Controversial - Do they know right/wrong?

[danmcq]

This is something that I have considered a long while. There are books and web articles out there, that claim a bird or other animal does not understand punishment or correction and do not have feelings.

 

Please understand, when I say punishment. I do not mean any form of physical contact with a bird or animal. I mean purely negative feedback for bad/wrong things and positive feedback for good/right things.

 

Having had animals and birds throughout my life. I know I have seen critters demeanor change when they are corrected/punished or feel happy/sad. They lower their head in shame, eyes look sullen etc.

 

Versus when they have done something good and are praised. They "Light Up". You can see the body language change, the eyes, perhaps a little dance of vocalization etc.

 

What instigated this topic. Is having not only an intelligent creature, but one that can talk with full knowledge of what the words mean. Gives us tons of feedback we can not glean from a non verbal critter.

 

Last night, Kim was washing her face with Dayo on her back, as always. However, last night evidently he became impatient and gave her a good "Pinch" in the back of the neck. She raised up forcing him to walk up to her shoulder, got him to step up and promptly carried him over to the bed, sat him down and said "NO BITE, Bad Bird!!".

 

She then walked back over and started washing her face again. Dayo flew immediately to perch on a door top directly behind Kim and LOUDLY announced "NO BITE....SORRY!". He then sat up there until she was finished. The flew to her shoulder and gave her a kiss.

 

This is the first time he has ever said "sorry". We have never heard him say it before. The only thing I can reason out on this. Is that when that Dog incident happened that changed Dayo for 5 Days. I was VERY emotional at times, while gently talking to him, crying sometimes, trying to get him to respond with something that would tell me the old Dayo was still in there. I was of course emotional over Kim's being in the Hospital also.

 

I would always say "I am so sorry Dayo". Many times, sometimes with tears, and I would see him looking closely and deeply into my eyes. I just have this feeling that he not only could see the sorrow in my eyes, but also "Felt" the intensiveness of what I was feeling inside.

 

I have no other explanation than he clearly understood what "Sorry" means and used it correctly to let Kim know he was sorry for his wrong action.

[sandra902]

i completely believe our little ones know right from wrong. i think in their world it is simpler in that it is what pleases or displeases us.

 

merlin will correct himself when he bites the curtains. he really seems to like the payoff (gooood booooy) when he turns away from temptation. he will also reward himself with a good boy when he corrects himself.

 

a joy and a wonder every day. how fortunate we are!

[spookyhurst]

I wish Nikko were like that! She wants to do what she wants to do, and really doesn't care if I think it's good or bad. While she can be a total sweetheart a lot of the time, she is totally unrepentant when she is naughty.

 

Sometimes I watch Super Nanny, and I find her techniques for naught children transfer quite well to a naughty bird :silly:. Birds really are like lifelong toddlers.

[Dave007]

There's a big difference concerning right and wrong with animals. The animals that don't know right from wrong are the wild animals. Parrots are wild animals, will always be wild animals and right and wrong hasn't been instilled as far as behavior goes. That can only happen if we interfere in their natural traits which I hope will never happen to parrots or othe wild animals. Any human words that a parrot will say come from human beings and those words are said in assocation with actions from the owner. Some parrots have the ability to put words together which seems to match a present situation. Greys aren't the only birds that do that. Animals that do understand right from wrong are domesticated. At one time there were wolves and in a pack there was no right or wrong. The members of the pack simply followed a routine that was put into place by an alpha wolf. If a wolf strayed from that routine the rest would put it in place. This type of behavior happened most frequently during feeding time. Through years and years of man's interference concerning the breeding of certain other animals eventually cause an animal who finally understood right from wrong but these same animals lost the ability to return to the wild. This same type of routine happens with other animals in the wild such as elephants, members of the feline groups, reptiles and others.

It's been said over and over that a wild animal such as a parrot can't be punished because they simply don't know they did wrong. What makes them react badly to people is the fact that people aren't acting like how the members of a flock would behave in the wild in certain situations.

If a wild animal actually knew right from wrong it would eventually stop doing things that annoy owners. The reason that that doesn't happen is because parrots are creatures of habit and repetition. A bird will eventually repeat something that's being said or at the time it's occuring or just before it's occuring or just after it's occurred.

If a bird climbs out of a cage and decides to walk down to the floor and you spot the bird doing this just as it's starting it's descent, you go over to the bird and put the bird back in the cage while saying something like( hypothetically) * Oh no, back to the cage*, eventually, that bird will do the exact same thing but there will be a small difference---the bird will immediately repeat what the person says at the start of the descent making it much easier for a person to spot that behavior. Does the bird know it's doing something wrong?

A trait that they are familiar with--fear. They will stay away from whatever made them fearful be it at home or in the wild for a short amount of time, but that bird will never apologise. It simply goes back into it's routine.

A domestic animal will apologise and try to get back into the person's good graces.

If words are done in the question mark fashion such as * do you want some oatmeal?*, eventually the bird associates the sound of boiling water and repeats the same thing in the question form knowing that the next step is getting oatmeal.

If a well taken care of parrot spots an opening through a door or window, that parrot is gone even if the person has told the parrot over and over that going to that window is bad. Does the bird know it's doing something wrong? The overpowering natural instinct of the bird is pulling him towards the outdoors. Breeding the wild out of a bird hasn't yet happened.

If a person has a dog that gets out and takes off, that person has a much better chance of getting that dog back because it's now in an environment that's uncomfortable and will be nearby. That's because it's been bred out of them.

Look at a german shepherd and a wolf--very similar dogs. That wolf can never become a cadaver or drug sniffing animal even if a person has actually managed to get a wolf as a puppy and raised it.

We have the ability to look into an animal's face and think we can read it's feelings. It's only us that can do that with a wild animal.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/01/20 20:12

[she]

I cant say for sure if animals know right from wrong, I can without doubt say they know are emotions and react to them.I cant count the times I have been witness to this with many different types of animals. I would say of animals I have owned,a horse I had called Dulcie was probabley the most in tune with me with Charlie my grey being a very close second. Charlie does appear to know if he is doing wrong, he will look at me to see if I am watching him before he takes off for a forbiden perch or has a sly nip if I am not giving him attention.

He will say ah ah when he is being naughty and a very exagerated GOOD BOOOOY when he is flying back to his cage.So maybe they do have a perseption of right and wrong.

I love the idea of using some of supernannys methods for our parrots. I am right now deciding on using a naughty step or naughty perch.

[danmcq]

Dave - This is I believe the only occasion I Have to disagree with you.

 

You Wrote:

 

"It's been said over and over that a wild animal such as a parrot can't be punished because they simply don't know they did wrong."

 

I know that has been stated several times along with the statement that they just mimic and do not understand by the historical scientific community.

 

They were proven wrong by Dr. Pepperberg and Alex, along with the signing Ape Etc. These wild animals do understand us if brought up and taught in our environment. In my opinion.

 

"What makes them react badly to people is the fact that people aren't acting like how the members of a flock would behave in the wild in certain situations.

If a wild animal actually knew right from wrong it would eventually stop doing things that annoy owners."

 

I disagree with this also. We humans with all our self perceived brilliance, make conscious decisions to the defy and not obey our parents, law enforcement etc. based on what we have come to conclusions on, whether those individuals think we are right or wrong. Defiance is also seen in the wild.

 

The wild critters of all kinds have rules if members of their flock, pack. pod etc. wish to remain in good standing. If one or more start misbehaving, they are forced out of the group or just harshly attacked and sometimes killed due to be a rebel. The lucky ones make it out alive and go else as a hermit or find another group that MAY except or spend the remaining days in isolation alone.

 

This is seen in the wild constantly. The have what they consider good and bad behaviour along with rules each group member is expected to follow.

 

It is no huge leap or surprising to find, that when a critter is raised in a human enviroonment, that they start understanding what we consider good conduct. They also still have a mind of their own, just as we humans and sometimes elect to NOT follow some of the rules. They know when they are bad or misbehaving from what I have seen. They also know when they have been bad and receive punishment in the form of being placed back in the cage, walked away from

 

Dayo had never used the term "Sorry" before and the one time thus far was used appropriately and had nothing to do with mimicking. If he wants water, he will ask water, if he wants an apple and you have offered him a carrot, he will refuse and tell you "Apple!!". There is no doubt in my mind, that these critters are thinking on there feet and know how to communicate correctly.

 

I know you don't agree with me either. But, that's what having free speech and opinions is all about. :-)

 

I can't believe I am actually disagreeing with you this once, but I am. I still think tons of you thoughts, expert advice and opinions though!!

[Dave007]

Disagreement is what makes for interesting conversations. That should be happening here much more often.

But I'll forgive you.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/01/20 20:53

[Janfromboone]

O.K. I almost agree with both of you -- if that's possible. When I sat down to check my Email and Grey Forum just now, Tobie was on my shoulder. He immediately started picking at my sweater. I fussed at him and slapped the table saying "No!! Don't do that." He did what he always does - Waved his head around like it was a game and started picking at my sweater with renewed gusto. One point for Dave. This time I covered my shoulder with my hand and said "No!! Stop it, stop it, stop it!! He did his kung foo birdie impersonation by corkscrewing his neck and grabbed my finger - playfully and when I moved my hand he chewed my sweater yet again. I put him on the back of the computer chair which is apholstered but covered with an old throw and he started chewing loudly on the throw - each time I said No! Stop that!! I went across the room and got a wooden chair and sat him on it and - you guessed it- in a moment I hear crunching of wood. I said N0!!! YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHEW EVERYTHING TO BITS!! TOBIES NOT A BAD BIRD. Tobies a good bird!! For what ever reason he looked at me like something about what I said was important. He stopped chewing the chair and when I turned to look at him he was leaning toward me like he wanted back on my shoulder and I put him there and that was 10-15 minutes ago and he's still not chewing my sweater. One point for Dan.:laugh:

[Lyric]

It is certainly an interesting topic. I tend to believe that the birds in our care do learn what is right/wrong in our eyes. They eventually get the fact that if they bite too hard they will get a time out and a very unhappy human. They see the consequences of their actions and have to weigh in their minds whether the action is worth the consequence. They probably do not understand what makes something right or wrong but I think they are experts at judging our reactions and respond to this accordingly. I think the example with Dayo is a good one and I truly do think he was sorry he had upset his Kim and wanted her to not be unhappy with him. They may still be wild animals but they do develop quite a level of understanding about the humans they live with. Sometimes Lyric looks at me with such deep intensity- I know we have a connection that grows deeper with time.

[redkim]

Right and Wrong are an ambiguous concept, anthropomorphic if you will. What is 'right' and allowed in my house may very well be considered 'wrong' in yours. Same with groups of animals, horses teach their foals a form of horse 'etiquette' if you will where the young ones learn how to act properly within their own herd dynamic. If they go to another herd this dynamic that they know may not work and they have to learn a new one.

All our animals do is learn the rules of where they live. I would not term this as knowing right from wrong but a simple reasoning and memory that a past action resulted in a particular response that they would either like to repeat or would not.

And sometimes even though the animal has been taught something is 'wrong' i.e. a dog getting into the trash can, the reward of the forbidden behavior supercedes the reaction/punishment it knows will come later.

Humans are no different than animals in this aspect I think. Animals may be harsher and seem to not have respect for life but I think they have more of a respect for life than humans. Some will kill one of their own for not conforming therefore making their species stronger and not diluted by mutations or aberrant behavior. And you don't see predators killing for the sheer joy of it - they simply kill to eat. Humans can become so caught up with preserving everything and playing 'God' to a point that it actually backfires and can cause greater problems.<br><br>Post edited by: redkim, at: 2009/01/21 02:52

[Titch]

I don't think that the animals know right and wrong, they realise what makes us happy and when they have upset us once they have carried out an action which we aren't happy with.

 

Birds are flock animals, they want to join in with us and be part of the "crew" as such. When they do something wrong, they don't get the positive attention that they crave from us.. just as we crave fun and positive attention from them. When we upset them, they bite us or scream and therefore we modify our behaviour accordingly.

 

So in a way, I don't think that they know when they're about to do something wrong that's a "new" wrong behaviour ie something we haven't trained them not to do already.. but more they understand when we are upset by something they have done.

[DavidH]

Morality in non-human animals is a tricky issue. We human animals have evolved morality from adaptations relating to sharing, cooperating, nurturing, protecting, defending, empathy, etc.

 

If morality is in us, its biological roots have to be in other animals.

 

There are some good books that touch on questions of morality in animals (right v. wrong) and even spirituality. I recommend the work of Marc Bekoff, Frans de Waal, Lesley Rogers, Peter Singer, and others.

 

For me, the best way to understand the capacity for morality is to look closely at the emotional responses of animals. Animals in the wild do feel emotions like sorrow, loneliness, joy, fear, anger, contentment, caring (love?) Animals understand other animals' expectations. Social animals like wolves, parrots, gorillas and elephants are deeply involved in relationships, often lifelong, which suggest a life of subtle and intense feelings.

 

Regret may be hard to demonstrate ("I'm sorry"), but the emotions of sorrow, frustration, relief, happiness from achievement, even embarrassment, etc. may be a lot easier, and these feelings are related to regret. Eventually, we'll know enough about biochemistry to measure emotion in animals better.

 

Bottom line: My sense is that if you really study what an animal feels, the question of morality won't even come up.

 

I've blogged on some of these issues with some links to expert opinion.

[LisaM]

Jan - my take on the sweater chewing...

 

Initially, when on your shoulder he was chewing on your sweater. Your saying "no, don't do that" was actually reinforcing it with attention. The second time was reinforcing also with the attention of the hand and same words (the words don't matter, the attention does). All of the subsequent behaviors were reinforced by attention also. The last, with a sterner voice and probabably some "stink eyes" go to along with it, caught his attention enough to distract him from the chewing. If you had gone over and picked him up from the wooden chair that MAY have reinforced that chewing on it would get him picked up (but who knows). By picking him up after he stopped chewing and when he was being quiet and looking at you nicely, you reinforced that he will more likely get attention that way.

 

Sorry, long and windy.

 

Here are my thoughts on the topic:

 

I do believe that my birds have learned that some things are naughty, but they periodically have gotten attention for them ("QUIET", "stop that", etc), so they will still periodically do them(and now Kenya yells QUIET to the others so she's reinforcing any screaming too...don't know what to do about that one!). They know it makes us unhappy, but the fact that they can sometimes get attention for it outweighs it. In order to curb these behaviors we have to be much more consistent in ignoring them or preventing them from occurring in the first place. I believe those are really the only ways to stop undesireable behavior.

 

I don't think they can anticipate consequences unless they are immediate and repeated, except maybe in the case of a fearful situation.

 

I don't believe they inherently know right from wrong, but I do believe they can generalize from one situation to another similar, but somewhat different, situation.

 

Just my two cents. I think I fall somewhere between Dave and Dan on this one...:woohoo:

 

Lisa

[danmcq]

This is turning in to a great topic, with all the input, comments and thoughts on this.

 

I too agree with all that this is not a right or wrong knowledge, as others of have said. It is more along the emotional lines which drive all human core reasons for doing what we may think is right or wrong in each of our isolated thoughts and patterns.

 

These are ingrained in each of us as we grow from infancy to maturity and are molded, for the most part, by the family and friends we grow up with.

 

I believe the same can be said of any critter and it's up bringing and future groups, families etc. it encounters throughout it's life.

 

I also thought the comment that the "reward" will supercede the negative consequences, was a great observation and is true from humans to all other living creatures on this planet. Each one individually has a weakness or fondness, if you will, that brings a pleasurable sense that is worth the negative consequences once found out.

 

If you think about it, we are all wild to an extent. Look at a child that has been reared by an animal. It acts like the animal and does not have what we consider "Human" normal behaviour or capabilities. I believe it is only one generation from being what we may consider being Human, to being a savage. basic survival instincts are in each and every living thing. It is, I would suggest, at the very reptilian stem of our brains.

 

Keep the great thoughts and comments coming. I find this intriguing to say the least.

 

Oh and Dave - Thanks for forgiving me my Brother. :-)

[DavidH]

Yes, it is an interesting topic, Dan.

 

Even though we on the Forum are a community of humans and parrots who talk, one important thing to keep in mind with animals is that they don't really possess full-blown human language -- not even Alex.

 

A 1000-word vocabulary and the concepts of shape, color and number are astounding, but parrots and the Great Apes don't have a powerful human-type syntax -- just a rudimentary receptiveness to learn to comprehend and communicate in symbols (see also the chimpanzee Nim Chimsky and others).

 

In other words, no parrot is conducting an interior monologue the way we humans do at all waking moments. No parrot can understand if we ask her, "What do you want for your birthday?" or tell her, "If you pick up all your toys and put them in a neat pile, I'll share my banana with you."

 

It's very debatable whether parrots have a "theory of mind". How much of a notion of "self" they have is also unclear (see mirror self-image tests for elephants, apes, dolphins, etc.)

 

I certainly don't mean to underestimate the intelligence of our darlings. They are clearly among the smartest animals on the planet, but I think it's their feelings and their bonding to us that tell us most about their inner lives.

 

Through their words and behavior we may get glimpses of their sense (or lack) of feelings of fairness, cooperation, empathy -- which are the biological foundations of altruism and morality-- but the really marvelous and mysterious thing is their range and depth of emotion, expressed in extraordinary connectedness to us.

 

People who expect their parrots to be "good" by human values may miss how GREAT they are as parrots. Parrots are not "bad" if they appear to be jealous, selfish, stingy, aggressive, dirty or unfriendly. They're not "good" when they're cuddly, sociable and obedient. They're just parrots being parrots.

[LisaM]

DavidH wrote:

People who expect their parrots to be "good" by human values may miss how GREAT they are as parrots.

 

David - this is about the best and simplest statement I have ever read regarding parrots/behavior. I love it!

 

Lisa

[danmcq]

What a great post David. I agree with everything you said.

 

No matter how human like any creature may seem in human terms. They are still the a parrot, dog, cat etc. and do what comes naturally to them. Displaying all the uniqueness, attributes, glory and splendor peculiar to themselves. That's what keeps this planet with all it critters a never ending journey of wonder.

[DavidH]

Thanks Dan and Lisa,

 

I'm going to try to blog today about animal rights. One of the excuses people give for denying animals rights is that rights are only for persons, i.e., "moral agents."

[she]

David that post summs it up perfectley.I have always maintained that although I adore my grey and he is spoilt rottten, he is and always will be a parrot first. I believe that goes a long long way to keeping them happy and content in our unnatural environment.

[Goralka08]

We haven't had Kenzie long enough to know if she can feel our emotions, but I'm sure we'll see one day.

 

But I can say that our dogs are DEEPLY connected with us and they just know when we're down in the dumps. If I'm sad and just sitting on the couch with a tear rolling down my check, our shar-pei named Millie will jump on the couch and literally put her arms around my neck to give a hug, while pressing her face against mine. Then she tries to give kisses to make us feel better. We've had her since she was 8 weeks old and she will be 7 this year.

 

I think a lot of domestic animals can sense what we're feeling.

[danmcq]

Well, Dayo displayed anger very obviously just a few minutes ago.

 

He was laying on his side, inside a cardboard box turned on it's side, playing with a 2 inch ball with a Bell in it he loves to attack.

 

Dayo had ripped a few pieces off the box and Jake (Conure) decided to fly in and grab a piece of cardboard about 6 inches away. Dayo came out of that box like a bat out of hell, Jake took off, then dayo followed flying like a screaming maniac after Jake as he went flying a few round through the house.

 

There is no doubt that Dayo was angry. :evil:

 

Here's a few links to topics David referenced in his comments:

 

http://www.avalon5.com/science-and-technology/science/what-have-elephants-dolphins-humans-great-apes-got-in-common/

 

http://villageofjoy.com/the-smartest-animals-in-the-world/<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2009/01/23 20:08

[Nychsa]

Greetings everyone,

 

What a great topic Dan! We just moved to our home in VA, so I missed what happened with the Dog, but it sounds dreadful! Hugs to you and your wife and I hope all is well now.

 

Re: the topic area - I have to say I disagree with Dave as well.

 

Dave I think you're over simplyfying the range of experiences animals could potentially be having. With that said, I may be stating something I can't prove LOL! Either way, I don't think any of us have any imperical evidence as to what animals are truely experiencing, so it's more or less up to our interpretations IMHO.

 

However, for me, it would be hard for me to believe that Bella simply "reacts" to some stimuli. For example, lately she's really had it in for Jiggy, my conure. Aside from the fact that she gets quite annoyed if he perches on my shoulder (she promptly chases him off) over the past two days we've run into situations that really stumped me:

 

One of my dogs had an "accident" at the door (which was shut while I was at work). When I came home, I said "oh my, who did this!" and Bella promptly pipes up "Jiggy make a poo" After I was done laughing, I couldn't believe that she persisted in trying to blame the offense on Jiggy!

 

Tonight she chased Jiggy off his playtop and into his cage. As if that weren't enough, she then took flying leeps on to cage door. Initially I thought she was trying to land on the door and didn't like the landing spot or something, but then I realized, she was shutting the cage door on him!!! It took about three tries, but she managed to close the cage door on him (without locking it) and then she got on to his playtop and leaned over and said to him "BAD BOY, NO NO!!!! SHHHHHHT!"

 

Ok ... how on earth is that simply some reaction to a stimuli???? She WANTED to lock him up and then scold him! She has issues with Jiggy and they are not simple what ever they are!

 

Cheers!

Terri

[danmcq]

Hi Terri!

 

Boy is Bella a thorough thinker. Lets see, when Mom gets home, I'll blame Jiggy for the Dog mess and she will get rid of him for sure. :-)

 

The Cage door and scolding of Jiggy is another display of conscious thought and purpose.

 

I must add reading this episode of the Bella and Jiggy show was definitely great entertainment. Don't you wish we could capture these events on video?

 

Thanks for posting another good example of conscious though, purpose and of course the underlying jealousy and hate that is driving it. :-)

 

I have the same issue between Dayo and Jake. Jake being the social lover of all as most new world Parrots are. With Dayo being the species flock together only group of old world parrots.

[Nychsa]

Hi there Dan!

 

After I ad written that post, I forgot to share something else I find really interesting. When Bella gets into something I usually say "No, no! sssshttt, go!" and then if she persists I say (this is from scolding my kids in German LOL!) "du, du, du, du, du!".

 

I also say "no bite!"

 

Well, when Bella is perched on my shoulder and my ear touches her and it startles her she jumps on to the front of my shirt and says "ssssht! no, no, no!!!!" In the mean time, if anyone does something she doesn't approve of she tells them "no, no, no, sssssht!!!! du du du!". That is whether the dog gets on th couch, or wags his/her tail too hard and gets too close to her, or Jigygy of course just takes a breath and she scolds him! Either way, she uses that to expess when she doesn't like something - and I think that's great

[danmcq]

LOL Nyscha, aren't all the words and descriptions for events, actions and items we associate to them funny when we hear them back in the correct context?

 

I laugh at Dayo also everytime he uses them when something happens. :-)

 

I wish more would chime in with their stories and comments on how their Grey(s) illustrates correct context usage and the emotions etc. bring correctly displayed.

 

I know most of us do not need scientific studies to agree with what we already know. ;-)

 

It does seem the present generation of scientists are saying "Ah Ha" critters really do have feeling s and are self aware.

 

I personally do not believe the mirror test is a good test of whether a critter is "Self Aware". Some look, yawn and know thats themselves in the mirror and do not pay much attention to it. Others react by checking themselves out and making sure they look good today. ;-)