sue09 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Well, I hate to ask for help as soon as I have joined the forum, but I am just wondering if our situation can ever be reversed. I have read lots of advise on the web and actually found you while looking for help. Ollie's story began 5 years ago, when after a lot of research, I decided that a grey would be a perfect addition to our family. My partner wasn't as convinced, but was happy enough for me to go ahead. I eventually found a breeder that I felt comfortable with and we both chose Ollie and visited him a few times until he was ready to take his place as head of the household. When he came home, I spent so much time with him. We played together and learned from each other. He began to talk at around 5 months old and ended up with a huge vocabulary. I also taught him to sing Jingle Bells and we danced together. Without warning while we were playing one day, Ollie started to attack me. It was the real thing with him lunging and drawing blood!! I got him back to his cage and have never since been able to have him out or sit and play with him. He started to go only to Trevor. Although I can sit by his cage and he will only learn new words and songs from me, If I am in the room when he is out, he flies at me and attacks. We have tried all of the things suggested by various people......ie ignoring him when he does it and putting him back into his cage, but it seems to make it worse. If I walk into the room when he is with Trevor, he gets the bite and usually there is blood. I would love to have my friend back but the bites are really bad and I have arthritis in my hands.....so very painful. Any help you can offer would be great. <br><br>Post edited by: sue09, at: 2009/03/13 18:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethatgrey Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Have you taken Ollie to the vet to rule out medical causes? Has there been a physical change in your appearance that wasn't present previous. I would think back about the first time he lunged at you and try very hard to remember what happed before that. They all have their reasons for biting. It isn't always obvious but it is our responsibility to figure out why. So is he 5 years old?<br><br>Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/03/13 20:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Something changed with you that made him react this way, maybe something you wore, new perfume, earrings, or something happened that scared him that he associates you with. You will have to search back to that time to try and find out what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Also don't worry about asking for help right after joining as we wouldn't have many members if we didn't allow questions right off the bat. We have some very knowledgeable members here who will give you some answers or at least give you some insight into why he is acting this way and maybe help you to reverse it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sue09 Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks for the replies to date. Yes, Ollie is 5 years old on 4th May. Ever since this happened, both my partner and I have tried to find a reason. Ollie and I were actually sat at the table in the conservatory, which is where we often sat playing. We were playing with a small plastic ball which he loved, pushing it backwards and forwards to each other. I remember that i had the ball and went to push it to him and he lunged and drew blood from my hand. I really can't think of anything that was different......no hair changes or anything. We have had him checked by the vet on a regular basis and vet says he's healthy. I was in the house on my own at the time, so wasn't anything anyone else did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycos_mom Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Did anything happen like him falling and you running over to see if he was okay. Sometime we are so quick to help when our birds get hurt but its one of the worst things we can do. when a bird is afaid or hurt because of a fall and we rush to help instink kicks in and real or not they sence we are the pretetor trying to get them and they will become quite phobic towards you. this can be changed with love and patients but its not easy You have to start from scratch rebuilding his trust. I don't know if anything like this might have happened but try to think about everything that went on aroud that time and then we will be able to help you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sallas Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Greys often can "bond" to one person and get aggressive with other people that threaten their time with their bonded friend. Greys can also switch who their bonded person is. It may also have something to do with him hitting sexual maturity, How long ago did the first bite start? Could it be that their mating season is coming soon and he is protecting his "mate"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sue09 Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Hi again. Literally, the only thing that I can think of was that the ball fell off the table and I jumped to pick it up...but I wouldn't think that could have frightened him.......could it? This happened over two years ago so Ollie was about 2 1/2 years old. At the time it happened, he didn't have any real contact with my partner, he spent all his time with me. From that day, however, Trevor has been the only one he will allow to put his food in the cage or do anything for him. I still try every day and as long as I don't get too close he is ok. I wonder if it was a maturity thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sallas Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Well, greys hit sexual maturity at about 5 years of age, so if this happened two years ago, I do not think that it is a maturity thing. I have read that CAGs tend to bond to one person while TAGs are a little more acceptable of a couple people. It may be just as simple as he switch who he was bonded with. When you first got Ollie, did your partner not interact with him much? And then at some point did he start interacting with Ollie more? Maybe when your partner started interacting with Ollie more, Ollie decided that was who he wanted to bond to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaxtersMom Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 That is very strange and I sympathize with your situation. It must heartbreaking to you to have a great relationship one day, then get the cold "beak" the next day. I couldn't even guess what triggered this and won't try but can tell you about our experience with our grey. We took him in at the age of 12 years so he was not a baby. He bonded with me and my husband very well after the first few weeks. Both of us could touch him, play with him, feed him and I didn't feel my Baxter was a one person bird at all. Then one day it was over for my husband. He is not longer able to pick him up for anything. He did not do anything out of the ordinary that I can think of. He loved Baxter as much as I did. Anyway, one day he went to pick Baxter up and put him in his cage. Baxter stepped up, looked at his hand and bit down hard and did not let go!! It was a planned attack/bite. It drew blood and I know was painful for my husband. He tried the next day to have him step up on him and it was the same reaction. Baxter stepped up nicely, zeroed in on hubbys hand and bit the tar out of him again. Needless to say, my husband did not want to pick him after the second time. He still would be able to pet him, give head scratches, feed him and everything normal except handle him. Fast forward about 4 months. My husband (with my encouragement) went to bring Baxter to me from another room. I figured enough time had went by and they do get along. Long story, Baxter willingly stepped up on my husband hand, then BAM! He bit him in the same aggressive way. I thought enough time had went by that Baxter might have forgotten about it but this was not the case. I don't know why his behavior changed like it did but it changed and although my husband has a very good relationship with him as long as he does not ask him to step up on him. Before that first time, my husband could do anything. Only thing I can think of is Baxter is a one person bird and he has chosen me. I am very interested in this behavior though and hope things can get better for you and Ollie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethatgrey Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I can't remember where I read this but I do remember reading that as an african grey matures they will often turn against the person who is closest to them and bond with another person even if they weren't necessarily close to the 2nd person in the first place. The reason being that the african grey knows instinctively that it is time to go search for a lifemate.... and they can't have that relationship with the person they were already close with for that would be somewhat incestuous. Something to do with ensuring the survival and procreation of the species. Kind of like a a rite of passage. Very often it's just something the parrot owner has to accept, understand and respect. I'm not sure if this is the case with your situation or if there is anything that can be done. Unfortunately alot of grey get rehomed because of this lack of preparation or knowledge of the owner. I'd have to go through my literature. As I write this I it occurs to me that our parrots probably don't see us as human beings but more as extension of themselves. Haven't really been preoccupied with any of this because Emma is just a year old. Sorry for being so long winded.:blush: Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/03/13 23:55 Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/03/13 23:57 Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/03/13 23:58<br><br>Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/03/13 23:58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sue09 Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Thanks all for your replies. I looks like I might not be able to do anything then. It really is a shame as my partner really doesn't have the time for him and that means that he isn't getting the close attention that I think he deserves. I used to have him out of his cage for hours at a time. Now he is lucky to get half an hour with my partner. Well, if anyone else thinks of anything I can try, I would be really grateful.:kiss: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Have you considered trimming his wings to reduce his air attacks? Perhaps allowing him to climb out on his cage to hang out while you are in the next room, or nearby would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 If this happened at 2 1/2 years old and Ollie is 5, that started over 2 years ago. So you've been in this disturbing behavior by Ollie for all that time? Not getting anymore out of cage time as you describe is really exacerbating the problem, I would think. When he is out of the cage, does he just keep attacking you until put back? If you let him out of his cage, will he happily sit on a stand or on top of his cage and enjoy the "Yard" time? When he attacks and bites as you describe, does he bite more than once or bite and fly? After 2 years of this, it is a behaviour deeply ingrained now that is going to take a lot of work to get under control. You say when he is with Trevor, Trevor gets bitten when you enter the room? Does Ollie interact with Trevor on a personal level that includes touching, scratches, sitting on him and preening etc? It is entirely possible that Ollie switch to Trevor being the favored. It is also possible that due to the limited amount of one on one time he gets with Trevor, is "Ollie's" time with him, and when you enter the room, he feels threatened by possible loss of attention and reacts with the biting and attacking. I would suspect with more out of cage time for Ollie to spend with Trevor, like 3 or 4 hours a day. Your threat of taking his precious time away may not pose as much a threat and the bad behaviour would become minimized over time and things would settle down to a flock living together harmoniously as they live in the wild with their life mates by their side. I feel for you and commend you for living with this behaviour for so long and continuing to provide Ollie with a good and loving home. :-)<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2009/03/15 15:00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nychsa Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'm certainly no grey expert and I can really only provide information relative to my own experiences, but I can share this with you: Bella, my CAG is going to be 2 on May 14 this year. Recently she's really started to get very head strong about things. She considers the center island in the kitchen "hers" (that's where I make her food) and when I have friends over, she will "defend" that space by lunging at people and attempting to bite them. When she does that I get right into her little face and tell her "NO BITE!" and tell her to step up on my finger for a "time out". She's bitten me pretty good when I make her step up, drawing blood too, but I didn't react and persisted in enforcing my rules. It took a few tries, but she's knocked that kind of stuff off as of two days ago (not to say she's not going to do it again). Then when I'm working, and she wants me to play with her, she can get very impatient if I don't comply. She's jumped on to my shoulder and ripped my glasses off my face. She's also just jumped on to my shoulder and bit me in the cheek. When she does that, I will nab her and again, put her on a perching spot and I make sure she sees I am MUCH bigger than she is and I show her I am very unhappy with her by making a scowl :angry: and tell her "NO BITE"! and then she gets put into time out. I keep her in time out for about 30 minutes. Usually after that she wants to be lovey and "make good", she sits with me and tucks her head under my chin. To me, it seems she's testing her limits with me, trying to figure out which one of us is in charge. I've read so many different opinions on whether or not parrots do this kind of thing. Some articles say they do others say they don't. I can only go by my own experience, and that is she does seem to be trying to establish the "pecking order" and she wants to see if I really do deserve to be at the top of that order. I have no intention of giving up my top--bird spot and we're going to get that one straight no matter how much she thinks she can bite me! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sue09 Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 Hi there, Please don't think that we haven't tried to address the behaviour in the last 2 1/2 years. I have been to many forums and tried so many different strategies....also have been very patient. The problem with Trevor is that he isn't in the house for 3 or 4 hours a day. He takes Ollie out for about an hour a day, which is really the most he can manage, otherwise it's past Ollie's bedtime. He does interact well with Trevor with lots of touching etc. You asked if he bites more than once and the answer is yes. Sometimes it's bite and fly, but more often bite and bite. I do let Ollie out when I am on my own and if I am in the room with him, he is constantly 'pinning' me if that is the right term and whenever I'm within distance he bites. This then becomes a huge problem when I need to go out. He can be very inquisitive and if I leave him out he might get hurt. getting him back to his cage is almost impossible without my hands and arms being in shreds. I have tried the harsh looks..pushing back to unsteady him and having treats in my hand. I love Ollie and he's not going anywhere...but get so frustated that he could have so much more quality time if he would just calm down a little. Once he is in the cage, he will interact beautifully with me and even let me spoon feed him. Would having another bird companion help. Trevor has said noas he feels if the newcomer also didn't like me, he wouldn't want to be responsible for two greys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Oh, I didn't really think you had done nothing to address the situation for 2 years. I was just asking to get some more background information and specifics. :-) The multiple bite obviously means he means business and wants to hurt you bad, not just warn you. Thats why I asked that question. Is Ollie clipped? I assume he is since you mention IF you are within range he will attack. I also assume when you say he is "Pinning You", you mean his eyes are pinning as he watches you, which id the correct description if so. The only way to resolve the issue of getting him back in the cage when you need to leave or go to bed. Would be to use a perch, which I assume you have tried and it does not work at all. It amazes me that he interacts with you at a completely different level when in his cage, even to the point of of spoon feeding. Thats a clue, but at this point, I don't have any idea what that is. You love him tons to put up with this, try to figure it out and even after 2 years, still say he is not going anywhere. It is inspiring to hear that type of love and responsibility going on for one of our Avian friends. :-) ON the topic of getting another bird as a companion, it is a double edged sword. You just do not know how it would work out. They may hate each other, they may like each other, but the question would still remain of whether it would help your present relationship with Ollie. I doubt adding another bird will help. It would then be a competitor requiring your time, as you described. It would also add another dynamic to the mix that would further complicate finding the solution that works in getting Ollie back to a manageable Grey you may not have a cuddly relationship with, but at least one of mutual respect and harmony at a distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'd like to know what other more experienced members think about freebird's suggestion to have him clipped. Ollie could have more time outside the cage, but he would be more dependent and less able to attack you. Obviously the end goal would be to have him fully flighted again, but you have to establish yourself as the boss. Have you done research on bird behavourist web sites like http://www.goodbirdinc.com/ Karma to you for your patience and love for Ollie. So many greys end up being re-homed when this type of thing happens. The fact that you're out looking for answers after 2 years of being bitten . . .Ollie's lucky to have you, even if he doesn't seem to know it right now;) oh, p.s if you do one day decide to try clipping him, make sure he doesn't associate either of you with the clip, and be sure someone who really really knows what they are doing does it, as a bad clip can lead to all sorts of trouble. Good luck with solving your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sue09 Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 Hi, Just wanted to share this as it is quite exciting for me. Today, Ollie was in the room with me (out of his cage) for over two hours without attacking. He even let me get close enough to play with him on his play stand and take a photo. I did have a warning or two from him when I ventured too close but he didn't try to fly at me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Sue, Ollie is a handsome grey. It looks like your patience and perseverance will win through. Fingers crossed for you!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Congrats Sue for the progress so far, this is great news, you are making small steps but it means a lot, keep up the great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethatgrey Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 What a handsome fellow and kudos to you for all of your patience, understanding and persistance with him. I am not in your situation at the moment... but it is bound to happen at some point I guess:unsure: . All I can think of is "stick training" which I have already started with my grey when she is on top of her cage because she gets a little bit cocky.<br><br>Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/03/29 22:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Glad to hear there's progress! Patience really pays off with these guys. Ollie's a cutie, and worth every moment you work with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summerc25 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I am glad to hear that Sue. I hope this means he is starting to come back around to you He is gorgeous btw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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