Wing clipping??

[shanlung]

xandriasphynx,

 

You understand you have a huge responsibility now. The reward is there as you have read of my saga with Tinkerbell.

 

There are clear steps ahead of you as laid out in Tinkerbell Legacy. DO NOT LOOK FOR SHORTCUTS. In doubt, write to me here and cc to my direct email.

 

Do not depend just on your 'bond'. That bond must be nutured via training. As that is a daily affair, make it fun for both of you.

 

If you have not done formal clicker training, YOU MUST SERIOUSLY CONSIDER THAT.

 

Read the stuff I written on clicker training.

 

Understand the dangers if you want your grey to have flight.

 

Believe me, you do not ever want to be inducted into the Overnighters club. Premature aging is only a small part of the price you pay.

 

Greys are supremely intelligent , with far better eyesight and hearing than yours. They will see things that spook them without you haveing a clue why.

 

The power of that spook is frightening.

 

When I read of people walking their greys out saying they clamp their thumbs on the toes, I cringe.

 

Take your time. Greys can live to 60-70 years. I want that grey to be with you till natural death part you both.

 

Shanlung

[carlylu]

In amazing timing, the issue of WatchBird I got in the mail yesterday has a very interesting article with info on behavior problems in greys that includes factors such as ability to fly. It focuses on how they were raised (pulled and hand-fed, parent-raised or wild) but to control for other factors they also looked at things like cage size, number of toys, and being flighted.

 

The findings on feather picking behavior were that hand-raised greys were the most likely to feather chew later in life. But they also found that not being able to fly was just about as likely to cause this behavior. This is not to say that all clipped birds will become feather chewers, just that flighted birds are much less likely to. To me this says a lot about the effect of flight on a grey's mental health.

 

I'll post more on the article in a new thread. The findings about hand raising are very interesting too. Really contradicts the idea that hand-raised babies make the best pets. In their study group babies pulled right away and hand-raised were the most likely to have problems with aggression, feather picking, and hormonal issues. Parent-raised were also healthiest.

 

raz

[Moddy]

There isn't much gain in keeping his wings at full growth, you can't take him outside when it's warm because even if you think he won't fly away there's always a chance he might. I would clip them everything he is fully able to fly. It may give them confidence.. But soon he can start to get really cocky. My parrot Tj got really cocky showing off and bit the cat (His friend) because he was showing off and the cat decided to give him a kiss at the wrong time.

[carlylu]

Moddy wrote:

There isn't much gain in keeping his wings at full growth, you can't take him outside when it's warm because even if you think he won't fly away there's always a chance he might.

 

That's what harnesses and training are for. Taking a clipped bird outside without either is one of the most common ways they are lost.

 

I would clip them everything he is fully able to fly. It may give them confidence.. But soon he can start to get really cocky.

 

Being confident and having bad behavior are completely different things. Bad behavior is just as likely to happen (perhaps more likely) with a clipped bird who gets less exercise and enrichment from flying. The key to avoiding bad behavior is enrichment and training.

 

The first thing my grey did when she came home at 4 months (clipped and unfledged) was walk up to my cat and grab his ID tags. Cockiness is part of what these guys are about. If someone kissed me when I didn't want them to I'd probably bite them too! :evil:

 

raz

[Dave007]

A couple of years ago, I was studying the specific methods that Shanlung used in order to get his grey into a free flying mode. It was interesting and I decided to put lots of effort to achieve the same with my grey. I discussed it with him and basiclly he told me how to use baby steps and eventually work my way up. At the time no one else was interested in trying out the whole process but I did tell him that I would persue it. Yes, it took me a long time but I was finally successful. He spoke about his homemade harness. I never did figure out how to make that harness but I did make a few adjustments on the 2 harnesses I own and they worked. As of today, my grey Smokey will fly around for about 50 ft and will come back on command. I lengthened the amount of filament gradually and it worked very well. In the beginning of this training I told him that I had gotten up to 25 to 30 ft of Smokey's flight. Smokey would much rather check all outside things while he's next to me. Also, Smokey is able to handle the outdoors in my outdoor aviary as is my Timneh Tee.

I have 2 major opinions about wing clipping that have proven true for the 20 odd years of being involved with greys. I won't tell people not to clip. That's an individual choice. My 2 opinions are

1--A parrot's personality and sureness of itself is much more developed when no clipping is involved. A parrot will show more of it's true personality if it's not clipped. I've seen that over and over and over.

2---Anyone who decides to clip should wait until that grey is at least 6 top 8 mts old so that the ability to fly up, down, to the left, to the right and also have the ability to steady itself in a still position in mid air to allow itself to make landings on things such as hummingbirds do. Actually all parrots have that ability but a clipped bird can't have that advantage.

Concerning my Smokey, the free flight training would have never been successful if he didn't have that sureness and personality that an unclipped bird has.

 

I accomplished these things with Smokey but I used slight variations than Shanlung. His method accomplished what he wanted with Tinkerbell and my method accomplished what I wanted with Smokey. The reason both methods worked was because Tinkerbell and Smokey are 2 individual birds with their own outward personalities.

I connected with Shanlung about 2 1/2 yrs ago through an english board so I know he wouldn't even remember me but his ideas and feelings about flight training are the same as mine concerning what a parrot's personality has to be in order to teach and accomplish flight training-------Dave<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/03/29 18:16

Edited April 14, 2010 by Dave007

[Guest Monique]

I believe it is okay to clip a bird but only after they have learned how to fly. Many experienced breeders have seen that when they allow the babies to fly before going to their homes and getting a clip - that their babies are less prone to neurological problems later in life. Then once they go home if the owners want them clipped they can clip them. You can clip them different lengths. For instance if you clip just some, but not too much ... and they have already learned to fly ... then if they "fall" they can glide to the floor vs. "plop".

 

I don't know if there is any scientific evidence but just because of what the experienced breeders say, I would recommend allowing your birds wings to grow out once and learn to fly (being very safe and cautious of course) and then if you need to clip them to do so.

[Guest]

I think personally I would go for the unclipped wings. My purpose with everything to keep it as much as nature intended, so probably this is what I would do. Again: a personal decision. No offense.

[shanlung]

Dave!

 

I did not recognise your log-in name as I always known you as Dave. Only when Smokey came up that I thought it might be you. Some of the best conversations I have had was with you. If that was now, I would have copied that into my Livejoural. I was kind of sad those disappeared in the two occasions when that forum crashed. And from what I checked a week back, that crashed again.

 

I am happy you acheived your brand of happiness with Smokey. You also recalled in your old British forum, I never advocate flight. Rather by my example and opening a window into my world with a flighted Tinkerbell, that others can consider this possibility too. It is as you said, a journey that only you can make yourself.

 

From all I came across, and know deep in my heart, techniques are but a tiny portion. Much much more depend on the relationship between one and the parrot. You seen that in what I wrote to FairY. But those elements are difficult to discuss and she probably thought what I said to be a long winded telling her to be patient.

 

I have had 5 cats and the only similarities they shared were that they meowed and have 4 legs. Their personalities were so vastly different. In which case parrots, and greys in particular, being much more intelligent will have personalites vastly more different.

 

Your taking Smokey out in safety to see more of the world than the walls of the house will also shape your relationships. I feel sorry about your not using Tinkerbell harness design. I think your problem is that you just find it difficult to believe it is that simple to make. By the way, Tink harness weighs in at 3 (three) grams, the lightest most comfortable harness by far, the easiest to put on, and impossible for parrot to get out off.

 

 

 

FairY,

 

As I have been back a couple of times since writing that email, I couldnt have left here. I find your forum to be a nice place to be in.

 

I just found that subject of asymmetrical wings clipping to be distasteful as I felt physically sick even thinking of that.

 

I have been involved in discussions in other forums such as one where I tried to help this grey in Scotland to come out of psychosis. And a blind Tiny Tim TAG being lovingly looked after by a sweet lady and her famuily.

 

 

Then at another place where this grey had no feet.

 

Maybe you like to read an extract from below

 

On footless CAGs and retiring Don Quixote

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/66349.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

 

 

On footless CAGs and retiring Don Quixote

 

At Grey Connection

http://www.ParrotTalk.com,

 

I got to know Kathy with a footless CAG the other day.

 

I wrote:

 

There is this other footless CAG called T kept by JC.

I can not give full details as I had not cleared it

with JC yet.

 

T was nearly put down but JC took him in because of

what she read of me and Tinkerbell and corresponded

with me at early stage. We decided T be allowed to

fledge and fly, which he did. As with any flighted

bird, training for recalls and bonding became

paramount importance.

 

To cut a long story short, T became much more mobile

than fully footed CAGs and bonded incredibly well with

JC.

 

Perhaps you should consider this option too.

 

 

Shanlung

 

 

Kathy came back with

 

Thanks so much for the suggestion. At this time Banjo is flighted. I

felt it was important for balance, mobility and confidence. I have

absolutely no idea how to do recall with Banjo.. I have been reading the

comments about keeping blind Tiny Tim flighted or not with great

interest..

 

Banjo has started to do fright flights if I am too forward. So I

think I need to sit back and just relax a bit with him. I used to be able

to move him in his little cage to other places in the house and he

could come out when he was ready. Now in his new larger cage he does not

have a way to come out on his own. I guess I need to fix that.

 

When he flies, he flies fast, really fast. I am concerned about his

ability to choose to land somewhere rather that stopping by bashing

into something. I am afraid he will hurt himself before he decides he has

control Twice he has landed on a shelf, though rather abruptly.

 

So it is a learning process, and I am open to suggestions.

 

Kathy and Banjo

 

By then, JC replied to me sending her regards to Kathy and allowed me to mentioned her

 

I then wrote off to Grey Connection

 

 

Hi Kathy,

 

Ms Jean Clark and her Tigger send you and Banjo her

regards. She will be happy to discuss with you on her

experience with Tigger.

 

You might like to see how Tigger is in

 

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1236935906044864049xszLqM

 

In that folder, the earlier photos showed Tigger as a

20 day old chick to later photos with Tigger in

flight.

 

If you have a flighted parrot, there are a few things

that you must do to avoid tragedy.

 

You have to birdproof your house. You MUST TRAIN your

Banjo to do recalls. That training will also develope

that very important bond and mutual understanding

between you and your Banjo.

 

The training will not be difficult at all. I will be

happy to help you with that.

 

You should read

Tinkerbell Legacy, or Part 2 in Tinkerbell main page

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

 

You should read the rants on birdproofing the house,

the mentality of parrot and clicker training. Then

the final part 'Bringing it all together'

 

Clicker training is important. You should also go

into Part 1 - Early Period and read 'Some thoughts on

clicker training' and 'clicker training and bonding'

 

Kathy, you are not alone. You and Banjo have the

goodwill of all who know you.

 

 

Shanlung

 

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

From time to time, conversations like above will keep me from writing here. So silence from me never meant I left for good as I will be back.

 

 

Shanlung

[Dave007]

I'm not Shanlung but I'd like to add my feelings on the 'one wing' clip.

First, the reason wing clipping is done is to stop the bird from flying upward towards ceilings where ceiling fans, curtains and tall cabinets are located. There's a chance that on those cabinets there's items (sometimes breakable) that a bird can fly into and knock them over and that'll cause breakage. As far as moving ceiling fans, there's a chance that a bird will fly onto the wings of that fan and get seriously injured before the person can stop it. Also, a frightened bird might wind up behind those cabinets where electric wire and sockets are. One bite of the wire, and you'll know the results.Breakage of wings, smashing the bird's head, cracking breast areas, breaking of claws that get caught up in curtain material can happen etc. Proper wing clipping will allow a bird horozontal movement and the ability to glide downward to a floor. The ideal wing clip is one that allows a bird to fly about 8 ft before gliding down. Unfortunately, ideal wing clips aren't always done. Vets and their technitions have their own ideas about wing length.

A long time ago, 'one wing' clipping was finally discouraged because it will only allow a bird to fly in a circle which is unnatural. Eventually, a bird will figure out that flying that way isn't any fun and will cause the bird to stay in one area. Now, that might be fine with a lot of people but if something unknown happens and causes the bird to be startled it will fly away but it still can't readjust the way it flys away. It can cause a bird to fly into a wall. Basically, the end result is that a bird suffers from so many different ideas.

Again I'll say, I'm not a fan of any type of wing clipping because I definitely believe it affects a bird's natural outward personality. Cockiness, spunkiness, sureness of itself are among those things that can get affected. Many people who clip wings aren't even aware that a bird has a personality that's being held in check.

I believe that better training of a bird can be accomplished when that outward personality is developed.

Another reason I don't believe in wing clipping is because if a bird remains clipped for a long period of time and that outward personality is never developed but is then allowed to have it's wings grown back that outward personality will still not be able to come out. Habits of birds are hard to readjust and change.

Yesterday, I spoke about my grey and what I did with him as far as long distance outdoor flight BUT I can guarantee you that none of that could have been accomplished if he had first be allowed to develop and grow as a clipped bird. Because of his boldness combined with his trust in me I was successful. I've seen many bird's personality undeveloped and hindered because of wing clipping. I studied Shanlung's style and applied it to my grey with some variations but it did work.

Again, as opposed to many other boards, I will not insult people who clip. Nor will I tell them not to clip. That's a person's choice.

All of what I say about personality here has to do with not only my grey but to other greys too. I've seen it with many, many other greys through the years of dealing with them.

I also believe that my feelings on wing clipping apply to other species of parrots too. My close friend has 2 cockatoos and they've never been clipped and he has never had any problems with them and they're frequently outside. Concerning my greys in the house, because they're unclipped they have absolutely no desire to fly upward onto curtains, fans and cabinets. They much rather fly to my hands, arm or onto my leg.

Shanlung may disagree with me concerning outward personality but as I've said what I say is strictly my opinion----Dave<br><br>Post edited by: MrSpock, at: 2007/03/26 18:46

[Guest]

OK I'm convinced. Asymmetrical wing clipping is cruel. Are there still vets recommending it?

 

Shanlung good to see you here (although you were here and I didn't see you as you wrote) - I appreciate your professionalism and true passion for the wellbeing of the birds, so I'm real glad.<br><br>Post edited by: FairY, at: 2007/03/26 23:45

[Dave007]

I don't know all the vets that're in business but it's been a long time since I saw one suggesting one wing clipping. Did you know that years ago vets used to recommend that people who put their birds on playstands should put a thing chain on one leg to keep them on the stand? That's another thing that's now unacceptable---Dave

[Guest]

Yes, bu learning becomes one wise. Pitty only that's over the backs of these lovely creatures

[shanlung]

MrSpock wrote:

Proper wing clipping will allow a bird horozontal movement and the ability to glide downward to a floor. The ideal wing clip is one that allows a bird to fly about 8 ft before gliding down.

 

Hi Dave,

 

In an ideal world, what you say above may be right.

 

The other extreme will be extremely severe clipping of wings. When I was in Riyadh and in a parrot shop, this grey jumped off the top of cage about 5 feet from ground. The sound of him hitting down, the spray of blood around him, and the screaming of that poor guy hurt me crazy. I do not wish ever to have another keel bone broken even if not in front of me.

 

People clipped for a few key reasons.

 

1. They had been conditioned to that because of what they read or were told. This seemed to be peculiarly American. Tinkerbell wings were so nearly clipped by me at the beginning as the books I read all recommended that (all American books) as well as forums in 2002 when I first had Tinkerbell. I was lucky enough to bought a British parrot mag to give me second thoughts.

 

2. The sight of initial flights, the crashing into walls was extremely frightening and I thought my precious Tink was crazy in trying to fly through walls while I stumbled about chasing her with a pillow to cushion her falls after hitting the wall. Once again, I so nearly reached for that scissors and Tink the flyig grey of Taiwan so nearly did not exist. But that british mag persuaded me to let that continue for a few more days.

 

She then found her flying skills to turn, slow, hover and stopped banging into walls.

 

Folks, this episode is inevitable. Your birds may be natural fliers, but even so, they MUST develope their muscles , flying skills and sense of balance. But at this early stage, their speed will be very slow(even if it appeared fast to you) and chances of harm to them will be there.

 

You can minimise this by letting them fledge in a small room, with curtains or rope nets around the walls for them to fly to and cling too. Or you can run around like me with a cushion.

 

If you see a human toddler trying to walk and falling down, will you have fear for his/her safety and not ever let him discover balance and walk? Will you have him/her crawl for the rest of their life because you are afraid to see them fall?

 

This is same as your choice for your bird.

 

3 By clipping wings and thinking thus the clipped bird will never fly away. I need not repeat my earlier postings of clipped birds that flown away.

 

In what Dave said , that is true in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we live in the real world.

But most people then went on to extrapolate that then, their bird will never be able to fly away. That is where I draw that line.

 

So after you got that 'perfect clip' and your parrot then fly about 8 feet and not gaining height. But again, have that clip been tested under worse case condition? Such as a sudden blast of air horn , or a strange hat thrust in front to see if that parrot cannot gain height in a spook situation?

 

Can you bear to do a sudden spook, or allow others to do that to your parrot? To see if that clipped wings hold good in spook conditions? And with Murphy at your elbows, how about throwing in that gust of wind at the same time?

 

Can you ever guarantee such conditions will never ever occur to you?

 

People had thought so. Their parrot paid heavier price than they did.

Your choice again to see if you can beat those odds.

 

On a different note Dave, I tried to log in to your old forum to let you and other friends there know about my last trip to be with Tink in Nov last year. If you did know, fine. If not, you might like to read this

 

Tinkerbell Interlude photoset and videos, and start of next chapter of life. Also as to why I am now here in Brisbane , down under.

http://shanlung.livejournal.com/65169.html

 

 

Shanlung

 

http://www.geocities.com/shanlung9/

[shanlung]

In earlier email here, I mentioned of this footless CAG Tigger.

 

Is your fully footed CAG more mobile?

 

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1236935906044864049xszLqM

 

Shanlung

 

Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/03/29 15:58<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/03/29 16:00

[Guest]

Wow! Shanlung, that's one i-m-p-r-e-s-s-i-v-e bird :ohmy:

[Japie]

there has been so much said on the topic, that I feel more confident to pursue my quest in teaching Japie all the inns and outs of being a fully flighted friend. for now, we have to sit it out and let those clipped feathers grow out. but in the meantime we have bonded properly without the immediate fear of escape into the 'bushveld'. (where we live...)

he has caught on to the 'gliding' thing vs the free flight which he had. in this way I feel (as first time grey owner) that our confidence would grow together.

thanx for all the input!!

[Coco23]

If you don't mind me putting in my input here - I have read many posts and articles about clipping wings vs. not clipping wings - as I see it, there are pro's and con's to BOTH sides. To me, it's a matter of personal choice, and the owner's decision to make the best decision he/she can make for the bird.

 

My Coco's wings have been clipped - however, I am now letting the flight feathers grow back, as I don't feel it's too necessary in my home's arrangement - I have also purchased an aviator harness.

 

So, in my honest opinion - Either way - it's a decision you make on your own! Sorry if I sound harsh - :blush:

[MARIR]

has anyone heard of your african grey "flying" with the wings clipped?!? Gabby flew about 100 feet lastnight (after Sam sun conure) scared her...her wings are clipped...

[MARIR]

on one website it actually said that the bird could pluck the other wings feathers out to recompensate for the clipped wing, also that it could cause the AG to walk crooked, and that inturn would cause the spine to become curved over time.

[Guest]

Coco you don't sound harsh, because in the end that's where it comes down to. Quite a few arguments going either way -

 

I wouldn't clip them if I'd have a Grey, but that would be my personal choice.

 

Marir :laugh: I'm in stitches, haha.... you must have been so surprised.

[TheGreyMiester]

In my non-expert opinion, I personally feel that a bird should first learn how to fly when they're a baby, and then clip the wings for training and getting used to each other. After the bird has settled in the new environment, and both you and the bird have built a bond, it’s ok to let the wings grow out if one chooses to do so. With My Quaker I did just that, and had fantastic results.

[shanlung]

Is there this inate desire to clip wings?

 

My earlier emails gave enough evidence clipping of wings will not stop unwanted flights from occuring.

 

Do we now rationalise that to train and getting used to each other will require the wings to be clipped? With the inuendo that not clipping the wings meant therefore training cannot be done?

 

Perhaps TheGreyMiester can explain that?

 

If clipping is done from personal choice , I have no problem with that at all as I always maintain that to be a personal choice.

 

But if clipping is presented as a pre-requisite for anything, very solid and meaningful arguments for that should also be given.

 

 

Shanlung<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/04/18 03:02

[carlylu]

MARIR wrote:

has anyone heard of your african grey "flying" with the wings clipped?!? Gabby flew about 100 feet lastnight (after Sam sun conure) scared her...her wings are clipped...

 

Yes, it happens all the time. When mine was clipped she could fly quite a long distance, very fast, with no ability to turn or land.

 

That's why it is SO important to train birds for recall, whether they are clipped or not. Clipping is no insurance that your bird will not escape, and with the total lack of flight skills that usually involves it can be a recipe for disaster. Typically clipped birds can't get much altitude, but it depends a lot on the severity of the clip, wind, terrain, etc.

 

raz

[TheGreyMiester]

shanlung wrote:

Is there this inate desire to clip wings?

 

My earlier emails gave enough evidence clipping of wings will not stop unwanted flights from occuring.

 

Do we now rationalise that to train and getting used to each other will require the wings to be clipped? With the inuendo that not clipping the wings meant therefore training cannot be done?

 

Perhaps TheGreyMiester can explain that?

 

If clipping is done from personal choice , I have no problem with that at all as I always maintain that to be a personal choice.

 

But if clipping is presented as a pre-requisite for anything, very solid and meaningful arguments for that should also be given.

 

 

Shanlung<br><br>Post edited by: shanlung, at: 2007/04/18 03:02

 

 

As I have stated before I was giving a non-expert PERSONAL opinion on the topic. I sense a bit of offence that was not intended. Unless your bird gets scared on a dily bassis clipping can be useful. It's been done for decades and decades.

 

My very own experiance with this has been a positive one. Perhaps you feel because I am an American I know nothing.<br><br>Post edited by: TheGreyMiester, at: 2007/04/18 14:35

[MARIR]

I'm for clipping, I am sorry but if one of my babies escaped I'd die, all it takes is one second, like my coworker who lost her cockatiel when her son opened the door while the bird was sitting on her shoulder...in a different room. the birds has not been seen again, and I'm sure could not have lasted the cold winter here. She came to work crying... After spending time, money and giving your heart to your feathered friend, do you want to take that chance?