We're at an impasse

[Acappella]

Dorian and I had a lovely winter with him and I spending most of the day in the same room, or me being in the room adjacent to his cage where my computer is, chatting back and forth. As the seasons change here I'll want to spend more time outside and I don't want to leave him alone feeling deserted. Problem is, for a breed known for stubborness, I think I have the ultimate! He still refuses to step up off his cage or a perch. He's even started to refuse to step-up from the floor, when getting down on the floor was his decision! When he has been startled onto the floor, I can get him to step-up and then walk around with him, sit in another room practicing (where he can't see his cage) and he's fine. But if he's on a perch or on his cage, he will litteraly shy away from my hand until he's lost balance and is hanging upside down from the perch. Also likes to 'move' my hand with his beak, always gently. It's very clear he knows what step-up means, but he loves his cage and apparently sees no need to be away from it. I have a smaller cage and stand that is all ready for him to have trips outside when the weather is warm enough, and right now I could put it by a window inside so he can see me working outside, but not if the monkey won't have anything to do with it. I need to solve this because right now he's in charge. I can't let this feathery tyrant keep both of us indoors through an Ontario spring and summer that is way too short! Short of simply grabbing him/prying him off, I don't know what to do, and I don't want to break his trust since he came to me totally hand shy.

 

Some technical info: the previous owner made him terrified of sticks/perches, so using one to teach step up only causes growling, shaking and retreat.

 

He loves, scratches, petting, even lets me trim his nails. He obviously trusts me and is bonded to me.

[Johnny]

Time to shoot the bird....Kidding.

Is he full flighted?

 

This bird is pulling you around by the nose. While you were trying to be his friend you didn't train him, he trained you. It's Ok! I have found that doing something over and over again, is the key for success. Do it until you can't stand it anymore, and do it some more. I would pick him up a hundred times a day off the cage or perch until HE gets it. Use the same tone when you work with him, and remember when he gets tired he will do even better. I would do an hour a day. This works for me, but it might not work for others.<br><br>Post edited by: Johnny, at: 2008/04/30 03:14

[Char]

I am no expert but just a thought.. What if you put your hand between him and some food so that he had to step up to the hand first in order to get to the food. Might that help him get used to the hand?

[Acappella]

Thanks guys. Johnny, he is clipped. It just wouldn't be safe for him to be flighted in my home the way it stands right now. We actually had a big step in the right direction yesterday. I was upstairs and he was in his cage with the door open. He suddenly got very quiet so I went down to check on him and he's climbing up the side of his small cage, the one I want to take him out in, which I've been moving closer to his cage so that he gets used to it. Guess he decided it was safer than the floor! Anyway, I asked him to step up and he did right away, proving once again the monkey does know what the command means!

 

Anyway, I took him into another room where he couldn't see his cage and walked around with him, asking him to step from hand to hand. He did sooooo good and I praised the heck out of him. He was actually looking around and I can see him thinking 'so this is where she disapears to when she goes around the corner' He even preened a bit and was shaking his tail feathers which I think means 'happy bird' doesn't it?

 

Then I took him into my office, and sat at my desk with him for a few minutes before I took him back to his cage and gave him a big treat. I'm hoping I'll make him curious enough about where I'm going when I leave the room that he'll be happy to come with me, and I think he's starting to feel more secure perching on my hand. Putting my thumb over his talons seems to help, which is a tip I got on this forum! All in all, a great afternoon. Now all I need is a good non-toxic way to get poop out of low pile carpet (the office wasn't ready for a visit from the poop machine!)

[danmcq]

That sounds like great progress yesterday acappella!!

 

They key does seem to be getting him away from his safety zone, the cage. He seems to be quite the obedient boy when he is out of his safe environment and perhaps you should try capitalizing on that as much as possible. :-)

 

Looking forward to hearing more progress reports and adventures outside.

[goldn1]

Funny, must be the name. We have a re-homed Dorian as well and she/he is just as stubborn as yours sounds. I got her a lovely playstand weeks ago and she will tolerate it next to her cage but isn't the least interested in getting on it. She'll let us play fetch with her on top of the cage and will now put her beak through the bars of the cage for us to rub. But if you put your hand anywhere near her on or in the cage you're likely to pull back a bloody stump. She's not having it! She hasn't been off her cage for almost three weeks now and I think we're also at a stalemate. I put the playstand in front of her cage door to one side last night while she was on top figuring she'd have to get near it to get back in.....the little poop waited me out for almost 2 hours before she let Dad bribe her back in with treats. She too is terrified of sticks and towels and I don't want to traumatize her but she needs a bath (hasn't had one since we got her a little over a month ago and HATES being sprayed) and while we have made progress she needs a vet checkup, beak/wing/nail trim, and I need my fingers for work. Any suggestions????

[goldn1]

Update:

 

Dorian got a good spray bath on Saturday.....she was flinging water everywhere which I saw somewhere indicated she was trying to get herself wet, so I did it for her. I figured while she was already mad I'd do some major cleaning and rearranging in her cage. She got over it when we took her outside in her cage and let her watch us do yard work in the sunshine.

 

Last night we were watching tv and I guess she was feeling ignored, next thing I knew there was wing flapping and a grey on the floor walking around...lol. After some convincing she did step up, let me hold and pet her, even whistled and said hello in my ear (OUCH).

 

It's kind of funny, every time I start to get frustrated with how slow progress seems to be she pulls a new stunt to remind me it's worth it to be so very patient and not rush her too much.

 

Btw, she's a very smart bird...I've been watching some of the youtube videos of talking greys, Saturday morning we watched the one of Einstein on Pet Star...Einstein says "Oink, Oink, Oink" once. I listened to the video ONCE.....guess who now repeats Oink, Oink, Oink (and Dad's laugh) over and over and over and over again!!!! Sounds like we have a farm in our house.....between the bird chirps, chihauhaus barking, and now pigs oinking and it's all one bird making them!

[judygram]

I'm glad to hear some progress is being made by Dorian, she is starting to want to be close to the rest of the flock and that is motivating her to do what she has been cautious about until now. Patience indeed will pay off and she is proof of it.

 

They are smart birds as they only have to hear something once to repeat it over and over again until you get sick of it but it is so funny to hear all those sounds come out of their beak, you have to watch what you say around them thats for sure.:laugh:

[Gaevren]

I've seen that Einstein video (I have it bookmarked because it makes me laugh so much) and that is so funny that Dorian does the oinking now! :lol: It sounds like she's making great progress. How wonderful!

[siobha9]

goldn1 wrote:

Update:

 

It's kind of funny, every time I start to get frustrated with how slow progress seems to be she pulls a new stunt to remind me it's worth it to be so very patient and not rush her too much.

 

 

That is so true. Its a thought I, and many others here, should remember when we are working with our greys. They are really worth the effort arent they?

[Acappella]

Our Dorian's do seem to have some similar issues, don't they? My guy has been here more than 1/2 a year and sometimes it feels like progress is sooo slow. He will let me pet/scratch him anywhere (when he's in the mood of course) but that took a very long time. I was visiting him consistently in the pet store for over a year before I brought him home. They take a long time to trust. How much of your grey's history do you know? It helps me to know how to approach Dorian because I know what's frightened him in the past.

 

We had a game that we still play that seems to snap him out of a cranky mood and that got him more used to being touched by me. In a happy, excited voice, I tell him "I'm going to touch your beak, I'm gonna do it, I'm going to touch your beak, then I put a finger through the bars and lightly touch it. Then I say "I did it, I touched your beak!" At the start the touch happened so fast he didn't have a chance to amputate my finger! As he started to like this game then I would start with the beak, then say "I'm going to touch your tail etc. . ." because it's a body part you can touch quickly that's furthest away from the beak of pain! It took a long time, but now he lets me touch him all over, head, wings, legs, belly ... We've even moved on to kisses on the beak, wings and tail! When he's grumpy and I have to put an apendage into his territory, we go right back to the beginning with the beak game. After a few touches he often forgets that he was mad!

 

I also think it helps that I tell him what I'm going to do before I do it. If I'm coming into the room carrying something big that might scare him, like a basket full of laundry, I tell him before I enter the room that he's safe and nothing's going to hurt him. I learned this lesson when I was carrying my computer tower into the office and the big black box scared the dickens out of him and he startled off his perch, which scared both of us! Same thing with sticks. Before I get the vacuum wand or the broom out to clean up around his cage, I just tell him 'here comes the broom, it won't hurt you'. All this might sound daft, but he's gotten soooo much better.

 

Right now I'm trying to get him used to a new perch I want to put in his cage, so it's on the floor and I move it closer to the cage every day. That's worked for a short manzanita perch and a big concrete perch that he was convinced at first was a bird-killing device. As I type, he's perched on it talking his head off. I'm also moving his smaller cage, the one I want to take him outside in, closer all the time. I plan to get it close enough that I can link it by a perch to his big cage, then just let him come over and inspect it on his own time. Hopefully we'll be having trips outside in it by the end of the month!

 

We still have a long way to go, but plenty of time to get there.

Have fun with your girl. Maybe we can form a Dorian support group!

 

p.s I wimped out on the vet visit and payed for one to make a house call because his beak really needed attention and I was no where near able to get him out of his cage and to the vet without major trauma to us both!

[goldn1]

We're going on our second month with our Dorian, which when I think about where he/she was and where we are now is amazing progress! I need to learn to be grateful for the small steps! Ours is a 10 year old who for her (I always refer to her as a SHE, even though we really have no idea, lol) first 7 years was reportedly cage bound by an elderly woman who was terrified of her. For the next three years she was with a woman who seemed well intentioned but from what I've learned did more harm than good. Dorian was given no choices about anything ever. She was always toweled out of her cage and had her toes pinched to keep her under control. She is terrified of sticks, and although she's getting better she is still very scared of hands, and towels ARE evil bird eating monsters :angry: . I don't think she'd had a new toy or perch in years,and she is coming around but she's not too sure change is a good thing yet. We've pretty much learned we have to give her options, but if we leave the old stuff in her cage she will hang from the bars rather than use the new perches or toys....we've rearranged her cage several times weeding out the old things so that she has the option of which new toy or perch to use but the old things are temporarily disappearing until she gets used to the new things as well. She REFUSES to eat anything besides zupreem fruit flavored pellets and seed, and a few select treats. Doesn't matter how long I leave other food in her cage, or how much of it she sees me eating, she's not touching it unless it's to throw it out of the cage on to the floor, lol. She's almost as stubborn as I am!

 

The touching game sounds like a great idea.....might be a good way to get past her beak which she does allow us to touch (at our own risk, of course).

 

Btw, update on the oinking......in my desperation to get the oinking to stop I tried other animal sounds....so now we're up to "oink, oink, oink, QUACK"! :silly:

 

We don't have an avian vet within an hour of us here so I'm sure a house call here would rival the national debt .

[Acappella]

Ok, here's an update and another cry for help. Dorian was startled off his perch a couple of days ago, by what I don't know. So I grabbed the opportunity, and the bird, and did some step-up training. I even got him to let go and step onto his table-top perch for the first time ever. We were in my living-room and in my office.

See. Doesn't he look content, like a very happy, tail-wagging, preening, well-behaved boy. Well, he's barely let me near him while he's on the outside of the cage since then. Won't even take an almond out of my hand. I tried putting my hand between him and a treat & got a shaking, growling nutbar. As soon as I get near him he climbs to a part of the cage where can hang on for dear life. What should I do? I can't just wait for his next unexpected adventure to the floor, and I don't want to make him more hand shy than he is right now. Am I down to towelling him to get him off/out of the cage. Can anyone recommend a training site/dvd/book that deals with older birds. I love the little b*#@%*! so much and I want to be able to take him elsewhere in the house and outside with me this summer, but it feels like one step forward, two back.

[bettyboop]

Johnny ,

I like your advice!!!!!

BettyBoop

[goldn1]

Acapella,

 

I feel your frustration. We're in the same boat. We're just waiting Dorian out and hoping that with every good experience she'll remember that and less of the bad ones. It's going to take a long, long time I'm afraid, but it's going to be worth it! And it may never happen, which is a reality I have to get used to.

 

Hugs, from one frustrated Dorian owner to another .

 

Pam

[bettyboop]

Hi goldn 1,

I also have a rehomed CAG , which has been here exactly two months today .

Two months is not near enough time for these guys .

It might take months like our Grey before this one took 8 months before he would step up .

Your bird was cage bound for 7 years , it might take a long , long time to undo that baggage .

Just be patient , like the rest of us are trying to be .HA HA.

I see no reason to say that any bird is bad , look how this poor thing has been abused .

Who knows what they have been through ? Greys are very sensitive.

Kind Regards,

BettyBoop

[goldn1]

bettyboop,

 

I'm trying to be patient, it was never one of my strong suits.....lol. I know that it's going to take a very long time for her to overcome all of the things she's been through, if it ever happens. Either way, we love her more than I thought possible and she's with us for good. She's made amazing progress in two months, and makes more every day. The most important thing to me is that she is safe and cared for and will never have to go through those things again, and that someday she realizes this.

 

Hugs,

 

Pam

[lovemyGreys]

I have heard good things on this book.. I do personally like the author

 

The Second-Hand Parrot (Paperback)

by Mattie Sue Athan .

[bettyboop]

Pam , I was not being critical , I can tell you are a very loving , good care taker and she is soooo lucky to have you. I also have a new guy and I know what it is like , he is very trainable but at his pace .LOL..

Another good book is COMPANION PARROT BY Sally Blanchard . You can purchase from Amazon or her website COMPANIONPARROT.COM.

It is a great book and her website is helpful also .Keep in touch ,

Hugs

Mary

[goldn1]

Mary,

 

I know you weren't , didn't take it that way .

 

I have the book Tracy recommended, but realized I haven't read it since the day after we got Dorian and should probably re-read it just to make sure I'm still on track with what we're doing. I will check out the one you suggested too, I'm open to suggestions at this point.

 

Acapella,

 

Any progress with Dorian?

[bettyboop]

Yes Pam I understand we all need suggestions .LOL..I bought a new play stand for Sammy and he won't go near it .

Mary

[goldn1]

Oh, maybe we should have a "forum" sale for all the stuff we've bought that they won't touch......I have a playstand too.....and a bunch of toys she couldn't care less about....not to mention different foods.

 

Pete teased me that I'm going to keep buying birds until I find ones that will use all the stuff I've bought for Dorian...hehehe.

[bettyboop]

Oh my , I have two and I do notneed or want another .LOL

Mary

[Acappella]

An update today. I decided Dorian was leaving his cage even if I had to towel him. It was just too nice outside to be down in the basement. I chased him around the cage outside, using my arms to herd him onto his cage door, then forced him to the end of the door until he had nowhere to go but my hand. (Much biting, growling, shaking and screaming). He stepped up from hand to hand for awhile, then I put him in his small cage and took him upstairs and out to the front porch.

 

Doesn't look too traumatized does he? I don't understand his body language. He was shaking most of the time, but also preening, yawning, stretching, beak grinding and shaking his tail. Is he scared, relaxed, or confused?

 

Anyway, we were out there about an hour. You can see he's back in the corner of the porch where he was sheltered from the breeze. I just sat beside him and talked to him, told him what all the sounds were. Then I decided it was time to go in. I took him into the kitchen, gave him fresh water and a treat while I ate supper beside him. Then I opened the door and tried to get him to step-up. Here we go again with all the hysterical behaviour, plus copious biting. My poor hands and arms. He finally made a tactical error and climbed outside to get higher, at which point I put the cage on the floor and using my arms to corner him, forced him to step-up. Lots of praise and happy voice. Stepped him down onto the table (where he promptly pooped on dad's crossword, I'm in big trouble), then stepped him up again. Now I know there's only a problem when I try from one of his cages. After about 25 repeats, with lots of praise and happy sounds every time he did as he was told, he was still growling at my hand, but one foot was up by the end of the growl, so I'm cautiously optimistic that he's realized I'm the one in charge here. Hope he remembers tomorrow. Now it's early to bed for both of us!

[danmcq]

What a wonderful thing to do for Dorian, to get him out in the sun and a scenic view of the great outdoors.:-) Obviously you love him tons to go through literally all that pain to do so.

 

It sounds like a wonderful hour and just one of many more outings to come, if I am reading you correctly. Reading the determination you have to get him out and about. Along with "forcing" him to submit to the step-up commands with the willingness to "Take a Hit" to get him too, will eventually win his respect and compliance more and more often.

 

You asked: "Is he scared, relaxed, or confused?"

 

Answer: YES