Help required with partially aggressive bird

[Q9550]

Hi There,

 

My girlfriend has a 10 year old African Grey named Nonsense, because this bird loves to make nonsense all the time. We have been dating for 4 years, my girlfriend and i not the bird lol, so basically i know this bird for 4 years. To be quite honest i never really paid much attention to it and was never really interested in it much, just the occasional hello and giving it treats now and then when i visited my girlfriend.

 

About 2 years ago my girlfriend moved to a different city along with nonesense. So i did not see my girlfriend or the bird that often. I have now recently moved in with my girlfriend and have more time to spend with the bird.

 

Now i really enjoy talking to nonesense and feeding her treats. This is the reason for this post.

 

Let me provide you with some history about Nonesense. As a baby she was never subjected to any form of training and she was never socialized. My girlfriend always looked after her played with her and talked to her. She was allowed out of cage time and would walk out herself and when she had enough she would go back in herself. She was also tormented a lot by my girlfriend's brother. When he was younger he would bang her cage and throw water at her and all sorts of idiotic childish things but that has stopped for a long time. She hasn't been out her cage for a very long time and even if you leave the door open she wouldn't walk out.

 

So now i need your help, I really fell in love with this bird and i want her to be the best she can be. It saddens me that she is stuck in her cage all day and her past life is my motivation to build her a new and better one. She is not afraid of my girlfriend, if my girlfriend presents the back of her hand to the cage the bird would touch it with her beak but given the opportunity she would definitely bite her finger. I can get near the cage and sit down and talk to her give her treats(her favorite is peanuts) she approaches me and doesn't seem to mind me much unless i get near the door then she starts biting the bars.

 

I really want to change this birds life around and i want her to be able to come out her cage and enjoy herself. At this stage i'm fine with her never doing tricks or never talking on cue etc i just really want her to enjoy life rather then being stuck in her cage eating peanuts all day.

 

I have read a few guides on clicker training and target training and i have tried to implement these. Since i started living with my girlfriend, about 3 weeks now, i have managed to do the following:

 

She is clicker conditioned.

She is target trained in her cage only.

 

She will not come out the cage so i cannot move on to step up training and if i reach into the cage she is ever ready to draw blood, has been done in the past.

 

What can i do to get her out her cage.

P.S her wings are not clipped.

 

I really do hope you can help me and her.

 

Kind Regards.

[katana600]

Thank you for joining our forum and for taking an interest in Nonsense. The work you do with her will bring great rewards for both of you. The first thing I would recommend is to start offering her a few bits of healthy foods while you eat your meals. Just drop almonds (in the shell, or cracked), pine nuts (unshelled), a bit of scrambled egg, steamed green vegetables, cut up fresh uncooked carrots, broccoli etc. in her dish and then go to your meal. She may ignore your offerings. Just remove them after a while without making a fuss and keep trying. Make some oatmeal, you can use almond milk to thin it a bit and try offering that on a spoon if she will tolerate it. Cook some small beans and add a few drops of red palm oil, offer her some warm food to see if she will respond to that. Don't use salt on her food, don't feed her any avocado or chocolate. Read the threads in "Bird Food" for more ideas. Fresh corn on the cob can be cut into rounds, then quartered and offered to her. If you can get fresh red palm nuts, that is a food she would get in the wild.

 

 

Talking to her, gaining her trust are the most important things you are doing for her. She has a reason not to trust humans and it will take some time. Showing her kindness and respect will help tremendously. Give her choices of things to play with. She may like tearing up paper, small wooden toys, drinking straws, lightweight "cardboard" like cereal boxes, paper towels and things like that. You can thread them through the bars of her cage. If you can get her a stainless steel bell from a bird store or online, that might interest her. It may take a long time for her to show interest. Just because she rejects something initially doesn't mean she doesn't like it, she may not know what to do with it. Show her by playing with it a little bit away from her cage.

 

Biting is a learned behavior and the best thing you can do initially is avoid giving her an opportunity to "communicate" her displeasure in that manner. Work to find positive reinforcement for the times she tolerates you in her presence. My best times with Miss Gilbert initially were after dark when I could open her cage, let her come out on her own and just allow her to get a feel for her freedom. If you set up a routine where you do the same things at the same time, it will help her to learn you are predictable. If you have short sessions with her near bed time, then dim the lights gradually and tell her it is time to go night night, or time to go in her house, she will learn to go back inside to go to bed. She probably will naturally go back inside her cage when you approach because it is her safety zone. If she doesn't you can turn off the lights and give her some time to go back inside. Luckily for me, I never had to resort to forcing Miss Gilbert to go back to her cage. By working with her in the evening, she wanted to go back inside her cage as darkness approached.

 

If your girlfriend is tolerated for changing food and water, cleaning her cage and such, let her do those things and try not to force new changes until Nonsense has had time to see you are her friend. One thing about offering her your hand, do it with a closed fist at first so she has less skin to damage if she does go in for a bite and learn her body language so you don't push her too far too fast. You do have an advantage that Nonsense has known you for a long time and you have been a consistent, friendly face. Now that you are housemates, she may learn that you are her friend.

 

Others will have more ideas. I have limited experience with greys in general, just one long term tough girl who is just beginning to show me her sparkling personality after five long years of offering her the best of myself. It is worth the time and you won't regret it. Thanks again for joining us to give Nonsense a better way of life.

[Q9550]

Thanks for the reply katana600

 

I try as much as possible to give her a varied diet. When i come home from work i usually chop up a few fruits and veggies for her like carrots, lettuce, peppers, chilli, pears *loves them* (not avocado), apples, bananas and whatever else i can find in there thats good for her. My girlfriend complains to me that i pay more attention to nonsense then her lol Nonesense does allow me to change her water and her food and she is totally unaffected by my presence while doing this i think that she knows i come bearing gifts.

 

I have read a lot of information regarding african greys and have really put in the time and effort to understand how the think and behave, which is why i never force interaction with her when its not wanted. After her supper i usually sit next to the cage and do some targeting training with her, she loves peanuts like you wont believe, and she enjoys the training. Funny enough she will not bite me when i offer her peanuts. I hold it between my thumb and index finger and offer it to her through the bars i can hold it there and all she's interested in is getting the peanut she never tries to go for my finger. If she doesn't want me near her she puffs up her neck and head feathers and i just walk away she seems to calm down after that then i will just talk to her from a distance. She never use to talk in my presence before but now she is a lot more talkative. I take it as a good sign.

 

She loves tearing up the paper on her cage floor so now i replaced it with grit paper, she does tear that up sometimes and she bangs her beak on the floor too. She has two hanging toys in her cage which she loves and PROTECTS, you only have to look at her toy and shes jumps on it like "get your own this is mine" hahah

 

With regards with letting her out the cage, we have tried leaving the cage open for her but she refuses to come out even if we are in another room, but my biggest fear is that once shes out she might not want to go back in and since her wings are not clipped it could cause a problem trying to get her back in and potentially damage our relationship even more.

 

Nonsense is quite a clever bird and she knows when we getting ready to leave the house, if she hears us changing in the room she says "goodbye" and once we approach the front door "Goodbye i love you" at night when we watching TV if she is not covered she will say "Goodnight" and i take it as a cue to cover her up.

 

I really hope i can get her to stop biting and get out of her cage. I know its not going to be easy but with the help and support of you guys i know we will get there eventually.

[Timbersmom]

I would keep leaving the door open when you are there. I think eventually she will come out. I understand your fear that she won't go back in, but she probably will, since that is her "safe" place. Though it may not seem like it, you are making progress. Greys take a long time to trust, which is why you hear "grey time" on here all the time. Take it slow and easy like you have been, and let her set the pace on interactions. One day she'll surprise you!

[Acappella]

Read the sticky in this room titled "Body Language Most Frequently Seen". It will help you predict when she's on the road to a bite and to prevent it.

[Greywings]

You have begun taking the winding road to gaining her trust and you have taken learning approach. It will pay off if you keep on the way you are going.

[judygram]

She needs time but leave the door open and eventually she will come out, be sure to engage in some interesting activity in the same room as her cage and she will get curious enough to venture out and see what is going on but do not rush her, let her go at her own pace and she will surprise you one day. Grey time is very slow so if progress seems to take forever then you are doing it correctly. Remember patience is a virtue.

[Q9550]

Hi all,

 

So great news and not so great news.

 

On Saturday morning i decided to open up the cage for her and see if she will come out. I opened the front flap and fed her a few nuts while i was there, also spoke to her for a bit then left her with the door open and went to watch tv. To our surprise in about 5 minutes she was out climbing up her cage i was super excited but i tried not to show it, we just talked to her from the lounge while she was perched on top of her cage. I eventually got closer and was able to feed her some nuts i could see she was shaking and that she was a bit afraid so i just left her. She spent about half an hour on top of her cage looking around and walking about on her cage. We needed to leave to get some shopping done so we managed to get her back in by leaving a few nuts on the cage floor. I was super excited that she was comfortable enough to come out ans say hello.

 

So on Sunday morning we did the same. Opened the door fed her a few nuts spoke to her and again she was out even sooner this time. Left her to chill for a bit then i approached her with some treats. I eventually managed to do some target training with her out the cage. I think we bout had a good time and i could see she wasn't as scared. She was out for about 2 hours just sitting and looking talking occasionally. I then needed to go get my hair cut so i tried the same method to get her back in but she refused to get in she was out for another half hour and i just had to leave her out her cage and go for my hair cut. When i got back i found her in the exact spot perched on top of the cage. She refused to go back in, i think she got a taste of freedom and loved it. Shes now out the cage for about 5 hours with no sign of going back in. We had dinner plans with some friends so i knew i couldn't leave her out the cage for that long. My girlfriend managed to "scare" her back into the cage using a broom that nonesense hates. I know this was not the best method for getting her back in but it was the only option we had at the time. We tried to towel her but she threatened us back by attempting to fly, i think she doesn't realize that she can fly yet so we didn't want her to figure out she can otherwise that was going to be major drama.

 

So now i'm not sure if this whole ordeal has traumatized her and now she will not want to come out, on the other hand i don't want to have the same issue of getting her back in if she still decided to come out.

 

Thats her on her cage:

 

[Timbersmom]

It is great news that Nonsense is feeling more confident and coming out. Good going!

 

Getting Timber to go back in the cage when I have to leave was a struggle here too. That's just part of it. They understand language, so be sure and use the same phrase when it's time to go in. For instance, with Timber it is "time to kennel up Timber" (thanks to my boys). I also tell him what I'm doing, like "I have to go to work, time to kennel up Timber, I'll be back." Or "I'll be back in an hour, time to kennel up Timber." In time, they learn that going in is a temporary state, you will be back, and they will be out again. Same thing at night, "time for bed, kennel up Timber." I always try to communicate what's going on and they learn exactly what those words mean in time. You have probably already noticed that they are very intelligent.

 

That said, even now there are times (they are rare but happen) when I'm really in a hurry and don't have time to coax him and he doesn't want to go in for whatever reason. In the early days, like you I had to threaten the towel (he hates it). I never had to use it, I just keep it in a corner and would go pick it up and head his direction. He would head inside immediately. Now, all I have to do is say "kennel up or I'm getting the towel" and he goes in. He knows I'm serious, because I don't use it often. Over use would make it an empty threat.

 

Most greys love routine. You have made a good start with putting the treat in the cage. Try continuing to do that with the phrase you want Nonsense to understand when it is time to go in. It takes time and patience but you'll get there!

 

Other members will have more ideas also I'm sure.

[Q9550]

Hi timbersmom,

 

Thanks for the advise i will definitely try that in future. I want her to keep coming out and explore her world but at the same time i dont want her going back in to be a traumatic experience, and now my girlfriend is worried about her coming out because her wings are not clipped. Sometimes my girlfriend is harder to work with than nonesense lol I am going to try and get someone from vet to clip her wings this weekend at least then i can start letting her out again.

 

I think nonesense isn't that upset anymore about being forced back in, she stills talks to me and still accepts treats from me so i think we fine for now.

[Acappella]

Clipping wings is a hot button topic around here. You have to do what's best for your situation. I will just say this, don't let clipped wings lull you into a false sense of security. A bird with clipped wings can still get loft if they're frightened and can be out a door or window in a second. You still have to be careful with open doors and windows. My last piece of clipping advice is to get someone who is VERY experienced with clipping to do it. The optimal is an avian vet, but some members here have a trusted groomer who they trust to clip. It's not something any vet tech can do, and a bad clip can have a bad psychological impact on a bird, even when they're fully feathered but not flighted like Nonsense and my bird.

 

I'm glad Nonsense isn't holding a grudge. Lol. I agree with Timbersmom about routine and verbal cues. Pick a phrase (around my house it's "Dorian, time to go home"), and then another phrase to let her know how long you'll be gone. For example, I tell Dorian "momma's gotta go to the store"=short time away, or "momma's gotta go to the doctor"= longer time away. A few simple phrases like that will reassure Nonsense about how long you'll be away and she'll be locked up. It'll help if you and your girlfriend can use the same phrases. You're making her world predictable.

 

You're doing a great job with Nonsense. She's obviously braver than Dorian, in that she's already venturing out of her cage and it took Dorian literally years to reach that milestone. When he did eventually venture out he occasionally wouldn't want to go in when I needed him to. I was able to 'herd' him in using my arms as he was still totally hand/arm shy. Maybe you could direct Nonsense into her cage using a towel or a perch. That wouldn't work on the cage I have now as it's taller than I am, plus he's not afraid of my arms anymore so he'd totally bite me, but your cage doesn't look too tall. I also used a perch mounted on the inside of the door. He would get on that perch, then I could just shut the door and voila, he's in his cage. As you can tell, your strategy has to change as your relationship with your bird, and her relationship with her world, changes. That's one thing about these guys, they're never boring!

[Timbersmom]

Once they understand you aren't going to hurt them and it's temporary, they don't hold a grudge for long. In fact, some start thinking it is a game (ie Sterlings video of Gracie in the aviary). I'd think long and hard about the clipping. I understand your concerns. If you are determined to do that, you might ask about a trim rather than a clip? It still allows flight but slows them down.

[neoow]

Well done you for stepping up and having the courage to work with Nonsense! I wish I had someone available who would be willing to work with Alfie. He's absolutely fine with me and I have no major issues with him or anything- but it would be nice if I could find someone willing to get to know him and put some time in with him so he has another playmate. I'm sure he gets bored of it just being me sometimes!

 

As others have mentioned- wing clipping is a little bit of a controversial subject and you'll probably see many different opinions about it. Alfie's wings were clipped (lightly and on one side) when he was younger. It was done twice... and to be honest- it didn't make much difference. As soon as he worked out his balance, he could fly just as well as before. So I decided the stress of having it done just wasn't worth it- plus I always feel like asking a bird not to fly is like asking a dog not to wag its tail. I'm very mindful about doors and windows before letting Alfie out of his cage and he's allowed to fly as he pleases whilst out (though I obviously keep an eye on him to make sure he's not getting into any mischief!). It can be a job to get them back in their cage- I have this problem with Alfie. He will fly out of my reach knowing full well I can't get him. So I have a long wooden perch (which came with his cage) that I use. When this appears he will often fly to another point... but eventually he knows that it's time for bed and will either step on the perch, fly to me or just climb down the cage and back inside. Occasionally he will give me the run around and it can take half an hour or so of gentle persuasion and bribery- but he is getting a lot better as time goes on. Yesterday he was sitting on his cage door so I put the perch between him and the cage, so he just climbed down the inside of the door and into the cage. I was amazed... he went straight in with no hassle at all!

 

Do you know if Nonsense can actually fly? If she's been in the cage for a long time it might be that she doesn't really know how to fly properly. It might be a case of letting her 'find her wings' so to speak, before assessing whether or not to have her wings trimmed.

I'll echo other comments about getting a professional to do it though. A light trim would probably be enough if you were going to get them trimmed. But do some research beforehand and make sure they know what they're doing. Otherwise it could end up being a traumatic experience for both yourself and nonsense.

[Q9550]

This is exactly why i love this forum, you always learn something new. I honestly did not know that wing clipping was such a hot topic. I only want to do whats best for nonsense and i assumed getting her wings clipped was a good idea to protect her. I will definitely think long and hard before getting her clipped and if i decide to do it it will be done by a professional and just a small trim.

 

@neoow lol im sure alfie loves you to bits and may even be happy he doesn't have to share you with anyone, my girlfriend and i sometimes fight for nonsense's attention. We will be sitting and watching tv and then nonsense will talk so we both will want to talk to her so then we both will get a turn to say something and whoever nonsense replies to wins lol It sounds silly i know but its fun for all three of us. I like to think nonsense likes me a bit more, the girlfriend will disagree lol, because we have this whistling game that we play and she will only do this with me and we don't know why. We tried to get her to do this with others but she refuses not even with my girlfriend, i like to think she knows its our special game hahaha. So basically nonsense will whistle and i need to copy that and if she feels i got it right she will try a different whistle and so on and so on until she does one that i cannot copy then she wins, but what i find amazing is that she starts off easy then the whistles get progressively harder. She is so intelligent. There is never a dull moment when she is near.

 

I know she doesn't know how to fly or when we tried to put her in the cage she would of. What she does is flaps her wings and uses it to kind of like jump up the cage instead of flying, hard to explain exactly what she does but its definitely not flying.

[Acappella]

If you go to the health room, Dave007 did a comprehensive 4 part sticky post there titled Wing Clipping where you can educate yourself on the controversary. It's well worth the read. It's not too far in the past that wing clipping was common and it was hard to find a breeder that would sell an un clipped bird, citing safety. Now there's a wider recognition that just because a bird is clipped doesn't mean it can't fly, particularly if startled. Read the posts, then you'll be better equipped to make a decision about Nonsense. Bless you for being open to new information. <3

[Luvparrots]

Flying for for my parrots is very important to me. That's me, of course, not everyone. I have never clipped my greys although my CAG was lightly clipped when I got him. They both love to fly from room to room after me and I am very careful to lock all outside doors and have screens on them. I live alone so my parrots are safe. if I had small children or an "open" house, things, of course would be different.

[Greywings]

I think their physical development keys on being flighted, one of the Greys who ended up with me has lost the last joint of her wing to a bad clip. Result of that injury is balance issues and being easily frightened then falling off the perches.

[Q9550]

Thanks for all the replies guys, I have decided against clipping her wings. I feel the comments made on the subject was pretty valid and since she doesn't really know how to fly just yet i rather not clip her. I usually always take precautions before letting her out her cage, remove any dangerous items, close all windows and doors and cover up anything that looks like it might give her a scare.

 

I really want to start training her to step up but going to take things slow and at her pace.

[neoow]

Yeah, definitely take it slow and steady. She'll let you know when she wants to try something new. You're doing a great job already by taking an interest, asking questions and listening to the responses.

[birdhouse]

Hi Q9550. Welcome to GF. I think it's really wonderful that you've taken this much interest in Nonsense. It may take a little (Grey) time, but I'm pretty sure you'll be surprised by how she'll reward you. They are truly amazing creatures to live with!

 

Re wing clipping, I'm a No vote, too ...99% of the time. Safety first. If you don't feel like it's a good idea at the moment & especially since there's some new & "startling" changes that might spook Nonsense, that seems to me like a very legitimate call. But it may also be a contributing factor toward why a bird is generally fearful & aggressive. Remember that flying is what makes a bird a bird. And it's just such a gift to be denied them. So maybe it's something to think about working towards long term?

 

The thing I'd really like to suggest is a change in Nonsense' living space. If you look thru the "Show us your Cage" sticky http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?143481-Show-Us-Your-Cage!

you'll see (like everything else) a difference of opinion about what is a healthy sized cage for a Grey long term. Most agree it really should be at least 23" deep by 32" wide to make room for 3 or more perches & multiple toys. 24" x 36" even better.

 

I've gotten many awesome used cages for cheap. So this doesn't have to be an expensive proposition. But it is a worthwhile investment. When the cage is too small, they pretty much sit in one spot & do nothing all day long. Since they're too intelligent & emotional to live that way, it usually changes their disposition a lot. It will cause health problems long term. It can lead to plucking & in extreme cases self-mutilation.

 

Store bought parrot toys can also be pretty expensive. Especially since the best toys are almost always the ones that get destroyed fastest. But, here's a couple of books that you can down load. They'll give you some idea's on how to use every day things that won't cost anything much & give Nonsense something to get her active again.

 

https://featheredangels.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/theparrotenrichmentactivitybookversion1-0.pdf

 

https://featheredangels.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/theparrotenrichmentactivitybookversion2-0.pdf

 

A word of caution, though. Nonsense might actually be afraid of any of these things at first. Many Greys think everything new is scary. So if you make up toys in front of her, start small & leave them where she can see them for a while, it might help. When you introduce them to her cage, hang them on the outside, down the bottom & see if she freaks or just acts unhappy. If she freaks remove it immediately & put it away from the cage but still in sight for a week. Then try again. The same if she looks just unhappy or nervous & it lasts more than an hour.

 

Don't be discouraged if the process takes months. My Grey was a mess when I first got him. There were things that it has taken him as long as a year to interact with. Then suddenly, they are his new favorite toy. After 25 yrs, I give up trying to figure it out. It's a grey thing.

Edited April 29, 2016 by birdhouse

[Q9550]

Thanks for the welcome birdhouse,

 

Yes i think the clipping is a bad idea, thanks to everyone here for all the information regarding this, i agree that a bird should be able to fly and my reasoning for clipping is that i thought it would be a good idea for her safty but i see now that there is more cons vs pros. I feel as if i was being selfish trying to clip her as it would mostly only help me and not her. I'm just glad that i joined this forum before actually getting her clipped.

 

Funny you should mention her cage, i was actually just looking into getting her a new cage. The problem with that is we are not really allowed to keep any pets at the complex we live in and as much as i would love to get her a huge cage with all sorts of fun things and perches for her, its not really on the cards at the moment. My goal for her is when we finally get our own house i would really like to build her a nice play house outside for her to enjoy and get a nice cage for her to go to bed to.

 

She seems pretty happy in her medium sized space and our relationship is still a bit rocky so i don't want to make any drastic changes as yet.

 

As for toys, I cant walk past a pet store without buying her a toy lol i recently bought her this mixed seed toy kind of thing, it was just bigger then the length of my palm, i showed it to her and she freaked so i left it on the tv stand where she could see it, the next day i approached her with it and she was a bit reserved but eventually started pecking on it so then i hung it up inside her cage for her i went out the flat for not even half an hour and when i got back it was gone, she had completely destroyed it and was sitting next to it like "Dude i have no idea what happened to it i was just sitting here promise" hahahaha she kills me really.

 

Nonsense is a whiss she is afraid of anything new even food, when i first tried target training i read that greys LOVE millet spray so i went out and got some. Tried to feed it to her and she freaked out so i pretended to eat it and offered her again she took it but immediately through it out the cage, she does eat it now though but prefers peanuts.

 

Sorry im just going on and on lol but she just amazes me and its never boring interacting with her.

I have downloaded the pdf's and will read them later.

 

Thank you all for the awesome advice nonsense and i really appreciate all the advice we can get.

[Timbersmom]

Ha to the millet. Timber still won't touch it! They are very individual in their tastes. I see recipes and ideas here on the forum and thing "oh Timber would like that." Not. Then there are things he does like that don't seem to go with the "norm." It's always a matter of experimentation to see what they like. Timber reminds me of my children. One of my boys loved broccoli, the other still won't eat anything green (he is 23). Greys are just as individualistic in their tastes as people in my estimation. Cheese seems to be a universal favorite, which is why we call it "birdie crack," but you have to really limit how much of that you give them because it isn't good for them. We save cheese for those times when we really need a lure.