Think twice before feeding Soy Beans

[shanlung]

Tarm,

 

Shouldn't we go and smell roses instead?

Or play with our birdies.

 

Poor Riam got shut into her room so I could bang away at the keyboard.

 

I do not trust Wiki that much either but thats better than nothing.

 

I think those experts that wrote against soya beans wrote for the companies and guys who wrote their paychecks.

Making use of good nature guys like you to expand their catchment area.

 

I have been the victim in a few cases in the past if that will bring a smile to you.

 

Especially when 'experts' chose to remain silent over other stuff with phytates. As if phytates had consciousness of whether they are in soy or other grains when faced with annihilation by boiling water. That the phytates go quietly and quickly if in other beans , wheat and oats and fight boiling water kicking and screaming if in soya beans.

 

I know it is a tough world out there, and folks and 'experts' must pay rent and eat, even if they refused to eat the fragrant tofu.

 

You going to cook dem brazil nuts and almonds now before you feed your birdies with them?

 

And watch that peanut butter too! Might need cooking before feeding to birdies!

 

:-)

Edited August 10, 2010 by shanlung

[tarm]

OK just real quick as I have yet to even go to bed and the sun has been up for a couple hours now.

 

I did check the amounts and with a direct spectrometric method which is very accurate it came to phytic acid content (mg/g) was the highest in soybean (36.4mg/g) followed by urd bean (13.7mg/g), pigeonpea (12.7mg/g), mung bean (12.0mg/g) and chickpea (9.6mg/g). On an average, phytic acid constituted 78.2 percent of the total phosphorus content and this percentage figure was the highest in soybean and the lowest in mung bean. This is dried state. Chitra U, Vimala V, Singh U, Geervani P; Plant Foods Hum Nutr 1995 Feb 47:2 163-72 It is the most of any legume or bean. That is specific to legumes and beans and does not include things like grains etc.. The issue is not with the total amount compared to other foods really. It compared to all those other foods including those grains etc, the specific types of phytates sp?, which I will have to look up to specifically list but IIRC there are 16 of them are not effected nearly as much from cooking as all these others are. It is also th4e specif types but as I said I need to look those up specifically. Its what is left after cooking as I understand it. I will have to see if I can find that info out from a reviewed research paper abstract . I only spoke on that one as a reference as it tends to be focuesd on and alot of data about it. But there are still others that are in soy and no removed by boiling such as trypsin inhibitors. These inhibit protein digestion and affect pancreatic function. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors led to stunted growth and pancreatic disorders. Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D, needed for strong bones and normal growth. There is much much more. I am actually in dire need of a fw hours sleep I am starting to have trouble formulating my thoughts so I have got to get some sleep. I will create a PDf of just the abstracts and summaries to save space of numerous studies and research testing etc that has been done in the area of soybeans compounds effects when I get get wake up.

 

I do have to admit is it rather funny that its the greedy Americans that are trying to get everyone to eat soy not any other countries. I would have thought it would have been China at the top for this crop. But no, they make very little soybeans compared to the USA. IIRC, USA 38% of total worlds soybean production.

 

BTW I am a carnivore as well. If you ever happen to be in the States near Washington DC you have a open invitation over to my home for a great steak dinner. I sincerely mean that. I woudl very much like to meet you and speak with you in person as a guess at my home. There are also other toxins that I do believe`are not removed from them with long boiling and soaking etc... Also yes Americans have issues with foods that have a pungent odor or taste unlike Asians. I have had very close friends for large part of my life that were from this area Thialand China, Korea etc I have grow very found of this flavors and odors. Having these foods bring pleasant memories of my time with them. My wife on the other hand thinks I am crazy and thinks is smells and tastes bad.

 

 

About your methods of cooking with your Tinks mash etc... I was very impressed with your methods to ensure proper processing of lima beans etc. multiple soaks sprouting rinses etc.. It is very helpful when people share things such as these from their cultures as it helps others learn new ways of doing things. Some better, worse, or just different; it all helps us expand our understanding and knowledge.

 

 

I very much enjoy conversing with you Shanlung. I will post back after some shut eye.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[tarm]

Darn I just had to check and now I am posting again. I 100% agree there are better things to be doing in life then to get caught up in the countless battles being waged; most all of which are more about someone getting rich or wanting to do so more than anything else. All I will add to this is the links to the studies as I feel those being conducted by universities etc have validity but like you I am never quick to trust any one side of a story. Been there done that and will not being allowing myself to be burned more than once.

 

To change the subject to something more positive. Before I get this shut eye I keep referring to, I have been working on a spread sheet dealing with mashes and foods etc. I would like to share it with you and add add your Tinks mash to it. So I get it 100% current, can you post a link to the reciepe for your current mash. I think I have it but want to confirm as what I am doing is extremely time and labor extensive. I am hoping when finished it may be a a big help for those like you and others that create nutritionally balanced mashes and the like. I am hoping to get it posted up today as I have been very busy in the last 3-4 days.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[Malikah]

Did anyone else look up the author of the anti-soy article on Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Mercola

[Birdnut]

Did anyone else look up the author of the anti-soy article on Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Mercola

 

Thanks to Malikah for this link. Whether you agree or disagree with Dr. Mercola's positions, it is certainly a good practice to "consider the source" of information.

[tarm]

Yes but he is just one author of literally thousands and that many more of articles not to mention university testing and research. With anything written by any side in a debate or actually info in general should have multiple sources and be backed up by independent sources. Its why in the beginning I stated I hated list initially only one reference. I think its safe to say I have never seen so much written about any other main stream plant food source as soy recommending against its use. That alone should give pause as that goes beyond quacks extremest or some sort of corp. motives. Consider that this is now overwhelmingly a USA produced crop so it has nothing to do with foreign trade as well.

 

AS far as main stream science you can look up references listed in many of the articles on the net. Here is a link to a list I saved of the abstracts / summaries of research done on soybean and its various compounds and effects. This is the kind of data I look for as more hard science to back up claims. Thing such as research printed in peer reviewed journals or university or medical research. http://www.yuntaa.com/FileManager/Download.aspx?ContentID=8D7BB03AE37461CEE04400144FB7B71E

 

As can be seen its not just a couple tests or only comping from one area for research or medicine or even one country where there could be some sort of biased from invested interest. As I said its fairly main stream. Soy is big money in this country and its now in most all processed foods.

 

I do not have much more to add. More that anything I just wanted to put the info out there for people to consider in there diets for their FIDs as well as themselves.

 

IMO there is simply way to much main stream research and proof linking soy products to serious health issues to thin this product is good for you. You may want to see where all those good for health claims really came and funded from.

 

As far as its positive effects on female issues you may want to ask why that is. Why is it that soy seems to work well on issue where estrogen drugs normally work well. Why soy also seems to have the opposite effects on men. Isoflaviniod the things pro soy and food companies try to promote and a super healthy thing is a plant based estrogen. Anyone one wanting plant based birth control step up

Think what that does to developing children?

 

Here are a few links to reports on studies in that area:

 

Study links low sperm with high soy consumption

 

Soy food and isoflavone intake in relation to semen quality parameters among men from an infertility clinic

 

Effects of nutrition relevant mixtures of phytoestrogens on steroidogenesis, aromatase, estrogen, and androgen activity.

 

Taxvig C, Elleby A, Sonne-Hansen K, Bonefeld-Jørgensen EC, Vinggaard AM, Lykkesfeldt AE, Nellemann C.

 

National Food Institute, Technical University of Denmark, Department of Toxicology and Risk Assessment, Søborg, Denmark. camta@food.dtu.dk

Abstract

 

Phytoestrogens (PEs) are naturally occurring plant components produced in a large range of plants. They can induce biologic responses in vertebrates by mimicking or modulating the action or production of endogenous hormones. This study examined mixtures of 12 food relevant PEs for effects on steroid hormone production, aromatase activity, estrogenic activity, and for interaction with the androgen receptor. The results show that a mixture of all tested PEs increased estradiol production and decreased testosterone production in H295R human adrenal corticocarcinoma cells, indicating an induced aromatase activity. Furthermore, exposure of the H295R cells to isoflavonoids caused a decrease in testosterone production, and various mixtures of PEs significantly stimulated MCF-7 human breast adenocarcinoma cell growth and induced aromatase activity in JEG-3 choriocarcinoma cells. The estrogenic effect in the MCF7 cells of the isoflavonoid mixture and coumestrol was supported by an observed increase in progesterone receptor protein expression as well as a decreased ERalpha expression. Overall, the results support that nutrition-relevant concentrations of PEs both alone and in mixtures possess various endocrine disrupting effects, all of which need to be considered when assessing the effects on human health.

 

 

I think I have put out all the info I can on this subject. Anything more IMO is a tune to "beating a dead horse". All I can say is take a look at the hard facts of research and the other data and draw your own conclusions. Even if you fall on the side of it may not be that bad or unsure why in the face of so much concern take the chance when there are plenty of other options, seems like common sense to me.

Edited August 10, 2010 by tarm

[shanlung]

This is a fascinating debate. We all walked away knowing that much more.

 

Tarm,

 

I hope one day to have that steak with you and to clink a few glasses of beer together.

 

The key URL to Tinkerbell Mash is

 

Morning with Harry & the decision// Sultan of Oman Palace// Tinkerbell Mash Batch 7

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/109957.html

 

 

This was slightly modified in

Iceland and Goldman // Jebel Akhdar // Tinkerbell mash batch 8

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/114545.html

 

 

A history of the mash can be read here

SA 2010 & things //other Batchs of mash? //Katleen//neighbour walks & exuberant flights

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/116079.html

 

Tinkerbell Mash Batch 9, my final work of love for Riamfada will be made very soon as I am into the 2nd last baggie of Batch 8.

 

More slight changes will be made. That all will be detailed in the blog.

 

Malikah,

 

 

Thank you for that link. Dr. Mercola is not a savoury character. Maybe I send him a package of yummy fragrant tofu since he wrote so enthusiastically of fermented tofu.

 

The fear of USA sending agents to catch and throw me in Guantanamo on WMD charges hold my hand.

 

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

 

 

Shanlung

 

山龍

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

 

 

 

 

[Jayd]

You people are all beautiful...Jayd

[Tweedle]

Oh, I have loved this thread

[tarm]

What is so great is threads like this anywhere else would have been bitter and heated. Amazing how things go when you have general respect. After all we are sharing and learning from each other.

 

Shanlung,

 

I hope that day does come. Thank you for confirming the mash info.

 

Cheers,

 

Tim

[Malikah]

isoflavonoids caused a decrease in testosterone production, and various mixtures of PEs significantly stimulated MCF-7 human breast adenocarcinoma cell growth

 

Shhh don't tell my husband, he thinks I shouldn't be such a tomboy and I'm sure he'd be happy with the rest of that sentence! LOL! Thanks for the info, I'm glad I don't plan on becoming a vegetarian anytime soon. I'm not giving up my ocassional maodou either.

[tarm]

Ha!Ha! Ha!

[Birdnut]

Group hug!!!!

[Guest]

I also enjoyed the tongue-in-cheek posting by shanlung but have to say that there was soooooooooooooooooo much more to tarm's article than what shanlung pointed out (high levels of phytates/soak, rinse, soak, rinse). For one, the negative effects of soy are cumulative, and with daily feedings (or even occasional) of soy to a bird that has such a long life, well, I'd think twice, personally.

 

Anyway, I thought I'd risk being bashed to death (since I'm so new here and shanlung is so revered) and post my thoughts, since the article was very thorough and addressed the negatives of soy and shanlung's post was soooooooooo adorable and cute and I thought members might read his post and then not bother to read, delve into, and endeavor to grasp the content of the article that tarm posted.

 

And by the way, shanlung, if you are ever in the Los Angeles area, well, I'd also welcome you into my home for a steak dinner (or whatever animal protein you fancied!), and then I'd love to drive us to Chinatown the next day so you could find me some "fragrant" tofu to try - unlike many of my American friends, I am very adventurous and will try just about anything! :-)

[Jayd]

If I may: It is important to remember that tofu is a soy product. If your bird displays hormonal tendencies or has plucking or picking habits, discontinue all soy products. Soybeans contain natural forms of estrogen which can enhance hormone levels. http://www.greyfeathertoys.com/html/dairy.html

Edited August 13, 2010 by Jayd

[shanlung]

>^..^<

 

 

To the only person that I know here that could not be written with the 26 characters of the alphabet.

 

I thought this thread had ended with tarm doing a steak for me and I bringing the beer.

 

I had to come back on some of the inaccuracies in your writing.

 

My name is not revered. More accurately , I think I am regarded with some sort of fascinated horror as a kind of heretical madman who needed to be tarred and feathered. Only question is if thats to be done now and then, or all the time.

 

I was cute , very cute in my toddling days. Not that anymore. In a dark night, if good folks are caught between me and a fragrant tofu stall, they turn and walk towards that stall.

 

The arguments against soybean/tofu rested on its estrogen content and phytates.

 

When I first entered this thread, I felt like a bumble-bee buzzing into a symposium of theoritical experts expounding away with calculations and graphs proving to beyond shadow of doubt that bumble-bee just cannot fly. Yet there I was flying about their charts, bodies and clipboard not knowing that I could not fly at all.

 

The estrogenic ickky stuff, causing low sperm count, little or no sex drive, should have caused the Chinese and East Asiatic races to have faded away. The East Asiatic people is among the largest component of the human race despite supposedly having the low sex drive and low sperm count from the evil soybeans.

 

Unless they take the fermented tofu, which alas, to those without elevated taste buds, might well prefer the curse than the cure.

 

The estrogenic iccky stuff is also supposed to cause breast tissue to form. I find it fascinating that Chinese women seemed to have about the smallest breast sizes in the world. When I was in Taiwan, the amount of adverts hitting the air on how to increase the bosom of your girlfriend, or to the women on how to prevent the boyfriend from wandering away, flogging potions made from bananas, snake oil , and everthing else but soyabeans.

 

Westerner women were the rage in the East. More for their lungs and not for the looks.

I could not believe those Westerner women had a fetish for eating tofu burgers and tofu hotdogs.

 

With all the unfermented tofus with estrogens in them, the saddest part of that is Chinese women have the least oogle-able bosoms.

 

 

The phytates article in Wiki is not a contentious issue. Some topics in Wiki are so contentious that what you see there depends on who decided to edit there last.

 

At any rate, it was clear lots of other food stuff contained enough phytates even if tarm and I could not exactly agree on which got what.

 

We agreed washing and soaking and washing and soaking get those stuff away sufficiently.

 

I love to take up your offer on steak when I am in your part of the world.

 

http://www.sfweekly.com/2001-07-18/dining/the-sweet-stench-of-success/

gave explicit directions to that restaurant in San Francisco that served that delectable tofu. After that steak with you, I will go with you to that fragrant tofu restaurant to let you know if they kept the standard up or toned that down for the Americans.

 

In Taiwan and Hongkong there are so many fragrant tofu stalls. Not all are the same.

The best I ever had was in Chiayi city where I stayed a couple of years with Tinkerbell and been back to even more years to be with my sweet Tink again.

 

That fragrant tofu tasted so delicious and meaty that you would have sworn it must be made from Kobe beef and the Spanish black pig combined together.

 

That stall could be smelled not just across the road, that stall could be smelled down the road as well.

 

 

 

 

Warmest regards

 

 

 

Shanlung

 

山龍

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9