Purposefully disobedient bird?

[wildmike556]

My 10 year old CAG Rascal seems to be trying to prove a point with me lately. I've pretty much trained her to poop on command when I have a paper towel handy, and while that doesn't stop her from going on her own if I forget to ask periodically, she is normally very good about following my command.

 

More and more often when I ask her to go she just sits there and ignores me, even when I'm absolutely sure she has to go. For example this morning I took her out and sat there for 20 minutes repeatedly asking her like an idiot to "Go poop, Rascal!" in the nicest voice I could but she just wouldn't do it. As soon as I gave up and carried her across the room she dropped all that nastiness right on my carpet.

 

Quite often if I give up asking her to go I'll just put her back in her cage only to hear a plop on the cage bottom not a minute later.

 

There have been no changes around the house and we normally get along extremely well, except for when it comes to the whole poop thing.

 

I'm at my wits end, and really don't want to get angry with her. What can I do?:huh:

[Anmlhggr]

Hehe. Truth be told, I personally have no idea as I'm still working my ends and outs with bird ownership but....wanted to let you know this makes me laugh!

 

Maybe she refuses so that you WILL put her back in the cage? Does she like to come out?

[wildmike556]

She normally loves to come out, but it's not just the cage. She'll go right after I stop asking if I put her on my shoulder or the couch, too.

 

It's like she's trying to say "You're not the boss of me - I'll go when I want!"

 

Well sorry bird, but I need to be the boss in this case or I'll be cleaning up 10 spots a day like before I got ya trained.

[Kaedyn]

When taking her out of her cage, try moving her to a perch or playstand, then asking her to poop. Give her a bit to do her thing and then ask again. If she doesn't do anything after the third try, start to walk away. As she sees that she's about to be left out, she'll likely do her business. That's most likely what's happening when you place her back in her cage. As soon as she does as she's told, praise her and ask her to step-up, so that she understands that she gets what she wants when you get what you want.

[Christina]

I would try reverting back to giving her a treat when she does what you want. I don't know if that is how you initially trained her but, giving her new found stubborness, I might try rewarding her for doing your bidding. No point in getting into a pissing match with your AG....if she is like mine, I will always lose, so I just need to outsmart her. Which is often a challenge. Let us know how it goes.

[Dave007]

You're giving your bird too much credit. Birds aren't **purposefully disobedient**. Obstinate, yes. They also don't try to **prove a point** You're talking about fecal matter here. When a bird has to go, it will. Nature is telling a wild animal that it has to do that. You tried for 20 minutes then walked away with her and she immediately dropped a load on your carpet. You think she did that on purpose? Well, if you had waited 23 minutes, that wouldn't have happened but of course you didn't know that. You might be having tremendous luck by arriving with that paper towel just before she goes but it's just luck, not a science.

"""I'm at my wits end, and really don't want to get angry with her. """

A person really shouldn't get mad at any bird just because he/she doesn't drop it's poop where a person wants that bird to go on command.

"""that doesn't stop her from going on her own if I forget to ask periodically, she is normally very good about following my command."""

It's a good thing that she went on her own because for a bird, it's not natural to hold droppings until a command is given.

I'm against potty training because of this and many other reasons that cause problems. In the end, it's the bird's fault for not adhering to the so called science of potty training.

What about the people who have a bird that's out of the cage all day? You think there's a designated area that the bird will go to every time it has to drop fecal matter? Some birds do that but many don't.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/09/23 22:03

[wildmike556]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I will try the playstand method for now and see if it helps.

I might try a treat here and there as well, but I never used treats in the first place. I trained her to the point she is now by praising her every time she went anywhere, and gradually changed to only praising her when she went over the paper towel.

 

I guess I can't expect her to hold it and wait for me to ask, but that's why I try to get her to go when I have the paper towel, so that she just won't have to go at times when I'm not ready for her.

 

Dave - your last comment raises a question for me about how people who do let their birds out all day deal with the mess. I've tried letting her roam the house herself (with me keeping an eye on her to make sure she didn't find trouble) and she wound up going much more frequently than when she's sitting with me. Within a couple of hours I had almost 20 small spots to clean up on the couch, tables, and carpet, some of which I didn't even see on the carpet before I stepped in them. Do people really go around cleaning that much every day?

[wildmike556]

One other thing is I really don't think our previous success is just luck. Usually if she's sitting with me wherever we happen to be (on the couch, on my shoulder, whatever) I pick her up periodically and move her over the paper towel, ask her to go, she does, and then I put her back. Given that she goes within 10 seconds of my request 90% of the time just can't be pure chance.

[Dave007]

Some people put down vinyl cloths and anything that drops there is usually easy to pick up. Other people wait until the feces hardens and then gathers it. Also easy to pick up. Some people lay down newspapers and simply roll them up and dispose of them, but most people who have a few birds flying around are pretty aware that there's gonna be some kind of constant mess. It all goes with territory. Parrots are messy. Always have been and always will be. This is a rough timetable

1st dump--biggest, within 30 to 60 seconds after waking

2nd dump--smaller but still solid--about 30 to 45 minutes later

3rd dump--mostly urine---about 1 hr later

Rest of the day expect small amounts of droppings approx 45 to 50 minutes apart.

Bird has been eating throughout day. In the evening, expect droppings to be thicker yet small---about 1 hr apart.

Then it's finally time to sleep. The digestive system works on the remaining contents, stores them away, the bird has a good sleep, wakes up the next morning and *splat*--a new day--some new dumps.

[wildmike556]

Well they certainly are all different. My Rascal can vary on either side of that. Sometimes she won't drop her first one for over an hour, or sometimes the little ones in the evening could be 10-15 minutes apart.

 

Maybe I just have to get some better poop cleaner and get a stockpile of paper towels for cleanup.

[Nychsa]

Dave007 wrote:

You're giving your bird too much credit. Birds aren't **purposefully disobedient**. Obstinate, yes. They also don't try to **prove a point** <br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/09/23 22:03

 

HMMM, Dave - I'm not sure about this - take this for example:

 

Bella loves to try and chew on the Roman shades. No matter how elusive I make them, she seems to find a way to snag one. So, I figured if I can teach her "no bite" I should be able to teach her "no, no".

 

So, we went through this drill over a couple of days - she'd nab the shade, I would get up, go to her say "no, no" and move her away from the shade.

 

Well, a couple of days into this she's on the shade again and I say "no, no", I get ready to get up, she runs away from the shade. I sit back down. We go through that drill a couple of times.

 

About the 3rd time I decide she's going to keep this up either way, so I just need to move her.

 

So she nabs the shade, I get up and go to her, she yells "NO NO" flies off lands on the floor next to my computer cable which I've told her "no no" about too, and she acts like she's going to bite that but I'm too close behind her, so as soon as I get close enough she runs off again.

 

Finally until I catch up with her, nab her, put my finger out and before I can say "step up" she says "STEP UP!" and she promptly poops on my hand and happily says "ooop Poop Poop!!!" :blink:

 

I just kind of look at her and then to top it all off, she makes a HUGE GINORMOUS kissing noise!!!

 

Now look - even if she wasn't out to mock me - I sure felt mocked!!!!

 

She also gets quite annoyed with me if she wants to play and I'm busy! She likes for me to play poke her in the belly and say "bing". When I don't want to do that, she jumps on my lap top screen and paces back and forth going "bing, bing, bing" bobbing and weaving around. If I continue to work, she starts wacking my computer screen with her beak! One time I moved her off my computer and back on the couch and she ran up behind me and ripped my glasses clean off my face! :unsure:

 

I don't know Dave - to me it seems like she's going through the terrible twos!!!!!! I think they can be purposely disobedient!

[Nychsa]

wildmike556 wrote:

how people who do let their birds out all day deal with the mess. I've tried letting her roam the house herself (with me keeping an eye on her to make sure she didn't find trouble) and she wound up going much more frequently than when she's sitting with me. Within a couple of hours I had almost 20 small spots to clean up on the couch, tables, and carpet, some of which I didn't even see on the carpet before I stepped in them. Do people really go around cleaning that much every day?

 

Hi Mike, The way we work it is I have a little poop stand that Bella seems to prefer to do her business on. She runs around the house all day with me, and when it's been like about 45 minutes or so, I put her on her stand and ask her to go poop poop and she'll immediately go - she give great commentary on it too :laugh: She also likes to turn around and take a good look at her accomplishments

 

Sometimes after she goes, she'll sit there still for a few moments as though she's giving it one more good go! And then she's off again...

 

My conure on the other hand was never potty trained because he's very picky about only going in his cage. I remember he went once on the bath tub rim and he looked at his deposit with one eye ball and then he started to scooch away from it like "oh, no, that wasn't me - I have no idea who did that!"

 

When he's out and about in the house he flies back to his cage when he has to go - he does his business and off he goes again. I never taught him that - it's just something he does

 

But the play stand may work for Rascal - I don't think Bella would go on a paper towel - she'd want to tear that up :laugh:

[slmclean]

i use poop off to clean my birds messes up and i usually clean them up as soon as she goes and it is no big deal to me either.

[shanlung]

I do hope that there is time for companionship and friendship.

 

Sadly when one 'commands' and beasties to 'obey', friendship and bonding goes out of the window.

 

Just like if one can really be true friends with the 'boss'. Can it be that different if you are the 'boss' to be obeyed instantly.

 

Maybe it is just a state of mind, as when you watch them to see if they 'obey', you miss seeing the nuances of what they want to tell you.

 

By the actions and even motions I could feel on my shoulder when Tink was on me, I knew she was going to poop. I then took her off and asked her to poop. If I gotten entranced with other stuff, and missed her telling of me, then thats my mistake and she could and should poop on me.

 

At my invitations, Tinkerbell and Yingshiong flew to me when cued.

At my requests, they flew back into their cages when asked.

 

No alphaship, but just interactions between sentient beings of equal standing.

 

Life is a lot more than being an alpha.

 

It will be a lot more fun for all parties.

[wildmike556]

Nychsa - I can just see your little conure doing that. Rascal just pretends nothing ever happened, so I have to make sure she doesn't go back and step in it.... silly bird.

 

Anyway, just to be inconsistent, Rascal followed my requests perfectly all yesterday evening. Oh well. She may be confusing, but I sure love that little bugger.

 

Thanks for the input, everyone! It looks like I have some things to try if any problems arise.

[Jane08]

Must admit I am one of those people that have them flying around the house during the day and have to clean up the poop. Basically they have places like perches that they fly between and poop at and then I have paper under it. If they are on the sofa with me our female lets us know she needs to go and then we just lift her to where she can go. I guess we are trying to teach them to let us know when they need to go and not to go on command.

 

Of course they have accidents and I don't get mad at them as it's not their fault that I expect them to poop in certain places.

[Jane08]

Must admit I am one of those people that have them flying around the house during the day and have to clean up the poop. Basically they have places like perches that they fly between and poop at and then I have paper under it. If they are on the sofa with me our female lets us know she needs to go and then we just lift her to where she can go. I guess we are trying to teach them to let us know when they need to go and not to go on command.

 

Of course they have accidents and I don't get mad at them as it's not their fault that I expect them to poop in certain places.

[darth_mint]

I usually put newspaper around the places where Nicky likes to hang out - it's fairly easy as he's pretty sedentary and spends most of the time on top of his cage, so I just need to put the newspaper around the cage and he hangs off to poop on it. He's apparently decided the newspaper is the poop place all on his own, smart bird!

 

Of course there are little accidents...like times when he apparently forgets where his butt is and poops in his food dish :sick: or one time I was reading the papers near his cage and he climbed down to investigate, and deposited his load right in the middle of the business section (which I hadn't read yet)...guess he can't tell the difference between papers for reading and papers for pooping on. :blink:

 

Comes down to their own preference I guess, if a bird has common sense it PROBABLY won't poop in its food or tread in the poop

[shanlung]

It is amusing to me, and to others here that allow free flight to their birdies in home to read of fears that the birdies poop at random and all over the place.

 

In the case of Tinkerbell and of Yingshiong, there are at least 7 main areas that were made attractive for them to go.

 

Cage doors were wired opened as food were kept in there.

Other places would have water.

 

Yet other places might have 'titbits' randomly placed there for 'foraging'. Yet other places might have favourite toys, changed now and then.

 

In other words, those places were made attractive to them.

 

Those places were 'named'. As part of our interactions would be to cue them to fly to those named places in order of calling.

 

Doing just recalls would be boring to all parties and they are too intelligent to subject them to numbing repeats on repeats.

 

It was only fair where there were places involute to them as I did chase them from places that I deemed to be mine and 'out of bounds' to them. Not as if that was heeded all the time.

 

I would say that 95% of the time their poops would be in those places. Needless to say, those places would be 'prepared' by newspapers or large paper towels.

 

I treated those remaing 5% with humour that you must have if you are going to live with a flighted birdie/birdies at home.

[Nychsa]

I wouldn't say companionship and friendship go out the window when soem ground rules are established.

 

I've lived with dogs most of my life. Jiggy and Bella are my first feathered companions and I've never felt closer to a companion animal as I do to Bella (CAG). She's a part of just about everything I do in the house - always with me, always paying attention to what I'm doing, chatting, and chatting and chatting! She talks up a storm - that is unless she's with me doing evening meditations. She sits on her perch and on her own just observes - but.. she's there! Always with me.

[shanlung]

Ground rules are important.

 

My earlier writings always stressed that. Why must it be assumed that no ground rules be applied?

 

I always state that we are equals, not birdies /beasties at higher lever.<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2008/09/24 21:56

[shanlung]

<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2008/09/24 21:55

[Tycos_mom]

I agree totally Shanung I have bird that fly around my house from morning until night there are accidents but for the most part I watch their body language or if they are on me I can usually feel when they step back I then just say go home or go to you play stand and off they go we have a very good repore and they know when I say go here or there they go. I never have problems with putting them to bed or anything I just ask them to go into their house and they go. if you teach your bird and talk to it like you would a friend they learn they are very intelegent and do not need a boss just be a friend to your bird and they will do what you ask because they want to not because you tell them they have to.

[Suzzique]

Alex is flighted and can go anywhere in the living room he wants. He mostly stays on his playstand or his cage/play area. He never poos in his cage unless we are gone all day. He mostly poos on his playstand. If he is on the coffee table he will go to the edge and poo off of the edge. We have hardwood floors. So under his cage and playstand I have sheet plastic as it's very easy to clean. Under the coffee table we have a very nice indoor/outdoor rug. So about once a week I take it outside and hose it off and let it dry in the sun. I knew birds were messy when we got him so it doesn't really bother me. I have better things to do durning the day than run around cleaning up after Alex. I sweep up the major stuff once a day. Everything else gets done once a week.