Psychological trauma like I have never seen - need help

[babysweet]

Ok, so a little background. I do dog and parrot rescue. Dog for about five years now, parrot for about two - although I've been a trainer for 12 years.

 

Recently I heard about this African Grey named Jakob. Jakob was adopted soon after weaning from a respectable breeder (one I have used before to purchase a Green Cheek Conure as well as a Grey Head Parrot). Everything was going great, Jakob was starting to talk, he was well bonded with his family.

 

Then his dad left for a few days. I'm unsure of the details (care during vacation for example) but when he returned home, he describes the cage as if a "bomb went off." Most of Jakob's feathers were broken, blood was everywhere - all over the cage, the walls... even his extra large ceramic dishes were tossed to the floor - not an easy feat, even for a grey.

 

Soon after when Jakob's full extent of his trauma became apparent, Jakob's dad returned him to the breeder. After eight months with the breeder, little progress has been made.

 

Jakob has a cage in a room upstairs with a few other cages (two maybe?). Generally during the day Jakob is out on his stand and has few problems aside from his complete and utterly apparent terror. When he is in his cage and his caregiver is downstairs, he will suddenly scream bloody murder and throw himself to the bottom of the cage. His caregiver does not respond (not wanting to reinforce the behaviour) and some days he'll do it 1-4 times, other days not at all.

 

When on his stand, he is very anxious about being approached. He will allow himself to be picked up, and has not bitten anyone to the point of blood - nothing short of a miracle in a bird this traumatized. He does not pluck (I know, wth... a grey that doesn't pluck) but all of his feathers are destroyed and he looks like a baby. If you go to pick him up and he doesn't want to be picked up, he will throw himself backwards onto the floor with no concern for his own safety - it is pure terror.

 

Oddly enough, his eyes don't seem to pin the way that I'm used to seeing in a grey's face.

 

My fear is that he's suffered some kind of head trauma and is now suffering from epilepsy (can birds get epilepsy? My true specialty is dogs). He's seen a veterinarian, and the vet couldn't find any medical reason for his issues. However, he did put him on a sedative (sorry, no details) that the caregiver said was $100 a bottle. He did improve after dosing, but dosing requires toweling and using a syringe to medicate him. I think this equates to paying one credit card bill with another credit card.

 

I have not agreed to take him. We will be going out tomorrow to visit Jakob again (my husband has never met him) and to make a decision.

 

I was hoping that someone (anyone!) has any ideas as far as what could have caused this, how to solve the issues, or just a helpful comment.

 

I need help. Jakob needs help. He's been confined to a tiny cage for sleeping so that when he throws himself off his perch he has less distance to fall down and cause injury. The rest of his day is spent on his stand, constantly looking around for danger. This is no way to live, and I want to help him.

 

Suggestions?

 

By the way of an introduction, let me just say that I'm an open book. I say what I think, do what I think is right, and encourage others to do the same. With that being said, I take criticism as well as I take compliments, so by all means if your opinion is less than positive do not hold back. I want all opinions, the good, the bad and the ugly.

[Jayd]

Thank you, Question? Quote:Then his dad left for a few days. I'm unsure of the details (care during vacation for example) but when he returned home,Unquote. Who took care of the bird at this time? Did they do anything to the bird? A story: A woman had a wonderful Grey for eight years, one day the woman had track lighting in stalled above the cage by to work men, with the Grey still in the cage! to this day, the bird has never been the same... Maybe I shouldn't say it, but it sounds as if someone or animal or something did this to the baby!!! Welcome to the Forum Jayd

[Dave007]

There's many reasons this could have happened. It could have been something that happened outside, inside, a serious fall in the cage, landing in the wrong spot, sudden lightning or a heavy amount of thunder or lights not being put on at the regular normal time. It's very possible that he suffered brain damage or serious head damage. A very common thing for a grey to do is to self mutilate. If given enough time while the bird is alone, that feather mutilation can be very serious. I have a bird that did that simply because he was alone all day. At least your has some baby feathers--mine looked like a plucked chicken except for it'd head. If the feather damage is as bad as you say, it's gonna take a long time for the bird to look normal and there's a possibility that some damaged areas will never grow feathers again since you said blood is involved. There could be a minor fracture that the vet may have missed. That's not unusual.

Epilepsy--yes parrots can have epilepsy but what you're describing isn't epilepsy. When a bird has a seizure the after effects last a very long time and the bird will stay on the bottom of the cage, be very quiet for a long period of time and when a bird has a seizure, that's actually the best time to pick him up. They won't fight back. A bird takes quite a while to come back from a seizure.

 

"""He did improve after dosing, but dosing requires toweling and using a syringe to medicate him. I think this equates to paying one credit card bill with another credit card.""""

 

In many medical situations thats a very common way to give medication especially if there's no other way to give it and a vet usually teaches the person how to do it.

Unfortunately at least for now even though you might not like it, the bird has to live like this until this long term problem is seriously addressed. His behavior can be seen all the time. In his situation, the perch/perches in that cage need to be lowered to about 5 inches above the grating. The cage needs a heavy duty towel, prefrebably white since any possible blood or bad droppings can be easily seen. You say the plucking has slowed. That's a plus. Many times, a physological problem is much harder to deal with that a physical problem.

 

""""If you go to pick him up and he doesn't want to be picked up, he will throw himself backwards onto the floor with no concern for his own safety - it is pure terror.""""

 

Don't pick him up. If it scares him than that's a setback. Many things that were present in the past may have to be temporarily curtailed right now. Many times, readjustment is a very long process and obviosly, from what you're saying, the problem was very serious. Right now, the bird has to feel that it can relax and that's not happening right now. It's up to the owner to provide that atmosphere.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Dave007

[Elvenking]

What you describe makes me ask if he is now blind for some reason? I am really grasping at straws but it was a significant question i cam up with while reading that. If someone left for a few days...does that mean he was left alone for all those days? Earthquakes can also set off a grey flying into the bars of a cage. But i don;t know...there is a big piece of a story missing here.

[Elvenking]

""""If you go to pick him up and he doesn't want to be picked up, he will throw himself backwards onto the floor with no concern for his own safety - it is pure terror.""""

 

Don't pick him up. If it scares him than that's a setback. Many things that were present in the past may have to be temporarily curtailed right now. Many times, readjustment is a very long process and obviosly, from what you're saying, the problem was very serious. Right now, the bird has to feel that it can relax and that's not happening right now. It's up to the owner to provide that atmosphere.

 

I agree with Dave. Nothing should be rushed at this point. Give him a ton of space. Approach gently and if it looks unwanted stay back. Try to give treats and such maybe. But don't expect any major leaps, he won't change on a dime.

[babysweet]

As I mentioned, Dave, the bird does not pluck. He doesn't self mutilate at all. That's part of what's making me really wonder about him... all that stress on a grey and it doesn't pluck? Makes no sense to me.

 

The feathers are destroyed because of his lack of concern for his own safety when he thrashes himself around his cage.

 

I know no details about the time that the owner was away. I'm hoping to get the former owner's contact information so that I can nail down the details.

 

We haven't agreed to take him yet, I'm taking my husband to meet him tomorrow. I just wanted to bounce as many ideas as possible around before we agree to anything or so that at least I can make a game plan for his rehab should we bring him home.

 

I agree, Dave, that brain damage *may* be involved. His eye movement was not what I'm used to... I'm not terribly familiar with greys (been around tons, but never lived with one) Amazons are more my specialty, but the movement was just.... off. I'll post video if we bring him home.

 

Sorry, can't remember who suggested he was blind, but he's most definitely not. I was quite focused on his vision due to the odd movement I described.

 

Does anyone know of any natural supplements that can be safely used for birds? Generally with my dog cases, diet, supplements and natural treatments play a big role. I'd like to be working with my full toolbox, but won't be using anything without reassurances of safety.

 

Thanks everyone who has replied, and who has any comments or suggestions about this poor little character. Who knows, I may be posting tomorrow that he's home.

 

Another question - due to his cage concerns, I was considering sleeping him in a modified PetMate KennelMate. The plastic sides and top would prevent more feathers from being broken, and he may feel more protected. He doesn't seem to do the scream and freak out thing when out on his stand, so the parrot stand downstairs can be his home during the day. Any thoughts?

 

I do have a giant Macaw sized cage (the largest of the EZCare cages) that I would like to use, but I'm concerned for his safety.

[babysweet]

I agree with Dave. Nothing should be rushed at this point. Give him a ton of space. Approach gently and if it looks unwanted stay back. Try to give treats and such maybe. But don't expect any major leaps, he won't change on a dime.

 

I agree completely. The woman who has him now has been working for 8 months with little to no progress. I've rehabbed many birds - but they've all been aggressive, and predictable as far as birds go. This one is quite the mystery.

[Dave007]

This also is what may be contributing to the bird's behavior--normally, a bird that's been injured, major or minor injuries, if needed the first place is a vet visit. If the bird has to stay there, it's because of a medical situation. The bird won't like it there. Who likes a hospital? The next place for the bird to go to is right back home into a familar atmosphere. That's where a bird who's ill or well, feels the most secure and can relax in the comfort of it's own home

 

*****Soon after when Jakob's full extent of his trauma became apparent, Jakob's dad returned him to the breeder. After eight months with the breeder, little progress has been made.*****

 

Very bad idea. No matter how sick the bird was, it shouldn't have been sent into a new unrecognisable place. That can produce very bad effects on a bird who is either well or sick. Many will tell you that greys are extremely sensitive to things like that. Many people even have problems with their well bird after putting the bird into a place that baby sits birds while the people go away for a few days. When that discussion is talked about, many will try to tell others to have someone come to the house to feed/water the bird as well as providing some human contact. The breeder had other birds there. Habits and atmosphere was different there. Then, after no luck, the bird was sent back to the owner. That's basically like rehoming a bird twice. Even very healthy greys who are rehomed have problems in each new establishment. There's many things that a grey will find strange and will act negativly on a grey. All parrots have different personalities. There's other species that might have acted a bit different than the grey and that has to do with personality.

A grey can pick up an aggressive or defensive or frightened attitude when being rehomed. Doing something like that to a sick bird isn't a good idea at all. The bird needs security, people it knows, familar surroundings, household habits that he/she is familar with. It's my opinion that bringing a traumatised , injured bird to a stranger was a bad idea can more than likely deter a bird from getting on the right track.

 

*****When he is in his cage and his caregiver is downstairs, he will suddenly scream bloody murder and throw himself to the bottom of the cage. His caregiver does not respond (not wanting to reinforce the behaviour) and some days he'll do it 1-4 times, other days not at all. *****

 

The only thing the bird is saying and acting out is that he/she doesn't wanna be alone. Reinforcing the behavior? Listen, the bird is sick, injured and possibly has other physical problems concerning what happened. The present baehavior is from something that no one seems to know about.

 

If you do decide to take the bird you'll need to do 3 very important things----

1---make sure that the bird is in the middle of everything so that daily habits and goings on can been seen. You can also benefit from this because you may be able to spot things that are upsetting the bird before they get frantic.

2---Make sure that you make an appointment with a different vet to get a second opinion. Make sure the vet is avian.

3---Expect to deal with a bird who first has to settle down in your home andbegin the process of healing.

 

Really think hard about taking this bird because the last thing he needs is another place to go to if you can't cope. This is nothing against you but many people bite off more than they can chew.

I don't know you. I don't know how experienced you are with physically handicapped or traumatiesed, injured birds nor am I gonna ask.

You asked that no one should pull punches so I'm laying it on the line and I'm not putting you or the present owner down. I'm only thinking about a traumatised bird.

 

PS---it doesn't matter if that bird originally came from that breeder. Sending the bird back there was sending the bird back into a new, unfamilar place which was a bad idea.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Dave007

[shanlung]

I wish I know what to say.

 

Despite your clear explicit describtions, there are too many unknown factors that came into play.

I cannot add anything more than what Dave had said.

 

I wish Jakob good recovery

 

 

S

[babysweet]

Really think hard about taking this bird because the last thing he needs is another place to go to if you can't cope. This is nothing against you but many people bite off more than they can chew.

I don't know you. I don't know how experienced you are will mentally or physically handicapped or injured birds nor am I gonna ask.

You asked that no one should pull punches so I'm laying it on the line and I'm not putting you or the present owner down. I'm only thinking about a traumatised bird.

 

Dave, while I appreciate your take on the situation, I would suggest that you fully read and comprehend each post prior to hitting reply. Several times you have given me information not even remotely related to the situation at hand, and the inquiries that I have posed have gone unanswered and replaced with what seems like form letter responses.

 

I've rehabbed birds before. From budgies to Amazons, we've handled dozens of species. I've been a dog trainer for 12 years. I realize that caution, patience and compassion are the recipe here.

 

I don't know how experienced you are will mentally or physically handicapped or injured birds nor am I gonna ask.

 

Really? One would assume that in order to make any kind of suggestions regarding the behavioural modification techniques necessary to rehabilitate this bird that this is pretty pertinent information, no? I mean, if you're as serious as you sound and as knowledgeable as you say you are... after all, I don't know you either.

[Jayd]

Anytime a re-home of a rescue is involved, all issues need to be addressed. We can only judge ourselves. It appears from what you've written about yourself and your experiences, your aware of issues involved, and stating you wanted to be sure, the decision can be only made by you...To my original post, not wanting to wish it, I still wonder if someone did this to the poor baby, in my rescues, I've see it alot.....

Edited August 7, 2010 by Jayd

[babysweet]

I agree with you completely Jayd.

 

But I have to admit that on a grey forum I was hoping for a bit more... well, information.

 

"Take it slow" is good advice to any rescuer of any animal, but what I'm interested in is behavioural modification technique, and what approach/plan is going to get this bird back on his feet?

 

Details need to be arranged, such as where does the bird sleep? Can you use natural supplements with birds? What should the bird sleep in? Are there any specific calming behaviours greys use that I should be aware of?

 

Thanks anyways for all of your advice - everyone who replied. Perhaps this is not the correct forum for these inquiries.

[Jayd]

NONONO, Please don't leave, you have so much to offer, it's the weekend it's slow. Let me get working on this later this evening I'll have something for you..Jay

[babysweet]

And just before anyone suggests the google, I've been everywhere. I've always found the best information comes from the people who live with species in question on a daily basis, hence my choice of research vehicle.

[GoDiego]

Hi babysweet, I am no way experienced enough to offer advice on rehabilitating such a traumatised parrot. However, I have come across some information about seizures which may be of use to you http://www.avianweb.com/seizures.html I've also found some great information from a lady who re-homes special case parrots, including traumatised ones at http://www.parrothouse.com/pamelaclark/secondhand.html She also talks about providing care for a blind parrot, did the vet say anything about why her eyes are not pinning?

 

I'm sorry I could not offer you any personal experiences but I hope some of the information helps, maybe you could also contact Pamela Clark who is the lady in the 2nd link.

 

Good Luck with everything and I hope it turns out to be a happy ending

Edited August 7, 2010 by GoDiego

[babysweet]

Thanks, GoDiego. It's not that they *couldn't* pin, it's just that they *weren't* pinning.

 

For a bird experiencing the range of emotions I know that this one was, that just doesn't strike me as normal. The vet didn't mention it, or at least that information was never passed on to me.

 

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

[GoDiego]

No problem babysweet. Is he still on a sedative?, maybe this has something to do with his eyes not pinning.

 

Would the breeder agree for you both to go to the Avian vet together, so that you can hear what he has to say first hand? Or would he give you the vets telephone number so that you can talk to them directly in case their is a deeper problem that he is not letting on at the moment?

[Birdnut]

Hi babysweet.

 

Whew! What a difficult problem. I'm not an expert by any means, but thought I'd share the impressions/thoughts that came to mind on reading your posts.

 

As Dave suggested, anything could have spooked and terrified this bird. It's going to be helpful if you can talk to the past owner, but it sounds like the owner may have no idea what happened, either.

 

Here are the images that flooded into my mind: Something, whatever, so terrified this bird that he panicked and did the instinctive thing, which was bolt and fly away. But here he encountered the fact that he was in a cage. The cage that had been his secure home suddenly became a trap. The harder he struggled, the more trapped he felt, and he struggled even harder. His terror became focused on the restraint of the cage, itself. His panicky thrashing caused injury which seemed to be inflicted by the cage. (Have you ever seen a wild animal in a trap?) His struggling ended only when he was so exhausted and so flooded by fear, he was immobilized and helpless.

 

Haven't we all had nightmares like this, where we are confronted with some terror and unable to run away? This is a regular theme in nightmares, which suggests to me that it draws on a deep level of the reptilian brain, which parrots would share with us.

 

If there's anything to these impressions, then the cage itself is now a source of terror -- like someone that has suffered torture in a small, windowless room, and now experiences panic attacks when they find themselves in a similar room.

 

I say this, because from what you say, it sounds like Jakob feels the least terrified when he's out of the cage. Would it be possible to manage him without confining him to a cage and see how that goes? If he is on a comfortable perch and the lights are turned out, he's unlikely to move around until daylight.

 

You are certainly a hero if you take this poor creature on. My heart goes out to you and Jakob.

[Birdnut]

Are there any specific calming behaviors greys use that I should be aware of?

 

A few suggestions (not sure if any of this will be new information to you):

 

Spend time around the bird without looking directly at him; just hang out. Occasionally, look up at him and talk to him from the other side of the room. No pressure; just hanging out.

 

Blinking your eyes is reassuring to a bird.

 

I read an article that said that making "shhh" sounds is soothing to a grey; I have found this to be helpful at times when meeting a strange bird.

[pearllyn]

My heart just breaks for poor Jakob. Imagine the poor little soul going through whatever it was he went through to make him so afraid, and then just when he was at his most traumatised, he was abandoned by the family he loved and sent off to somewhere completely alien to him.

As for how to cater for him, I think you would only really know that when you get him home - some birds prefer to sleep on a perch , some in a birdy bunk, I've read of one bird sleeping clinging to the side of his cage. I would suggest, if it's at all possible, to perhaps let him stay in a bird room. As Birdnut has pointed out, it seems like he is most stressed while he is in his cage, so if you can take that stress out of the equation, you may be halfway there. So long as it's not too big and you keep it well padded, he should be safe, and the handling of him could be kept to a minimum. this way you would be able to quietly spend time with him without stressing him, building trust as you go along.

The question of natural remedies is a tricky one. I have recently read of an owner giving their parrot Bach's flower rememdy with positive results, but again, this is second hand and I can't personally speak of it's suitability. Definitely get an avian vets opinion on that, in fact, get several.

One thing is absolutely certain though. As you have said, this is no way for him to live. No matter how painful it is, sometimes we have to think about the unthinkable, and the sad truth is, putting an animal to sleep out of compassion, is the last act of kindness a human can do for that animal.

I wish you every luck with Jakob, and would dearly love for this story to have a happy ending. x

[Jayd]

We have a number of abused fids, physical and mental...Our Vets recommended, chamomile,, we've used it for many years with great success.

CHAMOMILE-- One of nature's safest and mildest sedatives useful to calm birds in stressful situations. Studies show that this herb also kills the yeast fungi Candida albicans as well as certain staph bacteria. http://www.landofvos.com/articles/kitchen5.html

http://www.birdchannel.com/bird-magazines/bird-talk/2008-february/bird-safe-flower.aspx

[Jayd]

Me again LOL,

Check this about African Grey Phobics..http://www.africangreys.com/articles/greys/elephants.htm

 

Do a search on the web for this, Interesting!!!!! "Phobic Poicephalus"

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=VmrxwGUsOpwC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=Phobic+Poicephalus&source=bl&ots=auMijK1kCv&sig=H4BUYVRZlzukXdLa0g87zytaAHE&hl=en&ei=vNxdTPLMMJS6sQPl2PSqCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Phobic%20Poicephalus&f=false

Edited August 7, 2010 by Jayd

[danmcq]

I feel very sorry for this poor Grey. It obviously went through a traumatic experience to the extreme from the description of the cage, blood and body damage. Regardless of what caused this terrible fright, the bottom line is probably happened while the bird was with a human present. The bird I suspect now has terrible separation anxiety as Dave suggested just by a human walking out of sight. This bird is going to require 24-7 attention and special care by a very knowledgeable person that used used to dealing with this level of psychological damage.

 

From your introduction and further posts, it sounds like the first thing this grey needs is to have a flock member (human) in sight at all times. It does not want any physical contact at this point, just the security of knowing it is with the flock. They are a flock creature and mentally wired to always be with the flock. IN their mind, in their survival depends upon the flock.

 

I suspect the most soothing thing you or someone else could do for this poor grey, is to sit in sight, talk very softly and read, watch tv etc. with the bird cage just a few feet away. This is going to be a long rehab from the sounds of it. This grey is going to need to be studied second by second for cause and affect of everything a person does or says with this bird and adjusted accordingly in my opinion.

 

I have a Doberman I rescued 5 years ago. I will not go into the trauma it experienced, but I will only say this Doberman woul dnot let me out of sight without going nuts. It had to be by my side wherever I went. I mention this because he needed that security of being with someone at all times he felt secure with. It took 2 full years to get him to the point of dealing with separation from me. Since then, he has been a normal happy go lucky and confident dog that anyone visiting or interacting with him would never dream of his past. I view this grey as having the same mental damage.

[tarm]

natural supplements to aid in brain damage and for brain health:

 

Icelandic Cod Liver Oil find the very best you can. contains the fatty acids that are used in the brain and neuotrasmitters (omega 3 DHA etc)

Octacosanol its found in legumes and wheat germ and the wax of other plants

B-12

Folic Acid (b6)

Vit C

CoQ10 powerful brain cell antioxident and heart too.

Alpha Lipoic Acid ALA This potent antioxidant has many positive effects, including preventing stroke damage and protecting the nerve cells of diabetics. But alpha lipoic acid is also one of the few nutrients you can take orally that raises levels of the antioxidant glutathione in brain cells.

Acetyl-L-Carnitine can protect the brain from neurotoxicity and oxygen deprivation, preserve cells energy-producing mitochondria and rejuvenate mental and physical function.

 

 

Normally zinc is very good but unfortunately not in birds. I would start with only the fish oil and see how that works for a month or two. All you have is time after all. Then move to adding the others after clearing it with a vet one at a time on a long introduction schedule. Again clear it with a vet. While I know these are good for brain damage I an not be certain with avians and I have no idea on proper dosing amounts but a avian vet will or should know that or can get it on a bdy wght dose table.

 

Before anything other than the fish oil which is good no matter what if only for D3, I would get a stable living condition and trust as only then you will you be able to accurately access her condition as I am sure you know. It may be nothing more than a super traumatic experience and gets frighten or panicked so bad as to induce a seizure which is known to happen with nervous breeds. Likely has to do with adrenaline overload and blood vessel reaction in the brain to the huge amounts. At least that's my best guess.

[babysweet]

Would it be possible to manage him without confining him to a cage and see how that goes? If he is on a comfortable perch and the lights are turned out, he's unlikely to move around until daylight.

 

You are certainly a hero if you take this poor creature on. My heart goes out to you and Jakob.

 

 

Thank you so much for your interpretation to what happened. That sounds perfectly plausible, and while knowing the real story would be optimal, this helps me to foresee future issues.

 

I agree with the cage free attempt, however the cost of converting a room for Jakob is going to be extensive... and the woman who currently has him (who I just found out was not his original breeder, but rather just someone who took the bird in) is asking $500 for him. I thought for sure they would waive the fee when they realized what kind of placement was available here (we run a dog rescue and special needs dogs are always advertised with adoption fees, but frequently are they enforced for obvious reasons).

 

I refuse to let this woman profit from Jakob. I can't take him unless she waives the fee, and she's really being difficult - telling me that he's the worst she's ever seen, and how patience and consistency is what will cure him, not expensive vets and behaviourists - and then proceeds to tell me that in 8 months of patience and consistency he's not improved.

 

I'm frustrated. I want to know Jakob, and I *think* I know how (or at least know that we could figure it out) and she's upset that she won't recoup the maintenance costs for the bird. They breed about a dozen species - ranging from $150-1400. They have about four or five dozen babies at any time. This is not an issue of money.

 

Sorry... frustrated.