Have done everything backwards while adding old cag to 'flock'.

[Pam Pam]

Hi,

 

I want to start by confessing I inadvertently have done almost everything you guys have advised people NOT to do. Then after all those mistakes, I found your forum. That being said, here is a synopsis of my stupidity.

 

I hand raised my 16 year old hen. When paramedics arrived at our house late one night for a human emergency, she pulled all her beautiful red tail feathers out. I knew it was from stress, but when things settled down, a couple of weeks later, one whole wing was missing the flight feathers. She actually didn't pull, she chewed them off.

 

I thought maybe two things were happening simultaneously. Maybe she was stressed AND since she was 16 maybe she was wanting a mate. I knew an elderly man who knew a lot about parrots from a breeding standpoint. He told me he had seen parrots burst their chests open from hitting the floor (dead). And he confirmed she would probably do better if she had a mate. I cried, but made the decision to sell her to a breeder so she could do what nature was calling her to do.

 

I pulled two feathers upon the advice of my breeder friend to get her sexed. I was going to have criteria which had to be met by whomever to be sure Asia would be in the best possible place. I had a list of breeders from my elderly friend. I talked to all of them. But before I got the results of the sexing, Asia finished chewing off the rest of her wing feathers.

 

Now she was so ugly no one would want her. One of the breeders said they were afraid of birds that chewed or plucked their feathers. I was back at square one worrying about Asia dying. After feeling I had no other recourse, and because I loved her and wanted her to survive, I made a decision to get a mate for her, put them together, and then once she was feathered out, I'd re-contact one person I had settled on as the best of the lot.

 

We spent about $400 on supplies to build a flight cage, complete with metal nest, knowing they might never mate. I knew a lot about breeding from my elderly friend and knew it could take years or maybe never. I didn't care if they mated or not. I just wanted Asia to get with a male so she'd grow those feathers back before she fell and hurt herself or died from being cold. Then once feathered, I'd find a home for her with the breeder I liked and hopefully one for the male, too.

 

I bought a male who I figured was older because he'd been passed around at least 3 times that the seller knew about. She repeatedly told me he was NOT a pet, but a breeder (which I figured he wasn't too good at either or the breeders wouldn't have been passing him around. lol) I was desperate for Asia to be happy. As I said, I didn't care if they bred or not. I'd borrowed a cage from the seller to keep him in and placed him across from Asia for a couple of weeks in the house.

 

Then, the flight cage-building project came to a screeching halt and it remains unfinished to this day. I don't think it will ever be used by us. Why? Asia had begun getting new pin feathers in after the male arrived. I was right that she needed a friend. But when I took her out to play, she lost her balance and fell 3 inches to the floor, bursting a pin feather. Blood went everywhere and I had to restrain her while I pulled it out.

 

I knew I couldn't put her outside in a strange place, unfamiliar cage, etc. or she'd surely fall, break a pin feather, and bleed to death! Maybe if they just could reside in the same cage, I thought, she would leave her feathers alone long enough for them to grow back? That became my new plan.

 

I caught the male by throwing a towel over him and moved him to her cage. I waited and watched to be sure he didn't hurt Asia or vice versa. She was very curious about him and approached him in what I thought was a very nice way, but he responded by raising his feathers and she retreated to her side of the cage. To be sure each had access to food and water, I gave each their own. They never interact, but take turns going for treats I put in what I hoped would be a shared space.

 

We went on vacation for a month and upon returning, Asia had a new set of bright red tail feathers coming in and 4 wing feathers! The male, who the breeder called John Wayne, was still keeping the same distance from Asia and Asia from him.

 

I found your forum before we went on vacation but by then I'd already made a ton of mistakes. Now I have two birds and have scrapped the breeding idea. I believe they can just be companions and Asia will be happy. Even with all the mistakes and wasted money on that 'breeding' cage, it seems everything worked out well.

 

Except for one thing, and that's where I could really use some expert advice. I want to make friends with the older male. I don't know exactly how to go about it, and even though we've 'broken the ice' we aren't buddies yet.

 

I don't believe John Wayne was always 'a wild bird, just a breeder'. He talks in an older man's voice, so I think his owner died and he got disposed of along with the dead man's other stuff. I'm not saying John Wayne's super sweet. I wouldn't be either if I'd been passed around and treated like an financial asset. But once upon a time he might have been sweet. I'm moving ahead like deep down he wants to be someone's pet again. He acts like he WANTS me to scratch him and he snakes his neck around while I'm playing with Asia. He stays calm when I get up close to where he is perched inside the cage. And at first I was able to stroke his beak or toes while having the safety of the cage bars between us.

 

One day he just happened to be close enough and I actually was able to scratch his neck through the cage. I was able to scratch for 4 or 5 glorious seconds before I got nervous and pulled my finger out. He just loved it! The next day, when I tried to scratch again, I got bitten (hard/blood). Not deterred, I continued to go farther and farther until we have reached a point where I need expert advice from people who love and understand birds rather than those who use long nets to catch them.

 

I am now able to open the door of their cage. Asia climbs right up top or I'll tell her to step up and place her up top. He watches but remains glued to his spot. He is fully feathered and could fly if he wanted to. I am now able to reach inside offering him different treats. Treats he used to throw down are accepted most of the time. Sometimes he gently mouths my fingers before taking a treat. I don't know for sure, but I think that's great progress and I love that he's wanting to trust me. If I have a treat in hand, I don't get struck at.

 

I know he would enjoy being out of the cage and I tried using a perch, but he freaked out. Today I tried my arm and I got bitten hard again (blood). I had moved my arm in toward him slowly as not to frighten him. He bit a couple of times and the last time drew blood. I stopped to take care of the cut and decided to try a glove. Asia went right up on my hand with the glove, but he again spazzed out.

 

I know he has had a slew of horrible experiences in his life. From his reactions I know he was chased with nets on the end of sticks and I know people caught him using gloves. My heart breaks for him and I want to let him know I will be kind to him like I believe his first, original owner was.

 

How do I get him to step up on my arm when he strikes at me? Also, if I just let him climb to the top of the cage by backing off, I'm afraid he'd fly around and hurt himself when I attempt to catch him to return him inside the cage. (I guess I could wait for him to go inside to eat and trap him that way).

 

I want him to step up on my arm. I will do whatever I have to do to win John Wayne over. Any advice is appreciated. Just like John Wayne, I'm a little sensitive myself so please don't fuss at me for all my mistakes. I know from the things I've read that I have done lots of wrong things. I'm afraid someone will tell me to separate them into two cages. They get along in the same cage and Asia is not chewing feathers. So even though I shouldn't have put them together initially, I did and now I am not going to separate them. I know from my breeder friend they won't breed unless they have a nest box, so that solves that problem. Plus they aren't 'going there' anyway. So, if we can agree to disagree on that one point about them remaining in the same cage, I am open to any other ideas any of you may have.

 

Thank you for reading this mini book.

 

I would be grateful for any suggestions you may have for me to get him to step up on my arm. And one day I want to scratch him without being eaten up. He's taking treats from my hand and not charging me. So he's a good bird. I just want him to be able to enjoy being scratched again and feel safe enough to be moved from place to place on my arm. I'm willing to go slllloooowww, but not sure what steps to take next. ???? Thank you.

[SRSeedBurners]

Why the resistance to separate them? All it takes is one good fight and you may lose one or both birds. Inside a cage there is nowhere to escape if someone gets the upper hand on the other. You could get one of those macaw type cages where they are side-by-side. It may even help to win John Wayne over by watching you interact with Asia from his separate quarters. He'll see the fun he's missing out on - maybe? Does Asia get a lot of time outside the cage?

 

It would scare me to house two Greys that didn't get raised together in close quarters. I've seen my little hand-raised baby do stuff that I never thought she would do (like wait till my back was turned to go rage on another bird). A large aviary is a different story to some extent. At leas there may be room to escape.

 

Ditch the gloves - you are going backwards with JW when you show up with those - especially since you know he's been handled badly while wearing them. Learn to read his body language and respect it. The fact that he's softly mouthing you says he's already somewhat trusting of you.

 

Getting him out of his cage is probably just going to be a matter of time tempting him by playing with Asia and treats. He'll respond eventually. One trick I used was attaching a perch to the door of the cage. It took around two weeks to get the bird to trust me enough to open the door with him on it but he eventually would stay perched while I opened the door and he was 'out of the cage'. Another two weeks and he would climb on the outside of the cage to come get treats.

[JeffNOK]

I also have ask the question about separating them. Why do you feel it is necessary to keep them in one cage together? You say they are "getting along". I am not sure exactly what that means, but a hand raised pet bird sharing a cage with a breeder male of still unknown temperament is a recipe for disaster. Sterling was not exaggerating when he mentioned potentially deadly consequences. I know you are sensitive and don't want to be fussed at. I hope we don't seem critical or judgmental, but our hearts' first priority is the well-being of your birds. Is getting another cage a financial burden? Is space an issue? I am just wondering what the reason is that you are taking this risk. I would not be able to live with myself if something terrible happened, and I hadn't said anything. I hope you will think long and hard about your decision to house them together. Building your relationship with JW might also go better if he had his own space.

[Pam Pam]

Thank you SterlingSL! I agree and did ditch the glove as soon as I saw his reaction to it. That's how I (believe I know) someone used them on him--because he was terrified of my hand with the glove.

 

I don't know why I want the two birds together so much. Maybe it is because I am putting myself in their place and I'd want to be caged with someone rather than in my own 'cell'. They've been together now since spring. They have never fussed at each other. I'm home all day so I have a lot of time to mess with them and if a fight broke out I'd know immediately. It makes me happy and they don't seem to mind so I just don't want to change them back into being solitary.

 

I love your idea to put the perch on the door and swing it out with him on it! What will I do if he begins to fly around the room rather than get on my arm? I am picturing him flying into walls or behind an appliance.

 

Asia has always had a wing clipped and she's never flown because I was always afraid she'd fly out the back door which is near her cage. One of my best friends had gotten a CAG at the same time I did and one day, after years and years of not flying, he just flew straight out the door, through the garage and was gone. We hunted and hunted for him. Never found him because by the time she got outside she didn't know which way he went.

 

A neighbor up the street lost hers by putting it on a perch and letting it stay outside. BUT, having said that, I'm ready to change. I'm leaving John Wayne's wings fully flighted and Asia's too. If they want to fly, they can. All the teenagers running in and out are gone and so I'm ready to change into a better bird mom and let them do what they want to, as long as I'm there to protect them.

 

Asia gets out daily if possible. She's out frequently, but I'd always put her back in her cage when I couldn't sit right there and interact or just watch her. I used to let her play on a tree away from her cage, and I'd leave her out all day till bedtime, but after my friend lost her bird, I stopped doing that.

 

Looking back, I'd been spending a lot of time at the hospital with my husband, who had 3 surgeries within 4 months. That, plus the ambulance noise is probably why she chewed her feathers. Or maybe hormones. I guess it doesn't matter now anyway. She's doing better and I'm not worried about Asia now.

 

Now I'm focused on becoming friends with John Wayne. Thank you for taking time to respond. I appreciate your help and I will immediately get a perch and attach it to the door! I can't wait to see what happens when the door is open and he is 'free'. It's kind of scary for me, too, and I'm sure my adrenaline will be pumping.

 

I'm going to try to figure out how to use this forum more efficiently. I'm like a kindergartener trying to navigate in here. I know there's a wealth of knowledge here! Thank you for your advice. I'll take it and use it to get started today!

[Pam Pam]

Jeff,

 

I feel like they are safe together. I feel like John Wayne was a pet once. He was definitely in someone's home as he makes phones ring, cats and kittens meow, talks too much in that man's voice. He makes too many sounds to have been a wild breeder and he's comfortable around dogs, kids, etc.

 

One woman who breeds them told me that the hand raised birds don't adapt well as breeders. That could be why John Wayne didn't work out for the breeding community? His reactions and the other things I've said make me think I'm right about him having once been tame. I've seen breeding CAGs straight from Africa and they are scared to death of people. He's definitely not a

wild/breeder bird.

 

If they start to show any kind of negative attitude toward one another, I'll immediately separate them and go get another cage. I promise.

 

Just because he got labeled 'a breeder' by the seller doesn't make him one. I think, with advice from people in this forum who know how to win a bird's trust, that John Wayne will once again become a pet. I hope so, anyway.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Pam Pam

[JeffNOK]

Pam, it is probably true that long kept pet greys will be reluctant to breed. If they breed, they often distance themselves from people and become less loving companions. The fact that your family was going through the trauma of surgery and hospital stays likely contributed to stress and plucking. You mentioned in one of your posts that "Asia always had a wing clipped." Did you mean that Asia has just one wing clipped or both? I may have misunderstood, but if you choose to clip, it is best to have both wings clipped. The imbalance can be a problem.

[Timbersmom]

Will JW not come out of the cage at some point if you leave the door open? That is what I had to do when I rehomed my TAG. He was not about to step up, so I just left the door open and he eventually came out. Do you have another entrance/exit so that you could keep that door near their cage locked? Several forum members use their garage door only (for example) so the birds don't have a direct flight path out. I don't know how your house is set up so don't know if that is feasible.

 

As to how you get a flighted bird down (or out) I've seen others say to turn the lights off and darken the room as a last resort. They will retreat to the cage. Someone with experience correct me if I'm wrong on this. Timber could fly but won't so I don't have experience with it.

[Pam Pam]

I have had Asia so long that I've clipped both ways. I have clipped one wing and other times I'd clip both. As for the last time, I don't even remember.

 

At this point, Asia has three new feathers starting on one wing and one on the other and I don't intend to clip again. I'm leaving her fully flighted (if she leaves her feathers alone) and going to try to see what adventures that brings! lol

[Pam Pam]

I have been locking the door to the outside since I got John Wayne; when the door to the cage is open. Like now, I shut the cage door to come into the office to check my mail. I'll go back and open the door again and see if he will come out between now and dark. So far I've always been watching and intend to continue to watch to make sure if he comes out that nothing goes haywire. Asia is out right now, but I am not concerned about her going anywhere with no wing feathers.

 

Thank you, Timbersmom, for telling me the dark trick. I know chickens go back to their roosts, but I wasn't so sure about a 'new' parrot. I'm not going to call him a 'wild' or 'breeder' anymore because he just isn't wild and apparently not a breeder, either.

 

I was afraid he'd end up on top of the cage and I'd have to wait until he was starving for him to go back inside, scare him with a towel again, or stick out my arm and see what happened. I am going to go back in there now and stay until dark. I'll let you know tomorrow if he went in by himself. Here goes nothing....lol

[Greywings]

Patience is so important, allow him to be brave on his own when he is ready it may takes days it may take years. Remember how many years it has taken for him to get to this point and it may take a long time to relearn trust.

[Pam Pam]

Thank you, Greywings. Poor little guy. I just hate it that he has been passed around like he was only valued for his cash performance. Until I found this forum, I ignorantly thought all parrots reached 'maturity' and then were no longer capable of being a pet. Now I know that was a farce.

 

So are you saying I need to stop asking him to step up and stop asking him if he wants scratched, just back off completely? I don't want to just be the lady that feeds him. I want to be someone he trusts and hopefully his friend. I will be patient and I do back off when he begins showing signs of anxiety.

 

We used to have horses, who are also prey animals. It sounds to me like interacting with a parrot is kind of similar. Advance, retreat, advance, retreat until eventually a person can advance a tiny bit further one day, then retreat again while praising for the baby step of trust the horse shows. Is that what I need to do, or just butt out entirely and wait?

 

I'm learning from reading the posts. I just haven't read very many yet but as I read, I'm adjusting to the new information.

[Dave007]

So far, after reading your different posts in various places there's nothing you've said that would make me believe that your new bird wasn't a breeder at one time. Successful?, Unsuccessful? Who knows. He's behaving like a breeder, biting you when you're not looking. Acting like a cage bound bird? Definitely. Most breeders are kept in cages most of the time and when they DO have some freedom, they want very little to do with the people who own them.

Being shifted from home to home? Thousands of breeder pairs are constantly sold or traded, sometimes 2 or 3 or 4 times. Is this cruel? The huge majority of successful breeders are successful because they have little to no bonding with their owners. Where they live isn't important as long as the other mate is there. Therefore it's very easy to sell or trade with others. Are breeders aggressive? That's a common trait concerning breeders.

******* I'm not saying John Wayne's super sweet. I wouldn't be either if I'd been passed around and treated like an financial asset.***

 

I've done that frequently. The buyers were happy. I was happy and the birds didn't even know it was done because as long as they were allowed to be and do what they've always done and been, they really didn't mind their new living environment. They had a very minimal bond with me and a very minimal bond with the new owners and a huge bond with each other.

 

There's a world of difference between breeders and pets. The only thing breeders and pet greys have in common is the color of their feathers.

 

 

Breeder birds and pet greys living together in one cage? Well lets put it this way, feel lucky that the breeder bird hasn't already killed or maimed your pet grey. Even 2 pet greys shouldn't be kept together. They're possessive and jealous of their own things especially their cage which is actually his/her *home*

A pet grey is bonded to you and a breeder bird isn't and when a person tries to accomplish too much with a breeder that's trouble just waiting to happen especially when a breeder has traveled around in different environments.

Breeders talking which actually makes them pets at one time? --all greys ( breeders or pets if they have that ability or desire to talk using human words) will mimic hundreds of sounds that they hear enough. Why? They're the best mimics in the parrot kingdom. The mimicing means nothing. That's why greys are having long periods of time when they're alone in a cage will go thru their whole human and artificial sounds when no one is around. Their actual real talking comes when greys are talking to each other in parrotese.

 

Gloves---using gloves only creates one step backward concerning accomplishments that are made.

 

*****How do I get him to step up on my arm when he strikes at me? Also, if I just let him climb to the top of the cage by backing off, I'm afraid he'd fly around and hurt himself when I attempt to catch him to return him inside the cage. (I guess I could wait for him to go inside to eat and trap him that way). I want him to step up on my arm.*******

 

*******So he's a good bird. I just want him to be able to enjoy being scratched again and feel safe enough to be moved from place to place on my arm. I'm willing to go slllloooowww, but not sure what steps to take next. ???? Thank you.

 

This isn't mean't to be negative but what you want may not totally happen because of past history of not being physically involved with people.

 

I really don't know why you tend to disagree with that person who said he was breeder when you decided to take him. A huge majority of the time it's people who are selling their birds and telling potential buyers that the birds they're sell were never breeders!! The last thing that t he vast majority of people buying or adopting pre owned don't want are breeders. They want pet birds that they feel they have a chance with concerning heavy duty relationships.

 

*******I know he has had a slew of horrible experiences in his life. From his reactions I know he was chased with nets on the end of sticks and I know people caught him using gloves.*******

 

You know this simply by his reactions or have other people actually sat you down and positively told you these were honest facts??

 

Well, you've just heard part of the other side of owning and understanding breeders and pet greys. There's much more to know.

[katana600]

You have a lifelong relationship with Asia and have learned a lot through her. With John Wayne, you have a wild card. Not only are you dealing with his baggage, but also with the introduction of two mature adult greys. Some things may be similar, predictable and common to the Congo African Grey or to the Timneh African Grey in general but I believe just like humans, there is evolution, nature/nurture, and life experience that adds up to a totally unique and wonderful companion. I have had Miss Gilbert for nearly 3 1/2 years. She has had a rough time getting settled and change is in small increments sometimes taking 2 steps back, waiting and taking 3 steps forward. We have had ups and downs. My main theory with her is to watch and learn her soft spots and give her room to come toward me on her terms and to allow her to retreat. It's a delicate dance to know when to approach or to give her incentives to come closer. You will learn how to make John Wayne feel safe, it's very subjective and very unscientific. Thanks for joining us. This forum has been a lifeline to me for learning how to be the best care provider and friend for a wonderful little Timneh with big obstacles to overcome.

[katana600]

I was typing while Dave was posting. Breeder greys are totally out of the realm of my experience and he has much experience in that area. That's a possibility I hadn't even considered and I agree with Dave that if that's the case with John Wayne, it would take an entirely different approach.

[Pam Pam]

I love your bird's eye view shot! Great picture!

[Pam Pam]

Dave,

 

I'd like to reply but I'm soooo tired right now... Thank you for your information. I have a couple of busy days in front of me so I don't know exactly when but I'll try to explain some of my 'quotes'. Thank you for your time and your thoughts.

[Pam Pam]

Thank you Katana for your warm welcome! I hope I am able to fit in here. I'd love to be a part of a group of people who come together to share/to teach/to learn/to enjoy.

 

As I told Dave, I'm exhausted right now from a long day. I'll be back next week.

[Muse]

Jeff,

 

I feel like they are safe together. I feel like John Wayne was a pet once. He was definitely in someone's home as he makes phones ring, cats and kittens meow, talks too much in that man's voice. He makes too many sounds to have been a wild breeder and he's comfortable around dogs, kids, etc.

 

One woman who breeds them told me that the hand raised birds don't adapt well as breeders. That could be why John Wayne didn't work out for the breeding community? His reactions and the other things I've said make me think I'm right about him having once been tame. I've seen breeding CAGs straight from Africa and they are scared to death of people. He's definitely not a

wild/breeder bird.

 

If they start to show any kind of negative attitude toward one another, I'll immediately separate them and go get another cage. I promise.

 

Just because he got labeled 'a breeder' by the seller doesn't make him one. I think, with advice from people in this forum who know how to win a bird's trust, that John Wayne will once again become a pet. I hope so, anyway.

 

One thing I'd like to add is in reference to the advice you got from your "woman who breeds them" - that is a myth, just as much as the myths "birds won't concentrate on breeding if you have toys in their cage" and "hand-fed babies make the best pets." I happen to have three grand-birds that dispel all three of those myths to prove what I say is true.

 

Many breeders are, pardon the pun, parroting what they have heard from whoever they learned about breeding from. That makes these myths pervasive and very hard to dispel.

 

I will tell you this. My male Grey was a hand-fed baby bird and was just three years old when we lost him this past January. He'd already been through TWO cycles of getting hormonal by that time. Everything from getting extremely aggressive towards his most favorite person in the whole world - his daddy, to doing the Congo African Grey version of the humpty dance complete with the most pathetic begging sound I have ever heard in my life. His attentions were all for Megan, our girl. I think had she been old enough to return his interest, he'd have been "adapting" very well and at an extremely young age.

 

Our Green Cheeked Conures were both hand-fed, and they had a cage just full of toys. He even had a bromance going with our gay Sun Conure. But when spring came, he suddenly did a 180 and hooked up with the female he'd long spurned in favor of the Sun Conure's company. Of course, that led to mating, mating led to eggs, and I couldn't bear to destroy them knowing they were fertile. So we gave them a box and let nature take its course. He was VERY young, though she was almost two years old. Despite that fact, and despite them being "hand-fed" they had no problems figuring out what to put where to make the babies, how to incubate the eggs, and how to raise the chicks. We co-parented. I spent time with the babies every single day, but mom and dad raised them and they fledged naturally from the nest.

 

About wild-caught CAGs straight from Africa, Peck was never a breeder, but he was caught in the wild and brought to this country as a young bird. He acts VERY much like you describe John Wayne. Peck was purchased as a pet and kept by the same family but different members of the family over his 22 years. He's been with us since April 11th. He does many of the things you describe. He's so gentle when taking a treat. But other times he will strike the bars of the cage like he's trying to lash out at me. He pretty much stopped that for a while, but lately he has been doing it again. I think the fireworks over the holiday upset him because he's been far more aggressive since. Also, he always gets hatey when I put him back if he's not ready to go. If he is ready, he goes with no fuss.

 

I personally believe *any* animal can learn to trust with the right person and the right environment. It takes time, love and patience. Lots of patience.

 

I, too, would recommend at least getting a cage for him to stay in when you leave. They may be fine, but then again, he could get startled by a sound outside or a hawk flying past a window and you could come home to a badly injured or even killed bird. There are many things that can trigger aggression and birds can redirect the aggression to the nearest being if they can't get to what is causing it. You can put the cages side by side and they would still have the same long-distance relationship they are enjoying now.

 

Best of luck with your birds and keep up your good work with Mr. Wayne.

[Pam Pam]

[

QUOTE]But other times he will strike the bars of the cage like he's trying to lash out at me.

I didn't explain myself well. He doesn't strike out at me unless I've got my finger there trying to pet him or my arm asking him to step up. I generally can pet his beak through the bars, but if I persist he either moves over 1/2" to trick me (I think) into sticking my finger in far enough that he can bite me, or he strikes at my finger when it nears the bars to tell me to stop. He has never been aggressive to me or anyone unless provoked (for lack of a better word). Once I was able to scratch him (through the bars) on his neck and he turned his head away, tucked it, raised his feathers, and I knew he was loving it. That was exhilarating for me. I had caught him close enough to the bars to feel pretty safe extending my finger in far enough to do that scratching. The next time I attempted it, the following day, he was facing me and saw my finger coming towards him so he bit me. I'm still watching for another opportunity to scratch him again, but not while he's facing me!

 

He acts silly at times, snaking his neck and his eyes pinning when I'm petting Asia and I know in my heart he is longing for the same kind of attention. I want to give it to him.

 

My plea for help to this forum was what do I do next when he 1. takes treats gently, 2. gently mouths my hand before taking the treat 3. will strike first and then bite if my arm approaches closer than about 6 inches. Do I slowly move in an inch at a time or just go for it? Now isn't the time to go for it, I already know because I tried and he bit me. He didn't bite me hard enough to do real damage, but just broke the skin. My skin is thin and bleeds easily. But he wasn't trying to hurt me or he could have taken out a chunk. He was just 'defending' himself. I understood him and backed off. But I was asking everyone was: what to do to get there from here?

 

He doesn't retreat typically. He stays where he was just watches as I mess around with things in the cage, like when I had to stick half my body into the cage to screw in the Lixit bottle so they'd each have their own water bottles. I knew I had to do it and so I just went for it and he never flapped around or anything. Asia was trying to help, of course. I've changed out toys with no problem, either. He acts tame. But when I moved a perch to the door of the cage he panicked.

 

I know for a fact he was caught by the last two breeders with nets on long handles. They are related to each other and so I was able to talk to both of them. He didn't breed for the daughter so the mother tried him with her bird and he didn't breed with it. I explained all I wanted was for Asia's feathers to grow back and I didn't care if they ever bred.

 

I expected a wild bird, but in my opinion he isn't. You know, I'm here with him and I believe my opinion should be respected just as I respect other's. I got advice to separate them, but I trust him and her not to hurt one another. They've been together for over 3 months peacefully. Asia likes him, but she doesn't know how to approach him either.

 

I wanted to know the steps I should take in order to 'tame' him. I thought I should keep putting my wrist at the 6 inches distance for awhile, but when do I know to move it closer? When do I attempt touching him? I just don't know what order to do things in. I printed off the article written about body language so I could read it over and over and it is in the chair in front of the cage so I can double check as I watch him, but I'm still not certain what they are saying because Asia puffs up all over and I reach in for her in that state and she doesn't bite me, she rubs her head on my hand.

 

That's really what I was needing help with. Most of the conversation has centered on me having a pair of birds in the same cage. I expected Asia to be mean but she approached him gently. When she extended her beak he puffed up and she backed off. Because I am not good at reading body language, I don't know when to move my hand in closer for a step up. I don't know if I should just stay at this stage for awhile and try again? I do know someone has to make the first move. That's what I'd LOVE to hear about! I sincerely need help saving this guy from being solitary, because if I don't make the effort, that's all he will ever know is solitary confinement even if he is with another bird.

 

When I bought him, and I think I already explained this, I had resigned myself that Asia was wanting to do what nature was saying: breed. And after an extended family conference we all agreed we would do what was best for her, which we thought was place her in the breeder's care. Then Asia destroyed all her other feathers. The ambulance thing had been a month before. We were settled in at home and so that's when I felt convicted that she was longing for a mate. BUT with her lacking feathers anywhere, I knew no one would want her.

 

So, I got John Wayne to be her mate and since I don't want to have to hand feed again I would have then contact the woman I liked and hopefully she would want the pair. If they didn't pair up, my friend told me he felt her feathers would grow back with the addition of a new bird. And he was right, they are coming back in! At that time I would have sold each of them to breeders because AT THAT TIME I thought Asia was literally going to die if she didn't mate.

 

I, too, would recommend at least getting a cage for him to stay in when you leave. They may be fine, but then again, he could get startled by a sound outside or a hawk flying past a window and you could come home to a badly injured or even killed bird. There are many things that can trigger aggression and birds can redirect the aggression to the nearest being if they can't get to what is causing it.

 

I grew concerned when everyone was so worried over them being together. I made note of what they said but I chose to go with my gut feeling because I'm here in real life interacting with both of them and I think they like being together. I hadn't explained to the forum that I'm here 99% of the time. I wasn't being disrespectful to those who told me what they felt I should do, but it has taken me most of my life to learn to listen to my gut. So, I respectfully decline that advice but appreciate the heads up. As a compromise, to make everyone happy and guilt free, I will put one in another cage while I'm gone. I'll stick Asia in there since I can handle her.

 

I hope everyone feels relieved and we can start talking about the CAG and not the CAGE. LOL

 

I don't remember everyone's name yet and I'm afraid if I leave this box I'm writing in, in order to scroll up to find names to thank, that all this will be lost. But you know who you are and I do thank all of you for your advice. I'll be MORE diligent with them together and I'll separate them when gone. Gosh, I've talked too much again and time to go run a friend somewhere.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Pam Pam... Take a deep breath. Relax. I'm supporting you. I know everyone else was too. What do I know! I had three birds of different origin living in one cage, while they had three to choose from! They made their choices. Always follow your gut, but have a backup plan.

Now... lets get back to what do you want to know? We're listening! Nancy

[Pam Pam]

You gave me a lot to think about, Dave.

biting you when you're not looking.

He doesn't do that. I don't know where you came up with that, but I apologize if I said something the wrong way. Sorry.

 

Breeders talking which actually makes them pets at one time? --all greys ( breeders or pets if they have that ability or desire to talk using human words) will mimic hundreds of sounds that they hear enough. Why? They're the best mimics in the parrot kingdom. The mimicing means nothing.

 

When I was young, 25 years ago, I had 3 breeding pairs and I just bought males and females and threw them together in a cage. No one ever fought. I put a hand raised bird out there when she began showing signs that she wanted a mate. She remained tame (I know that is rare) and I know someone else personally who put a pet with another bird to breed and there was no problem with the birds fighting. In that case the tame bird was miserable with the wild one so the tame one got to go back inside the house and become a pet. I had 3 breeding pairs and over a 7 year period they didn't pick up words or talk. The only one who talked was the tame one, Precious. So, I don't believe personally that breeding birds set up in a private area, away from humans are going to talk. None of mine did. The imported ones were spooked by everything. It took them 5 years to bond.

 

One lady who lived 3 miles from me had 1/4 million dollars of exotic birds. They NEVER had a bird kill another bird because they kept the same species together and they were opposite sexes. I know all those things for a fact because I saw it with my own eyes and experienced it myself. I don't know how many dozens of CAGS she had, but it was a big business venture.

 

My mother got cancer and I had to move her in with me to take care of her. When she went in remission she went home to Oklahoma. I told her I'd come when she needed me. I had a clutch of 3 babies when I got the call to go. My best friend, also named Pam, took those babies and raised them for me for the last 3 months of my mother's life. I sold the babies, forced Pam to take half of the money. Because I was young and not as wise as I am now, I didn't know people would neglect a pet they paid a lot of money for. I just thought they were always good to their pets.

 

I also raised and sold puppies to supplement our income because I was a stay at home mom and we didn't have much. Now I volunteer from home to the animal rescue (I'm a director and I created the website and maintain it.) My views on breeding animals for profit has changed drastically. I don't want to but if Asia and JW have babies then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I don't know for sure, but I doubt they would breed in a house (no privacy) and in a cage half the size of a breeding cage.

 

My best friend Pam started an animal rescue and because of her influence, I stopped breeding things. I don't care if Asia ever breeds with him. I just want them happy. If they do start to show signs of wanting to breed, I'll decide what to do then. My son wants a baby, if we go that route. Right now I'm hoping Asia grows her feathers out and she and John Wayne have a great life together as friends.

 

I had one parakeet, Sweetie Bird, who was kept alone in a cage for half his life. One Christmas I felt sorry for him always being alone so I gave him a bride. He never mated with any of the hens I gave him. I didn't isolate the first hen and it died. I went to the pet store to get another and it died. Sweetie Bird got sick and I told my husband, "Sweetie Bird is going to die because he has what the hens had and they all died." My husband loved that little talking bird, we all did. He told me to take him to the vet. We paid $5 for that parakeet when he was a baby from a breeder. We spent almost a thousand dollars to keep him alive. He lived to be 13 years old. He never bred with the healthy hens I put with him. And he only bit me one time and I was messing with him trying to give him medicine. He was the sweetest bird we ever saw and even children could tell him, "Give me a kiss" and he'd walk over to where they were and kiss them on the lips. Only a nut would spend 1K for a $5 bird.

Gloves---using gloves only creates one step backward concerning accomplishments that are made.

You must have missed the part where I said I tried one time and knew when he freaked out now to do that again. I can pick Asia up with a glove on and she's okay. I don't know for a fact someone used a glove on him, but the people I knew back when I raised CAGS grabbed their legs in one hand and their head in the other. I knew a lot of breeders and of course I did things their way.

 

I really don't know why you tend to disagree with that person who said he was breeder when you decided to take him. A huge majority of the time it's people who are selling their birds and telling potential buyers that the birds they're sell were never breeders!!

 

Remember I was wanting a mate for Asia. I didn't care if they bred or not. I wasn't wanting another pet bird. I felt, before I read posts on this forum, that I had to give Asia up to the breeding community because she had 'come of age'. I know that sounds stupid, but it is what I've read in books and learned from breeders who mentored me. Now I don't want to find a new home for either of them. Now I intend to keep them. I hope they don't breed because I don't want to hand feed again nor do I want to have to go through the long process of finding the perfect home for my babies. I am very particular now and it would just be another thing on my plate.

 

You know this simply by his reactions or have other people actually sat you down and positively told you these were honest facts??

Both. I know for a fact he was caught in a net with a long handle (which looks like a big perch. The gloves brought such a strong reaction from him that I believe he was caught with gloves, too. He doesn't over react to my dog, grandkids, strangers, he puffs up to say 'leave me alone' but he doesn't move over or anything. I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box, but my gut tells me he was a pet. He uses a man's voice, rings the phone (land line), dings the microwave, just take my word for it and let's pretend I'm right, that he was a pet whose owner died and the kids came in, ran an add to sell him and somehow he ended up with breeders. The lady I bought him from knew my dilemma with Asia and she knew I wasn't looking for another pet. I was just looking for a bird friend for Asia to focus on so she'd leave her feathers alone. So far it's working.

 

What I didn't plan on was keeping them in the house. I intended to put them outside in a nice flight cage with a nest box and hope her feathers grew back. Then when she began breaking her pin feathers by losing her balance when she was outside the cage playing I had to change my plans. I couldn't put her outside with little supervision in a strange cage with a strange bird because if she fell, and I know she would have, she would have died.

 

The biggest thing I didn't plan on was keeping them! People in this forum have convinced me there is a better, smarter solution and so now I can keep Asia. I have to keep John Wayne, too, because I still believe a monogamous creature as intelligent as our CAGS are, deserve to have a companion (mate), even if it is in a separate cage. I personally am treating Asia as I would like to be treated if I was locked in a prison. I'd want someone in there with me rather than being alone.

 

I don't want to talk about this subject any more, please. I greatly appreciate your guidance and suggestions. I simply want to become friends with John Wayne now, which is another thing I wasn't expecting. I never thought I'd have a relationship with him. I was told he was not a pet and she thought he was a wild bird. I had two imports and so I know how they behave and he isn't like that at all.

 

I should have just asked for advice on taming him. But I was afraid everyone would ask a million questions so I decided just to tell the whole story and get it over with so we could get on to the trust building part. Hopefully I explained everything well enough this time.

 

I'm sorry I didn't tell that I raised CAGs 25 years ago. I really didn't feel it was anyone's business and I'm ashamed I did it so I didn't want to go there. I am telling you all now because I am not a novice who has only had one bird. I have a lifetime of experiences to draw on when I make a decision about what I want to do with my birds. I was feeling defensive because it seemed like every sentence I wrote was being picked apart and critiqued. I told y'all in the first post that I'm sensitive so I'm probably over reacting.

 

I'm taking what I believe is the right thing to do and going with it. I believe the breeding community have taught me things I will use but the people in this forum have the kind of attitude I like and I want to give it a shot in the off chance it works and I get to keep the birds I love as pets forever.

 

Goodnight. It is 3am and I've been writing for hours. This will be the last long post I write, I promise. Thanks for your time and warnings. I am going to put Asia in a cage when I have to go someplace. I seldom go anywhere, but I'm compromising and doing that. Thanks again.

[Inara]

Hi Pam, and welcome. What an informative post, and it is apparent that you've been around the block a few times, and like many people who have experience with these wonderful creatures in the distant past, you have grown along with the times as research and vet science has helped us all improve our understanding of what best suits our companions.

 

Much like our Greys, while a varied lot, we all have a lot in common, the primary thing being our love for our companions. You will find differences in opinions from time to time, and some more direct/blunt posts but no one bites . You will find a wealth of information in the various threads, and I would suggest that you read through the Training threads, as there are many people who have asked the same questions on trust building with rehomed birds, etc.

 

You will feel right at home here in no time. You and your birds have definitely landed in the right place.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Inara

[Pam Pam]

Thank you! I won't rattle and ramble on for hours anymore. Today I am just going to say thank you to Talon, Timbermom, Sterling, Kins, Muse, Katana, Fussers, Dave, Inara, Jeff, and Greywing. I hope I didn't forget anyone. Everything you told me is important to me. I've used a lot of your ideas already. I've put the perch on the door and let it swing out. I'm putting Asia in a separate age when I'm gone. I've learned how to find my posts! Hey, I'm learning!

 

I'm appreciative of your time and your opinions. Thank you for respecting that I am a little different and walk to the tune of my own drummer, but I always do my best to do what I think is the right thing. I listen to my own heart, mind, and draw from past and present experiences. Thank you for accepting me! I'll be quiet for awhile and do what I was advised to do: READ. So, remember me and after I've read for awhile, and there's A LOT here, then maybe I won't be asking the same things over and over and over that others have asked.

 

Everyone have a beautiful day! This is the day the Lord made. Rejoice and be glad in it!

 

Respectfully, Pam

[Acappella]

Ok, so here are some concrete things to try with JW. First, use his natural instincts to accomplish your purposes. Eg. He's a flock animal so he naturally wants to be 'with'. Let him see you be affectionate with Asia, giving scritches, having her on you etc... Ask her if she wants scritches, give her some scritches, then approach JW and ask if he wants some scritches. Any negative body language, just say Ok, and go back to Asia. One day he may get brave enough to say ok. When JW seems fearfull, don't approach him head on, but instead look at him side on, even try half closing your eyes. This makes you look less like a predator and therefore less threatening. Try just sitting beside his cage close to where he sits with the bars between you. Gradually move the chair closer. Again, first sign of fear, back off a tad. When he feels like his subtle signals are being seen and respected he'll be less inclined to escalate to bites. That's just some of the things I did when Dorian first came home. Hope this helps.

[Pam Pam]

Acapella,

 

I love those suggestions! I am so glad you suggested the side approach. That's a horse training tip, too, and I don't know why I didn't think of it. (Slap myself on forehead). I haven't been doing that and I'll immediately start. Another tip I picked up from reading Jeff's mail to someone else was this: give treats when bird is relaxed. I was treating while he was puffed up and all that does is reward him for puffing up and acting bad. I should have known I was not using my head on that thing, either. I need to start remembering how we handled horses and go back to square one. Thank you so much!