Pam Pam

en I am able, I WANT to READ. There are several books in here to read and learn from. It is just sooo big and there are so many people, it can seem overwhelming! If I could get the search engine to work for me, it does occasionally, then maybe I could filter through a lot of the casual chatter, like what I'm writing now! I'm sure the administrators are kept super busy. THANKS ADMINISTRATORS FOR ALL YOU DO! You guys are the unsung heroes of this site!

Awwwh, thanks! Everyone here seems very sweet and eager to help. Thank you for your comment. Pam

Well, Dave, between my 3 rescued dogs, (I train service dogs for disabled people), being a director at Noah's Ark Bayou Animal Sanctuary where I also am web administrator, do some computer tech work when needed, try to attend all the church services I can attend, have 7 local grand children I'd love to spend more time with, a full time husband who likes me to go everywhere he goes, run a household, have 3 dogs, two CAGS, and a huge yard with 25 flower beds I just started pruning back.. My house needs a good spring cleaning and that's only part of the agenda. I cook, clean, work in the yard, and the rest of my time is for my large family. I'd love to talk more about everyone's birds, but I am not familiar with your site. So, when God decides to slow me down some, and I find myself with extra time on my hands, then I'll be sure to do just that! In the meantime, I give what I can (I hope someone learned something from the updates) and keep on keeping on the best way I know how. Pam Pam

Thank you so much for moving this! I'll look in training, if this forum allows me to 'have the privilege."

I'm getting mixed signals as to if I'm signed in or not. I've attempted 3 times to thank you, Inara. Your words were eloquently spoken and humbly received. Pam

I'll try now to find Miss Gilbert's story. Thanks.

I appreciate your comment. Thanks.

Do you think an administrator could/would move this to the correct place? I'm not familiar with what goes where yet. Thank you for your interest.

Hi, Everyone! I've been gone for a couple of months, but wanted to give you an update on 'John Wayne'. I came to this forum trying to get help on how to get John Wayne to 'step up' without eating me alive. I had just purchased him and been told by the breeder who sold him to me, "He is wild. He's NOT a pet. He's only a breeder." But when I saw him, I KNEW he wasn't wild, because I had owned wild CAG's many years ago when I was a young woman. I looked into his eyes and felt he was instead a pet who had been disposed of, probaby when his owner sadly passed away and the adult children didn't want him. A few weeks after his arrival, I put him in the same cage as my Asia. I was able to put my arm inside the cage to install a precautionary second water bottle, just on the off chance that JW wouldn't let Asia go to 'his' side of the cage and drink. JW watched with interest as I held the nut with pliers inside their cage. I had my entire arm up to my shoulder in the doorway of the cage. He could have attacked, but he didn't. He just watched. Asia squeezed past, up and over my body as she climbed to the outside in a fun game to take away the screw driver in my other hand. My detailed description of putting the two birds together in one cage brought a lot of concern from this forum. I respectfully ask for us NOT to go back there. I'm not wanting to rehash, I'm only wanting to explain for those who didn't read my previous posts and mainly I wanted to share in an update those of you who were interested in our story. The birds are still together, getting along very well. I am home a lot (retired) so I'm able to observe. There's never been a fuss between them. They have actually ended their 'you and I can switch sides, just keep the same space between us' dance that went on the first few months. Now they get on the same side of the cage at the same time, you might even say close, but not 'that close'. LOL I believed back when I first got him that JW was once a beloved pet. JW has gradually shared more and more of his 'vocabulary' with me, from the deep male voice--not my husband's, to meowing, phones ringing (not ours) and other sounds he wouldn't have known if he had always been outside in a cage. He wasn't 'just a breeder'. At first I didn't like the deep unfamiliar voice inside my home. It was an unnerving feeling, as if being 'invaded' in my most private sanctuary. I had worried about the bird cursing, as my Asia doesn't curse, but I had NOT thought about hearing a strange MALE voice in my home when I believed I was alone! At first treats were taken and flung to the floor of the cage as if to say with arrogant pride, "I don't need you and if you are trying to bribe me, I am above bribing!" We got past the awkward introduction, including a half a dozen bites as I persisted in offering an arm too soon to an untrusting bird who had been harshly treated by humans for years. But I think you would all have been proud of me--I didn't flinch. I didn't yell. I just held my arm there and always after he'd bite once as a warning, John Wayne would retreat. I recognized I was pressuring him to do too much, too soon. So, I backed off and began to just play with Asia. He watched for weeks. I began to give the dog and Asia treats but when he ignored me (his second strategy). More weeks passed. I would tell him, "Okay. If you don't want this, I'll eat it." And I'd eat it in front of him. One day, rather than grabbing then tossing or dropping the treat, he gently 'felt' of my finger with his beak then accepted the treat. I felt he was trying to decide if I was friend or foe. He still does that gentle beak thing sometimes before taking a treat, and I'm always delighted. I'm thrilled he is even entertaining the thought that I might be worthy to be his friend. Because you see, if he was once someone's 'baby', John Wayne has remained true to his first love. Now, rather than feel frightened by Mr. ?'s voice, I have become 'friends' with him. I regard him as a good and kind man; someone who spent a lot of time whistling tunes to John Wayne. Mr. ?'s voice is no longer invasive but welcome as an old friend who dropped in for awhile. I look forward to hearing the pleasant and familiar, "How 'ya doin?" An hour ago I held a small bowl in my left hand and dipped a finger from my right hand into the bowl. I held my finger in front of JW's face, like I had Asia's many times in the past months as he watched. John Wayne leaned in for what I thought would be a bite. I just wasn't sure if it would be hard enough to bring blood or just a swift warning. The first contact with his beak was quick and unsure, then as swiftly as he'd lashed out at me, he leaned in a second time. I braced for a bite. But instead I was rewarded with an exquisitely gentle tongue that enjoyed feeling of my finger as he licked the drop of water off the tip! Yea!!!!!! I was exhilarated! I slowly repeated this with him half a dozen times before he simply stepped away. This amazing, intelligent bird really is like the STAR John Wayne. He's dignified, at first aloof, but fiercely loyal, and not easily fooled. True to form, he has a tender side. John Wayne's eyes have always denied what the woman who sold him said, "He's wild. He's only a breeder, not a pet!" This beautiful creature's eyes held a haunting message for anyone willing to take the time to decipher. The eyes were not fearful but evaluating; not threatening but curious; not standoffish but wise. His message spoke to my heart, "I was once very precious. I was faithful to Mr. ?, waiting for him to return. For years I have searched for human kindness, and found none. I'm not sure about you, and because I was so precious to Mr. ?, you are going to have to prove you are a worthy soul. I will watch you a long, long time. And if you continue to be kind to me, one day I might reward you with the love I have been faithful to keep." I'm not sure if I will ever be able to handle John Wayne like Mr. ? handled him. I have observed JW pretending he is being petted. In this daydream he performs, he snakes his head and his eyes become a relaxed slit. He fluffs his neck feathers and then he bows his head, as if a flash back to the days he was being scratched. But he won't let me freely scratch, not yet. Maybe one day he'll let me. When or if he allows me, until then I will be the one watching. This is my message to you: John Wayne has amazed me, wowed me, and won me over. I will PATIENTLY persist to patiently persist. And if he rewards me every once in awhile like he did tonight, then it will be enough for me. Thanks for reading. Pam

Kins, I keep clicking your 'thanks' tab but the tab keeps returning like I never clicked it the next time I read your post? I think I have enough information to go on for awhile. I was just 'stuck' at a point of not knowing what to do. My memory has been jogged by those reminding me birds are prey and flock animals. Now I have a plan and using it plus my own methods I think I'm good for awhile. I'll be back when I get stuck again. I'm so excited to get to start again doing things with new direction. I've been facing him straight on (wrong), giving him treats no matter what body language he was using (wrong)>he would take them, but it just dawned on me I am rewarding him for showing aggression if I give him a treat while he's being hateful! Jeff jogged that in my head. I knew that from dog training although I KNOW I can't use dog training methods on a prey animal!!! I need NO advice on the differences between dogs and birds, thanks! ha/ha I just haven't messed with a 'new' prey animal in a long time and my brain isn't as quick to put 2 and 2 together anymore. The 'take a deep breath' advice was so appropriate for me. The doctor said stress can cause the mental disconnects (memory loss, confusion, losing things, etc.). Lord knows we have had stress these past 3 years! Death of my father, inability to financially maintain our home/land of 25 years due to losing our business when the recession started, the inevitable bankruptcy that follows losing a big business whose receivables didn't come in so they couldn't go out to our debtors, and then my husband having 4 heart surgeries plus severe diabetes. Yep, I've got a plateful of stress. Don't tell me my birds can pick up on it! I know they can and have. That's what started Asia's feather chewing. The one place I am at peace is with them. That's what I meant when I said I'm sensitive. I've been beaten to the brink of insanity and I didn't want to come on here and have people attacking me (no one has) or pressuring me (well...got some of that at first but we are over that hump, whew) on anything. Just please be easy with me as I don't ever want to withdraw and become a voyer>just reading and never interacting. That's what John Wayne is doing now and I have such compassion for him. I'll NOT leave him in that horrible place. I've been there/am there at times even now, and it is sooo sad and lonely a place to be. But because I know God has a plan for me, that He won't forsake me, I have held firm to that faith and God is always faithful to provide a peace even through all these horrible things. I am walking toward Him and not giving up or giving in. That is my only goal in life: to walk the narrow path. It keeps me hopeful, joyful, expectant, and humble. All good things come from God. So, I search for the good and keep my eyes upon that horizon. Thank you all for your time and good intentions. I've learned a lot and will keep reading. The John Wayne in me and the feathered one, too, are going to make it!

Acapella, I love those suggestions! I am so glad you suggested the side approach. That's a horse training tip, too, and I don't know why I didn't think of it. (Slap myself on forehead). I haven't been doing that and I'll immediately start. Another tip I picked up from reading Jeff's mail to someone else was this: give treats when bird is relaxed. I was treating while he was puffed up and all that does is reward him for puffing up and acting bad. I should have known I was not using my head on that thing, either. I need to start remembering how we handled horses and go back to square one. Thank you so much!

Thank you! I won't rattle and ramble on for hours anymore. Today I am just going to say thank you to Talon, Timbermom, Sterling, Kins, Muse, Katana, Fussers, Dave, Inara, Jeff, and Greywing. I hope I didn't forget anyone. Everything you told me is important to me. I've used a lot of your ideas already. I've put the perch on the door and let it swing out. I'm putting Asia in a separate age when I'm gone. I've learned how to find my posts! Hey, I'm learning! I'm appreciative of your time and your opinions. Thank you for respecting that I am a little different and walk to the tune of my own drummer, but I always do my best to do what I think is the right thing. I listen to my own heart, mind, and draw from past and present experiences. Thank you for accepting me! I'll be quiet for awhile and do what I was advised to do: READ. So, remember me and after I've read for awhile, and there's A LOT here, then maybe I won't be asking the same things over and over and over that others have asked. Everyone have a beautiful day! This is the day the Lord made. Rejoice and be glad in it! Respectfully, Pam

You gave me a lot to think about, Dave. He doesn't do that. I don't know where you came up with that, but I apologize if I said something the wrong way. Sorry. When I was young, 25 years ago, I had 3 breeding pairs and I just bought males and females and threw them together in a cage. No one ever fought. I put a hand raised bird out there when she began showing signs that she wanted a mate. She remained tame (I know that is rare) and I know someone else personally who put a pet with another bird to breed and there was no problem with the birds fighting. In that case the tame bird was miserable with the wild one so the tame one got to go back inside the house and become a pet. I had 3 breeding pairs and over a 7 year period they didn't pick up words or talk. The only one who talked was the tame one, Precious. So, I don't believe personally that breeding birds set up in a private area, away from humans are going to talk. None of mine did. The imported ones were spooked by everything. It took them 5 years to bond. One lady who lived 3 miles from me had 1/4 million dollars of exotic birds. They NEVER had a bird kill another bird because they kept the same species together and they were opposite sexes. I know all those things for a fact because I saw it with my own eyes and experienced it myself. I don't know how many dozens of CAGS she had, but it was a big business venture. My mother got cancer and I had to move her in with me to take care of her. When she went in remission she went home to Oklahoma. I told her I'd come when she needed me. I had a clutch of 3 babies when I got the call to go. My best friend, also named Pam, took those babies and raised them for me for the last 3 months of my mother's life. I sold the babies, forced Pam to take half of the money. Because I was young and not as wise as I am now, I didn't know people would neglect a pet they paid a lot of money for. I just thought they were always good to their pets. I also raised and sold puppies to supplement our income because I was a stay at home mom and we didn't have much. Now I volunteer from home to the animal rescue (I'm a director and I created the website and maintain it.) My views on breeding animals for profit has changed drastically. I don't want to but if Asia and JW have babies then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I don't know for sure, but I doubt they would breed in a house (no privacy) and in a cage half the size of a breeding cage. My best friend Pam started an animal rescue and because of her influence, I stopped breeding things. I don't care if Asia ever breeds with him. I just want them happy. If they do start to show signs of wanting to breed, I'll decide what to do then. My son wants a baby, if we go that route. Right now I'm hoping Asia grows her feathers out and she and John Wayne have a great life together as friends. I had one parakeet, Sweetie Bird, who was kept alone in a cage for half his life. One Christmas I felt sorry for him always being alone so I gave him a bride. He never mated with any of the hens I gave him. I didn't isolate the first hen and it died. I went to the pet store to get another and it died. Sweetie Bird got sick and I told my husband, "Sweetie Bird is going to die because he has what the hens had and they all died." My husband loved that little talking bird, we all did. He told me to take him to the vet. We paid $5 for that parakeet when he was a baby from a breeder. We spent almost a thousand dollars to keep him alive. He lived to be 13 years old. He never bred with the healthy hens I put with him. And he only bit me one time and I was messing with him trying to give him medicine. He was the sweetest bird we ever saw and even children could tell him, "Give me a kiss" and he'd walk over to where they were and kiss them on the lips. Only a nut would spend 1K for a $5 bird. You must have missed the part where I said I tried one time and knew when he freaked out now to do that again. I can pick Asia up with a glove on and she's okay. I don't know for a fact someone used a glove on him, but the people I knew back when I raised CAGS grabbed their legs in one hand and their head in the other. I knew a lot of breeders and of course I did things their way. Remember I was wanting a mate for Asia. I didn't care if they bred or not. I wasn't wanting another pet bird. I felt, before I read posts on this forum, that I had to give Asia up to the breeding community because she had 'come of age'. I know that sounds stupid, but it is what I've read in books and learned from breeders who mentored me. Now I don't want to find a new home for either of them. Now I intend to keep them. I hope they don't breed because I don't want to hand feed again nor do I want to have to go through the long process of finding the perfect home for my babies. I am very particular now and it would just be another thing on my plate. Both. I know for a fact he was caught in a net with a long handle (which looks like a big perch. The gloves brought such a strong reaction from him that I believe he was caught with gloves, too. He doesn't over react to my dog, grandkids, strangers, he puffs up to say 'leave me alone' but he doesn't move over or anything. I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box, but my gut tells me he was a pet. He uses a man's voice, rings the phone (land line), dings the microwave, just take my word for it and let's pretend I'm right, that he was a pet whose owner died and the kids came in, ran an add to sell him and somehow he ended up with breeders. The lady I bought him from knew my dilemma with Asia and she knew I wasn't looking for another pet. I was just looking for a bird friend for Asia to focus on so she'd leave her feathers alone. So far it's working. What I didn't plan on was keeping them in the house. I intended to put them outside in a nice flight cage with a nest box and hope her feathers grew back. Then when she began breaking her pin feathers by losing her balance when she was outside the cage playing I had to change my plans. I couldn't put her outside with little supervision in a strange cage with a strange bird because if she fell, and I know she would have, she would have died. The biggest thing I didn't plan on was keeping them! People in this forum have convinced me there is a better, smarter solution and so now I can keep Asia. I have to keep John Wayne, too, because I still believe a monogamous creature as intelligent as our CAGS are, deserve to have a companion (mate), even if it is in a separate cage. I personally am treating Asia as I would like to be treated if I was locked in a prison. I'd want someone in there with me rather than being alone. I don't want to talk about this subject any more, please. I greatly appreciate your guidance and suggestions. I simply want to become friends with John Wayne now, which is another thing I wasn't expecting. I never thought I'd have a relationship with him. I was told he was not a pet and she thought he was a wild bird. I had two imports and so I know how they behave and he isn't like that at all. I should have just asked for advice on taming him. But I was afraid everyone would ask a million questions so I decided just to tell the whole story and get it over with so we could get on to the trust building part. Hopefully I explained everything well enough this time. I'm sorry I didn't tell that I raised CAGs 25 years ago. I really didn't feel it was anyone's business and I'm ashamed I did it so I didn't want to go there. I am telling you all now because I am not a novice who has only had one bird. I have a lifetime of experiences to draw on when I make a decision about what I want to do with my birds. I was feeling defensive because it seemed like every sentence I wrote was being picked apart and critiqued. I told y'all in the first post that I'm sensitive so I'm probably over reacting. I'm taking what I believe is the right thing to do and going with it. I believe the breeding community have taught me things I will use but the people in this forum have the kind of attitude I like and I want to give it a shot in the off chance it works and I get to keep the birds I love as pets forever. Goodnight. It is 3am and I've been writing for hours. This will be the last long post I write, I promise. Thanks for your time and warnings. I am going to put Asia in a cage when I have to go someplace. I seldom go anywhere, but I'm compromising and doing that. Thanks again.

[ I didn't explain myself well. He doesn't strike out at me unless I've got my finger there trying to pet him or my arm asking him to step up. I generally can pet his beak through the bars, but if I persist he either moves over 1/2" to trick me (I think) into sticking my finger in far enough that he can bite me, or he strikes at my finger when it nears the bars to tell me to stop. He has never been aggressive to me or anyone unless provoked (for lack of a better word). Once I was able to scratch him (through the bars) on his neck and he turned his head away, tucked it, raised his feathers, and I knew he was loving it. That was exhilarating for me. I had caught him close enough to the bars to feel pretty safe extending my finger in far enough to do that scratching. The next time I attempted it, the following day, he was facing me and saw my finger coming towards him so he bit me. I'm still watching for another opportunity to scratch him again, but not while he's facing me! He acts silly at times, snaking his neck and his eyes pinning when I'm petting Asia and I know in my heart he is longing for the same kind of attention. I want to give it to him. My plea for help to this forum was what do I do next when he 1. takes treats gently, 2. gently mouths my hand before taking the treat 3. will strike first and then bite if my arm approaches closer than about 6 inches. Do I slowly move in an inch at a time or just go for it? Now isn't the time to go for it, I already know because I tried and he bit me. He didn't bite me hard enough to do real damage, but just broke the skin. My skin is thin and bleeds easily. But he wasn't trying to hurt me or he could have taken out a chunk. He was just 'defending' himself. I understood him and backed off. But I was asking everyone was: what to do to get there from here? He doesn't retreat typically. He stays where he was just watches as I mess around with things in the cage, like when I had to stick half my body into the cage to screw in the Lixit bottle so they'd each have their own water bottles. I knew I had to do it and so I just went for it and he never flapped around or anything. Asia was trying to help, of course. I've changed out toys with no problem, either. He acts tame. But when I moved a perch to the door of the cage he panicked. I know for a fact he was caught by the last two breeders with nets on long handles. They are related to each other and so I was able to talk to both of them. He didn't breed for the daughter so the mother tried him with her bird and he didn't breed with it. I explained all I wanted was for Asia's feathers to grow back and I didn't care if they ever bred. I expected a wild bird, but in my opinion he isn't. You know, I'm here with him and I believe my opinion should be respected just as I respect other's. I got advice to separate them, but I trust him and her not to hurt one another. They've been together for over 3 months peacefully. Asia likes him, but she doesn't know how to approach him either. I wanted to know the steps I should take in order to 'tame' him. I thought I should keep putting my wrist at the 6 inches distance for awhile, but when do I know to move it closer? When do I attempt touching him? I just don't know what order to do things in. I printed off the article written about body language so I could read it over and over and it is in the chair in front of the cage so I can double check as I watch him, but I'm still not certain what they are saying because Asia puffs up all over and I reach in for her in that state and she doesn't bite me, she rubs her head on my hand. That's really what I was needing help with. Most of the conversation has centered on me having a pair of birds in the same cage. I expected Asia to be mean but she approached him gently. When she extended her beak he puffed up and she backed off. Because I am not good at reading body language, I don't know when to move my hand in closer for a step up. I don't know if I should just stay at this stage for awhile and try again? I do know someone has to make the first move. That's what I'd LOVE to hear about! I sincerely need help saving this guy from being solitary, because if I don't make the effort, that's all he will ever know is solitary confinement even if he is with another bird. When I bought him, and I think I already explained this, I had resigned myself that Asia was wanting to do what nature was saying: breed. And after an extended family conference we all agreed we would do what was best for her, which we thought was place her in the breeder's care. Then Asia destroyed all her other feathers. The ambulance thing had been a month before. We were settled in at home and so that's when I felt convicted that she was longing for a mate. BUT with her lacking feathers anywhere, I knew no one would want her. So, I got John Wayne to be her mate and since I don't want to have to hand feed again I would have then contact the woman I liked and hopefully she would want the pair. If they didn't pair up, my friend told me he felt her feathers would grow back with the addition of a new bird. And he was right, they are coming back in! At that time I would have sold each of them to breeders because AT THAT TIME I thought Asia was literally going to die if she didn't mate. I grew concerned when everyone was so worried over them being together. I made note of what they said but I chose to go with my gut feeling because I'm here in real life interacting with both of them and I think they like being together. I hadn't explained to the forum that I'm here 99% of the time. I wasn't being disrespectful to those who told me what they felt I should do, but it has taken me most of my life to learn to listen to my gut. So, I respectfully decline that advice but appreciate the heads up. As a compromise, to make everyone happy and guilt free, I will put one in another cage while I'm gone. I'll stick Asia in there since I can handle her. I hope everyone feels relieved and we can start talking about the CAG and not the CAGE. LOL I don't remember everyone's name yet and I'm afraid if I leave this box I'm writing in, in order to scroll up to find names to thank, that all this will be lost. But you know who you are and I do thank all of you for your advice. I'll be MORE diligent with them together and I'll separate them when gone. Gosh, I've talked too much again and time to go run a friend somewhere.

Thank you Katana for your warm welcome! I hope I am able to fit in here. I'd love to be a part of a group of people who come together to share/to teach/to learn/to enjoy. As I told Dave, I'm exhausted right now from a long day. I'll be back next week.