound of their flapping wings as they come looking for me. I do have my three microchipped so they can be returned to me if necessary. And it is my understanding that here in the States it is a crime if a micro-chipped animal is not returned and any vet will read an animal for a microchip free of charge. luvparrot, you know taking my parrot out for regular neighbourhood walks had many motives. Here were some of those. 1. We all enjoyed those walks, without enjoyment, that could never be done on sustained basis. 2. To let the parrot see and know and be familiar with the entire neighbourhood, to know how to get back should Murphy called. 3. To fly the flag with neighbours, so they know Tinkerbell or Riamfada was mine and be very friendly with them all and especially their kids, also in case Murphy called. Luckily for above in free flights in neighbourhood for both Tinkerbell or Riamfada, goodwill of neighbours never had to be called on. But it will be good to know that that is there. I hear you loud and clear of the microchipping of bird which I agree is a good idea especially if as you said legal return is required in the States. I do not live in the States, and I think as the case of many other folks here. Greys can caused bond to be formed. By the time, a grey is taken to the vet, that bond might be so big that it might be very very difficult for the finder to want to seek the owner and return the bird. The finder might not even want the microchip to be searched for. Which was why I rather have that thingy tied to Riamfada's harness with my name and telephone in case of accidents. See how this came about in 'Reflections on Riamfada at edge of the Empty Quarter and some rants ' http://shanlung.livejournal.com/112576.html I think the chance of recovery will diminished exponentially with time, and the best time for that return should be immediately on finding of that bird. You relied on the law. I rather rely on getting the birdie back immediately before attachment and that bond has the time to form in the first place That route remained anecdotal, as with all my free flights with Riamfada, she always came back to me and therefore, not tested. I wrote on some of those free flights in detail. But I had done many many other free flights that were mentioned only in the passing or not even mentioned at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvenking Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Guys, if you really....really love your bird. I think you will find the right answers. Just think about the Grey and put yourself in their shoes. Think about how you would feel. I'll say no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kins2321@yahoo.com Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 If you reread my post... I said IF my birds were outside... they could fly only sixteen feet in either direction. I HAVE seen them spooked! Don't trust them at all! Kiki especially, who is an amazing flyer, would be up that 100 ft. willow tree in my neighbors yard. As the years go by, they get trimmed for annoying feathers. I still considered them trimmed. Sophie use to garden with me. She doesn't anymore. ( sad). Nancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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