Specific techniques for reprimand

[timotian]

these reprimands are effective only after the implementation of dominance training.important note:under no circumstances is violence an acceptable reprimand.

A)results of use of violence with a parrot

1.the bird is seriously injured.

2.the parrot responds to the owner violence with more aggression.according to Doane"Violence begets violence."the parrot will also probably never trust the owner again.

B)the "Evil Eye"

1.definition:an extremely dirty look delivered to a parrot whenever the bird needs correction in its behavior.used properly the evil eye will stop a child in his or her tracks and is has precisely the same effect on parrots.

2.the evil eye is used alone or in conjeunction with another reprimand technique laddering.

C)Laddering

1.stepping a parrot from one hand to the other with the "up" command with a positive focus is integral to the process of dominance training.in dominance training it is initianted when the owner says "up" with a friendly tone of voice smiling and giving the bird positive feedback each time the command is followed.

2.laddering as a reprimand is done differently:

a.the owners voice is quiet but decidedly unfriendly as he/she says "up".

b.the owner gives the parrot the full force of the evil eye.

c.the owner steps the bird from one hand to the other several times with the "up" command.

d.in this manner the parrot is reminded in a completely unaggressive manner that it is lower in rank than the human.Note:the parrots bihavior will change drastically in response to this reprimand it has a strong effect.

D)Little earthquake

effective reprimand for a parrot that bites the hand on which it is sitting.the owner instantly moves his/her hand just enough to cause the bird to lose its balance for a second without causing the bird to fall to the floor.done consistently the parrot will learn not to bite when siting on a hand.

reference:http://www.persianpet.org

[danmcq]

A few comments, if you don't mind. Parrots do not understand punishment. Laddering is punishment and also a very negative thing to do to your parrot. Most all behavior professionals advise against it and many call it abuse. A Parrot may just become so angry after a few times of this, it will bite more often when you request a step-up, than previous to this form of punishment.

 

Rolling the hand will sometimes work. After a while, they will soon learn to just grab your hand with their beak and I guarantee you, it does not feel good at all. Most flighted birds do not even care if you rock and roll your hand. They are very coordinated and not afraid of falling due to their flight capabilities.

 

Also, birds do not understand dominance, as in an alpha dog at all. If a bird responds to what you may call dominance, it is due to being afraid of you. It does not respect you as the "Dominant Flock Leader". Birds do not have alpha's or leaders they look up to.

Edited July 19, 2010 by danmcq

[Spock]

Love and patients always work, not dominance training,.Thank you Dan... Maggie and Jayd

[Jayd]

reference:http://www.persianpet.org

Sorry, nice dog and cat site, not birds! Jayd

[babysweet]

I completely disagree. There are four quadrants to behaviour, and punishment makes up half of them. EVERY species on earth learns through two channels - punishment and reward.

 

Dominance is reality. Watching individuals sort out dominance hierarchy pretty much eradicates the notion that parrots don't use punishment on their very own.

 

This is not to say that I believe that punishment is the best choice in all (or any) situation, but to completely deny half of learning theory as we know it is close minded to say the least.

 

My surprise, I suppose, is that owners of parrots can watch their very own fids punish them with a bite when they feel their owners have stepped out of line, but laddering is considered "abuse".

 

Now, using "punishment" techniques with proper and full instruction to apply towards the treatment of a specific concern can be very effective. In others, it can be detrimental. This is why it's best to have a specialist on hand when dealing with issues that require such strong treatments.

[Jayd]

Thank you, people sometimes disagree, this is healthy, as I've stated I personally disagree with this theory. Thank you again. A lot of things happen daily, with out a specialist around. Jay

 

Have you read this?.....http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190309-A-note-on-Punishment-and-your-Parrot

Edited August 6, 2010 by Jayd

[Tweedle]

Agreed, babysweet, that those four quadrants have been proved to be effective - just about any 'method' that someone purports to work can be categorised as one of these. The practical application however, does come with certain caveats, and the fallout for getting it wrong can be hugely significant and detrimental to the animal/owner/relationship.

 

i.e. positive punishment needs to be immediate, happen EVERY time the behaviour occurs, and be regarded by the animal as caused by it's behaviour rather than a person turning into a bit of a git.

 

In certain circumstances, the use of aversives by (we agree) trained specialists may resolve issues, usually as a last resort. But many of my clients have difficulty marking and rewarding behaviour in a timely manner. My fear is that if they can't get a treat in their animal's mouth at the right moment, the chances of them being able to meet all the other criteria required with punishment as well are quite slim. All sorts of problems can be created and exacerbated this way.

 

Whilst I would encourage anyone/everyone to look deeper at learning theory, and see exactly how it works, I would always be concerned to see aversive methods advocated on a forum such as this, and am far happier to see 'love and patience' as the philosophy.

 

Maybe that's very patronising of me, to assume that some people will latch on to an aspect of it and apply it without fully understanding the implications, but I regularly see people applying techniques they have seen on television to their dogs, and causing big problems as a result.

[GoDiego]

Mmmm, I personally feel that it's sometimes to easy to forget that our feathered friends are not humans and therefore cannot understand punishment like we do. Personally I feel respect gains respect, if Diego is not wanting to play or interact then I respect this and let him go his own way, just the same as if I don't want to play his biting or screaming game I go my way and let him think about it for a while. Normally when I return he is much calmer which I praise profusely and treat him with a scratch on the head.

 

So far by doing this, Diego and I are getting on great guns and seem to be bonding more each day.

[shanlung]

Dominance training?

 

Over a little ball of grey?

 

How about getting out that bull whip and the electric prod?

 

Step up is the precursor to friendship. Just like a handshake is to friendship

 

To transmogrify a friendship stepup into punishment because you do not wish to understand your grey

is a travesity.

 

How do you like if I offer to shake your hand and give you a crushing handshake and grind your bones to dominate you?

And give you an evil eye as well?

 

You do not even care to see the emotion of your parrot to the point you got bitten and you blame the parrot and 'earthquake' them to punish them?

 

Is that the way you teach your own 4 year old human child? by reprimand and punishment?

 

And if they still do not understand, even more punishment?

 

Using bullwhip and electric prod that you of course, do not wish to write about? or that you do not know?

Edited August 6, 2010 by shanlung

[Jayd]

Please read Danmcq Post on his thread "http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190309-A-note-on-Punishment-and-your-Parrot/page1 #1 post....Dan's Quote:One thing everyone that just brought their first Parrot home should understand, is that a Parrot does not respond to punishment like a domesticated animal such as a Dog or Cat.Unquote...

[Birdnut]

I don't know all about the "theory," but in real life, I have found that punishment doesn't work with birds. You can choose not to use punishment because you think it's the wrong thing to do. I don't use it because there was a time when I tried it, and it just doesn't work. Birds are very smart and quick and are really good at working their way around any punishment you might attempt. Any negative interaction with a bird tends to get escalated.

 

Here in the central Texas area, we have a resident training expert: Barbara Heidenreich. She promotes positive reinforcement as the way to train and manage any behavior issues with birds. She has applied her techniques to training birds for free-flight shows, zoos, and many other facilities around the world. She teaches parrot owners to be kind and gentle with their birds, and to focus on building a relationship built on trust. If you wonder if she knows what she's talking about, try googling her name and check it out.

 

I think I'll take Barbara's word for it.

[GoDiego]

I agree Jayd and think it should be the owner that is disciplined, that is disciplined enough not to force themselves onto these wonderful creatures. I personally believe that one of the greatest wonders of owning a parrot, is that you are the closest you can be to having something wild in your home, this fascinates me and rather then forcing a behaviour onto them I think we are the ones who need to be trained to understand and respect them.

[Jayd]

As a point of interest, I'll be another 200,000 years [approx lol] before parrots will become " Domesticated'. When a Amazon fall's, He says " Ouch, I fell" A Grey, looks at all possibility's including the possibility of falling, before committing himself...

[GoDiego]

When a Amazon fall's, He says " Ouch, I fell" A Grey, looks at all possibility's including the possibility of falling, before committing himself...

 

This made me laugh as Diego is so clumsy (He's not quite sure why he has such big feet and often trips over them!) that I don't think it will be long before he starts saying Uh Oh or Ouch LOL

[Tweedle]

Hmmmm, I'm concerned my post may have come over as in support of punishment, which is not the case at all.

 

I think the point that I was trying to make is that in everyday situations punishment usually doesn't fix the problem, and may make it worse. Unfortunately, there has been plenty of scientific research showing that under particular circumstances punishment does work on birds, horrible, horrible experiments using electric shocks. There is also plenty of research showing that non-punitive methods are far more effective. So why would you use punishment to alter behaviour (with all it's potential fall out) when a more effective alternative has been clearly demonstrated?

 

More importantly is the moral question - just because something works, doesn't make it right. Modify the behaviour, but at what cost?

 

There is a bit of semantics here - my approach to training is 'reward the behaviour you want, ignore the behaviour you don't'. In technical tems, ignoring still counts as punishment - negative punishment in those four quadrants, the removing of a pleasant thing (attention) to discourage a behaviour. I think that's as strong as my punishment get's though. I'm quite uncomfortable with what I've seen of Dr.Pepperberg's use of 'scolding' in training.

 

As has been said, these birds are so darn intelligent, they can also apply the same to us!

 

And there is the whole question of what right we have to impose our demands on their behaviour at all. As I've said before, there are certain things that need to be done, and training husbandry/safety behaviours with positive methods and no distress to the bird is a good thing in my eyes.

 

Good book/website for learning theory and why positive is where it's at:

http://www.reachingtheanimalmind.com

[Birdnut]

Tweedle, I didn't read your post as supporting punishment at all. And I agree that withdrawing one's attention is an appropriate consequence of undesirable behavior. If that's a type of punishment, then I agree that type can work. I will turn away or walk away from the bird, but just for a minute or two; then I return and greet them happily like nothing happened. I've noticed that it is very effective with some of our birds, and not with others. But like you, that's as far as I want to go with punishment. Oh, and thanks for the book recommendation, I'm downloading that one on my Kindle as I type.

 

I agree Jayd and think it should be the owner that is disciplined, that is disciplined enough not to force themselves onto these wonderful creatures. I personally believe that one of the greatest wonders of owning a parrot, is that you are the closest you can be to having something wild in your home, this fascinates me and rather then forcing a behaviour onto them I think we are the ones who need to be trained to understand and respect them.

 

I agree, GoDiego. After all, it was us humans that went out and captured these creatures and forced them to join us in our lives.

[danmcq]

I'll make one comment on trying to be "Dominant" to a parrot, which is not a dog and does not respect a leader via dominance. It actually causes biting.

[Elvenking]

I'll make one comment on trying to be "Dominant" to a parrot, which is not a dog and does not respect a leader via dominance. It actually causes biting.

 

LOL...yep...I can tell from personal experience...you will not convince your bird that he\she has to bow to you. They will bite...and you certainly can;t take that enough to let him know that it is not effective. That can opener on his head will teach you different.

[shanlung]

If I wrote an earlier post in this forum which I felt is relevant in another section and thread, I normally will just put the URL to point to that post.

 

This particular thread affected me so badly that I try to heal myself by posting that earlier post into here again.

 

And if those who believe in reprimands and discipline and forceful coercion, even with bullwhips and electric prod, will be able even to dream of doing what I routinely do.

 

 

8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888

 

All that I do is to extend to them the courtesy and the dignity due to fellow sentients of equal standing, be they birds or beasts.

 

No sane person can go for walks with a parrot and followed by 2 cats around neighbourhood and in wadis.

 

Riamfada and kitties

 

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/100658.html

 

 

 

Including into the ocean.

 

Last time to beach for Dommie // Cats at home //3 days 2 nights at Turtle Beach Resort

 

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/104321.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

More of how that was done with the cats here

 

Last Footfall in Nepal// Sharon & kitty advice // Riamfada over weekend 18-19 March

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/113583.html

 

 

Greys are not the best candidate to take outdoors for free flights. For that matter, no parrots are good candidates to do any free flight with.

I strongly urged people here not to do free flights with any kind of parrot as

FREE FLIGHT IS LIFE AND DEATH PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF UNLESS YOU DO KNOW.

NEVER EVER FREE FLY WITHOUT THE KNOWLEDGE AS THIS CAN LEAD TO LOSS AND DEATH OF YOUR BIRD.

 

Riamfada was a wild caught, and likely to be 4-5 years old when she came into my care in Oct 2008. She was very bitey , refused to step up and a frightened ball of grey.

She flew to me on cue within a couple of days. I never ever starve my birds and creatures or use that euphemism of 'weight management' as excuse.

 

Riamfada willingly do this for me, as an equal to another equal.

 

Idiot kitties // Riamfada free flights at home and outside villa

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/109794.html

 

 

 

Chile // Riamfada free flights at the edge of Rub Al Khali

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/112019.html

 

 

 

 

There are folks that advocate taking baby parrots from their parents with the idea of 'taming' them that way.

 

I MUST URGE THAT SHOULD NEVER BE DONE.

 

Who are we to deprived the fledglings of the time with their parents and deprived them of knowing that they are parrots?

To gain some imaginary advantage? To forcefully attempt that artificial imprinting into their mind at early stage?

 

Are we that weak in our self confidence that we must resort to forcefully taking parrot babies from their own parronts?

 

Because self styled 'experts' advise you to do so?

 

I am just an amateur with quaint moral values, and a student and will always remain a student.

 

When the buying stop, the selling of unweaned baby birds will stop too.

 

Yingshiong my shama above was wild caught at 3 years old and given to me at 5 years old.

Riamfada is a wildcaught as can be seen by her open quarantine ring.

 

I never trained them. Starting withTinkerbell, and then Yingshiong, and now Riamfada,

THEY WERE THE TRAINERS. I AM THEIR TRAINEE.

 

I hope you all will enjoy the photos, and the stories behind the photos.

 

DO NOT DO FREE FLIGHTS JUST BECAUSE YOU SEE THOSE PHOTOS, JUST AS YOU DO NOT DO SKY DIVING YOURSELF BECAUSE YOU SEEN PHOTOS OF PEOPLE DOING THAT.

 

If you have cats , and your cats follow you into the ocean, then perhaps you can also do free flights with your parrots too.

 

 

Warmest regards

 

Shanlung

山 龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9

[GoDiego]

Hmmmm, I'm concerned my post may have come over as in support of punishment, which is not the case at all.

 

This was not how I read your post at all Tweedle

 

Shanlung - All I can say is Wow! Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful!!! Your photos prove to me that treating any kind of creature with respect and a kind hand is the only way!

[tarm]

I do agree that from everything I have learned "punishment" does not work. Not in the way we as humans see punishment. Here is the issue and why its hard for us as humans not to get why dominance does not work or sowing who is "in charge". In human world along with most all animals (not avians) social & family environments we have a dominance structured society. There is an alpha position in each group situation. We recognize this from childhood. It is created and reinforced thru dominance etc. Its our basic organizational setup. Because of this our system of how we learn is based on this. There is always someone "in charge" and a hierarchical setup down to the lowest member. Even our government is setup in this format. There is always somone "in charge". Look at dogs, cats, bears, you name it. They all have this same basic setup. There are differences but they have more to do with recognized behavior with this environment.

 

Now enter birds. They do not usually have this hierarchical setup. They work off the flock mentality. This does not have a hierarchical setup but works off all members working together for the survival and what is best for the flock. There is no one leader.

 

The problem for us humans is from something we, as humans, tend to always do to better cope and bring it into our world of understanding called anthropomorphism (attribute human characteristics and qualities to non human beings).

 

 

Here this better explains it: The Struggle for Dominance: Fact or Fiction?

 

The old tell tale story of geese is very relevant IMO of understand there flock mentality: Lessons From The Geese

 

It seems very possible any alpha dominance behavior out side of nesting and mating our parrots demonstrate very well maybe learned behavior from us or our misguided behavior along with our misinterpretation of their behavior.

 

Shanlung,

 

I think I have seen you write more than once how you try to interact with your birds thru the eyes of more of an equal such as seen in a more equal friendship. Then using behavior they can understand in this context to illicit behavior you wish. Positive reinforcement for wanted behavior and its withholding for unwanted types.

[shanlung]

 

Shanlung,

 

I think I have seen you write more than once how you try to interact with your birds thru the eyes of more of an equal such as seen in a more equal friendship. Then using behavior they can understand in this context to illicit behavior you wish. Positive reinforcement for wanted behavior and its withholding for unwanted types.

 

I treat unwanted behaviour as if that never existed if thats not unwanted enough to warrant reaction. Just remember I am very laid back and prefer to be laid back

 

Or if that crossed the line , I lead her into new behaviours either in enriching her environment to give her new things to do and praising her like crazy for those new 'acceptable' behaviours.

 

Very bad behaviours (biting wife) will get a flare of mental anger from me and a verbal chewing off. One must remember that we are equal, even if she thinks she is more 'equal' than you.

 

They are empaths. Saying nice things to them and remaining cool and nonchalant when they bite you while you hurt like crazy is hypocritical and confused them and you continue to be bitten again and again.

 

See

Understanding the mentality of your grey

 

 

http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190599-Understanding-the-mentality-of-your-grey

 

 

I have added letters I posted elsewhere to that thread which might make additional useful reading , if you can accept my 2 cents worth.

 

Such as what I think of that excuse of terrible 2 or 3s that folks like to fall back on.

 

Warmest regards

 

Shanlung

山龍

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/