handfeeding advice & poopologist needed

[aunali9]

Hi guys, I'm still new to the whole bird rearing process and haven't smelled too many bird craps yet. Yet I know bird poop should not stink and have read how the shape should be etc.

 

Due to reasons pertaining to lax animal sales and breeding/smuggling laws where I live, the only way to buy a parrot is during its hand feeding years.

 

My African grey baby is almost 7 weeks old. Dave helped me a little earlier and I hope to hear from him again.

 

Dave mentioned that I should feed him till he refuses to eat formula further but the problem is he doesn't refuse! He went from refusing 20ml of formula to eating more than 40 in 2 weeks! And I read a post in the nursery section about feeding volumes based on age and it said 30-45 but by this rate he'll be asking for 60ml a good 2 weeks before the guide. Should I only feed him till his crop feels full? Currently I'm stopping a safe amount before it hangs down on his chest. I feel like he will eat till he bursts. I will add that I'm using a syringe with a tube tightly secured (I try to tug it off myself before every feed first before feeding) but I'm only using it to drop the formula on his tongue very slowly rather than stick it down his throat.

 

Also I figure his poop looks normal. There is the small amount of urates, a well formed brown poop, and fluid. But some times there is only fluid. Is that normal? 15 minutes after that he takes a regular crap. But scares the shit out of me when there is no poop in it. Also is it supposed to be completely scentless? Like 100%? Because my birds poop doesn't have an offensive odor or one so strong it invades the room, but if I clean it with a tissue off the floor when he's out, it does have a slight smell. I can smell it if its 6 inches from my nose.

 

Lastly, he seems to recognize me as the person who feeds him, but that's all he seems to associate me with. No cuddling no affection. If I try to scratch his head he starts to eat my finger making his rhythmic head bobbing movements. Its like the sight of my hands means food.

[Dave007]

Hi guys, I'm still new to the whole bird rearing process and haven't smelled too many bird craps yet. Yet I know bird poop should not stink and have read how the shape should be etc.

 

Due to reasons pertaining to lax animal sales and breeding/smuggling laws where I live, the only way to buy a parrot is during its hand feeding years.

 

My African grey baby is almost 7 weeks old. Dave helped me a little earlier and I hope to hear from him again.

 

Dave mentioned that I should feed him till he refuses to eat formula further but the problem is he doesn't refuse! He went from refusing 20ml of formula to eating more than 40 in 2 weeks! And I read a post in the nursery section about feeding volumes based on age and it said 30-45 but by this rate he'll be asking for 60ml a good 2 weeks before the guide. Should I only feed him till his crop feels full? Currently I'm stopping a safe amount before it hangs down on his chest. I feel like he will eat till he bursts. I will add that I'm using a syringe with a tube tightly secured (I try to tug it off myself before every feed first before feeding) but I'm only using it to drop the formula on his tongue very slowly rather than stick it down his throat.

 

Also I figure his poop looks normal. There is the small amount of urates, a well formed brown poop, and fluid. But some times there is only fluid. Is that normal? 15 minutes after that he takes a regular crap. But scares the shit out of me when there is no poop in it. Also is it supposed to be completely scentless? Like 100%? Because my birds poop doesn't have an offensive odor or one so strong it invades the room, but if I clean it with a tissue off the floor when he's out, it does have a slight smell. I can smell it if its 6 inches from my nose.

 

Lastly, he seems to recognize me as the person who feeds him, but that's all he seems to associate me with. No cuddling no affection. If I try to scratch his head he starts to eat my finger making his rhythmic head bobbing movements. Its like the sight of my hands means food.

 

 

I think you may have misunderstand what I said but I'll try to be clearer.

First off, amount of food-----I don't remember you saying anything about the actual amount you use but I can tell you that the amount per feeding is way too small. Feedings should start out with about 45 to 55 cc per feeding but if your bird won't eat that much and refuses the whole amount, then don't try to give him the whole feeding, just what he'll accept. Making extra formula is no big deal. Try doing this 3 or 4 times a day with the same amount and you can eventually know how much he'll accept. Basically, the bird is telling you when to ease up on each amount. It's called abundance feeding. The next step concerning abundance feeding has to do with the actual amount of feedings a bird will take in one day. A bird will refuse one feeding because the bird's desire to eat more solid material. It's not the bird's choice. It's nature's choice. Some birds will get to that point sooner or later but the important thing to remember that you have to let the bird tell you. Pulling away or spitting up a feeding says it all. That means one less formula feeding a day and an increase in more solid food. Slowly, a bird will refuse all formula feedings. But you can't decide when this is gonna happen. Wild different greys, the time may a longer or shorter amount of time. The bird will you when that happens.

 

The crop==crops don't burst. Any full crop will hang to the ground and be bigger than a golf ball.

 

*******There is the small amount of urates, a well formed brown poop, and fluid. But some times there is only fluid. Is that normal? 15 minutes after that he takes a regular crap******

 

Just like a person, a bird sometimes won't piss and shit at the exact same time, When you only see fluid, that means the bird is urinating. Birds urinate 5 x more than they defecate on any particular day. Their big dump usually happens in the morning.

 

As far as odor, bird's feces does smell a little--sometimes but not all of the time. Of course I don't smell the feces from 6 in. That's a bit extreme. Another thing abount smell. Some people don't smell it. Some people smell it a little. Some smell it more strongly.

It's all in the nose of the sniffer/snorter.

er. If I try to scratch his head he starts to eat my finger making his rhythmic head bobbing movements. Its like the sight of my hands means food.

 

Exactly!

[aunali9]

Haha alright. I don't make a habit of sniffing it from 6 inches but I figured I should have some means of quantifying the strength of an odor. Didn't see a better way to explain. The rest is self explanatory. And yes you are right I hadn't mentioned an amount before. But as you put it, the amount shouldn't be a consideration. I should just make extra per feeding and keep feeding him till he pulls away or no longer wants more. It should be the birds choice completely. Got that. I generally wait an hour after his crop is completely empty for the next feed and just play around with him during that time so he doesn't pressure his crop and puke or something. Thanks again for the help and advice!

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Thanks Dave! Maybe some others here have knowledge... but I think of just you to be able to help this owner and baby! I am so proud that you are a member here. Nancy

[aunali9]

Dave I hope I'm not bothering you too much about this. Yesterday I let him feed till he refused and he ended up finishing 60ml at which point I stopped because he could hardly stand for how full his crop was. He always made high pitched sqwaking noises when I normally fed him but at 60ml his voice changed and he sounded hoarse. Before the voice change he was bobbing his head a whole lot but if I brought the syringe near his head without even touching it he still wanted more. I freaked thinking he probably vomited but couldn't get it out and aspirated it. After that he was making the hoarse sounds for a while. He also looked very drowsy and less active for a long time after wards. When his crop started to empty again he became active once more. But looking up any respiratory issues he might have developed I read about tail bobbing. As such he hardly has any tail feathers. His tail makes an upwards and outwards movement when he vocalises but not when he is silent or sleeping/resting. Very rarely after maybe 15 normal breaths he makes a slight whistle even in his sleep. I've got an appointment with a vet about 12 hours from now just in case but I can not help but worry. He might have been doing these things even normally before the feeding incident and it might just be a manifestation of my paranoia. Any thoughts?

 

PS I swear I'm going to write an article for the local news paper highlighting how frightening it can be to adopt an unweaned baby bird. Or any animal for that matter.

[Dave007]

Dave I hope I'm not bothering you too much about this. Yesterday I let him feed till he refused and he ended up finishing 60ml at which point I stopped because he could hardly stand for how full his crop was. He always made high pitched sqwaking noises when I normally fed him but at 60ml his voice changed and he sounded hoarse. Before the voice change he was bobbing his head a whole lot but if I brought the syringe near his head without even touching it he still wanted more. I freaked thinking he probably vomited but couldn't get it out and aspirated it. After that he was making the hoarse sounds for a while. He also looked very drowsy and less active for a long time after wards. When his crop started to empty again he became active once more. But looking up any respiratory issues he might have developed I read about tail bobbing. As such he hardly has any tail feathers. His tail makes an upwards and outwards movement when he vocalises but not when he is silent or sleeping/resting. Very rarely after maybe 15 normal breaths he makes a slight whistle even in his sleep. I've got an appointment with a vet about 12 hours from now just in case but I can not help but worry. He might have been doing these things even normally before the feeding incident and it might just be a manifestation of my paranoia. Any thoughts?

 

PS I swear I'm going to write an article for the local news paper highlighting how frightening it can be to adopt an unweaned baby bird. Or any animal for that matter.

 

You're not bothering me. The typical reaction after been fed a good amount of food with the crop fully extended is for a chick to fall forward onto his crop. That may have scared you. They stay that way for a while. They also go to sleep pretty quickly after they eat.

But looking up any respiratory issues he might have developed I read about tail bobbing

I don't know what you read but tail bobbing and respitory problems have nothing to do with each other.

I freaked thinking he probably vomited but couldn't get it out and aspirated it

Now you're starting to worry me and freak me out. No one told you to do this and you were told that the crop would be as big as a golf ball or even larger after feeding.

 

I brought the syringe near his head without even touching it he still wanted more

You were already told that that would happen.

 

His tail makes an upwards and outwards movement when he vocalises but not when he is silent or sleeping/resting. Very rarely after maybe 15 normal breaths he makes a slight whistle even in his sleep

I'll be blunt here. Every little thing that your bird is doing which is natural for a parrot to do is being scrutinized by you and you seem to be coming up with negative thoughts.

To the point here----this is why we on this board will always gived a thumbs down when it comes to getting unweaned chicks.

Honestly, I do think you're paranoid and more importantly, your bird is gonna pay the price.\

[aunali9]

Well. I'm paranoid because I hope my bird doesn't pay any price. The vet told me more or less the same thing you just did. But yeah I'll try feeding him till he stops by himself again. I can't agree more with the board regarding unweaned chicks. I wish the exposure to animal care was greater in this country. But at the moment there isn't a lot I can do about it but do my best to care for my parrot. As always thanks for the advice and assurance Dave!

[aunali9]

And just one other query I have is that as the pin feathers are opening, one of his wings feathers are a tad bit longer than the other wing. They are both coming out fast but one side have opened up a little more. Is this normal?

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Waiting on Dave again. I'm more knowledgeable for a grey that is two or older, but of course am interested in how things are progressing.Dave I'm sure can help you! It is more responsibility for you to have a baby so young.I can't even imagine, but you are asking important questions and I know you want the best for your baby. nancy

[aunali9]

Thank you for understanding Nancy. No excuse for a stupidity like buying an unweaned baby though. I know there are too many people in the world who buy pets because they look good or may be smart animals. Few people really care. I hope I don't pass off as either but unfortunately even the breeders, sellers, and worst of all the vets in a third world country like Pakistan aren't as knowledgeable as in other parts of the world and generally cater to people who would sell their animals and buy new ones because their fur isn't like it was when they were younger. I'm trying hard to strike a balance between the readily available but inadequate local help and the more detailed yet physically distant advice I'm getting here. As a result I have just too many unanswered questions and opinions in my head. I've chosen to follow Dave's advice through however and have found a capable vet with emergency services. Dave definitely sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Its just daunting when some one tells you face to face that the advice you're taking from the internet is wrong. Makes me think/worry more than I should. After the little one is weaned I think I'll make a thread in the nursery section detailing exactly how and why its so terrifying to get an unweaned bird.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

You can't go wrong with Dave. I will vouch for him. I KNOW, from my heart, you want the best for your baby. You are going to be a FANTASTIC parent!Alot of information coming your way. Get to to sixteen week mark and alot of us can help you. Its just the beginning... but getting baby weaned is very important. Don't rush... its up to the bird. Kiki our Amazon, took nine months. Satisfying the oral stage, is up to the bird. Even called successfully weaned, they may not be so. Bird will let you know. Always Listen to your bird! Nancy

[aunali9]

Will do Nancy. Thanks for everything! I've learned not to put a time frame to anything. Or a quantity really. It's all about learning to read and understand the body language and behavior and remain vigilant

[aunali9]

Dave I'm uploading some videos of my parrot right after a feeding. His voice changes though he doesn't vomit or regurgitate. Today he ate 95ml. His crop looks like a tennis ball not like a golf ball... Just wanted to know what you think. Also I started using a spoon. I feel like its going much easier on him.

 

African grey vocalization after feeding:

[aunali9]

African grey vocalization after feeding 2:

 

That's another one. Its longer and you'll hear the voice better I think.

[aunali9]

I really hope I haven't been abandoned here heh...

[Timbersmom]

I imagine Dave will be along and am sure you haven't been deserted. I have no baby experience so can't help, but what a cutie!

[aunali9]

Haha yeah he is! And really likes to cuddle also. And really annoys me when my girlfriend is over because I get no attention from either of them then Internet in Pakistan is extremely slow so when I have time I will make a thread for him here with videos and all. And to really let people know what all can go wrong with your unweaned parrot OR even the owner. If I think some thing is off about him I'm up all night watching him sleep.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

If Dave is unavailable... perhaps other sites, or listen to your vet? We are not abandoning you, but many of us have experience with birds more around the sixteen age mark. Nancy

[aunali9]

Yes I did look into that Nancy. But other forums just end up flooding you with worst case scenarios and just mess with your head more. I'm actually glad only one person is advising me here.

 

On a very pleasant note, I saw the vet again and he was nice enough to take out the time for me to actually get to know my bird and spend some time with him. He said he has a problem that in his experience happens to one or two out of ever 20 or 30 parrots that he looks over. In the wild an African grey ends up feeding one or more baby more out of a clutch of 3 or 4. This is because of resource constraints as a result of which some babies eventually don't make it. The babies reaction is to beg for food incessantly. In captivity when this happens, at times even to well fed young ones, their begging ends up leading to care givers to over feed them waiting for them to show signs that they are now full. Its an insecurity issue.

 

His solution was that when I'm feeding him, I should pause after every 5 or 10 ml or so for a few days and just play around and cuddle with him for a few minutes. And then resume feeding him and he showed me himself, visually and by touch, a point at which I should stop when the crop is full. The added love and affection is reassuring for the baby and he realises he isn't being neglected for whatever reason.

 

One other issue was also a not toooo uncommon one, that since he is begging all day and his anxiety was relieved by a syringe, he developed a conditioning towards becoming relieved by it. Sort of addicted to it. He proved this in two ways, one was to present him with a spoon full of formula and an empty syringe. He turned away the spoon even after tasting the formula to tug at the syringe which was a) placed away from him b) obviously not able to feed him as it was empty. The second proof was that after feeding him with a spoon, he turned his head from it and wouldn't open his mouth even if I rubbed the sides of the base of his beak or nudged his beak with the spoon. But if I brought the empty syringe even in sight, he would start bobbing his head and begging for food.

 

Since I've basically been just spending more interactive time with him and using a spoon, he has gone back to eating 45 to 55 ml instead of the 100ml+ over feeding.

 

Over feeding: after feeding the 80-90ml+ his voice was hoarse, his breathing strained, he could hardly move, stopped preening or playing. He was sleeping only 4 or 5 hours a night but very inactive and lethargic awake he wasn't even preening or exercising his wings. His poop was less in amount and he was dehydrating. Basically if you think about it he was a very thin person fed a 2kg fatty beef steak. He couldn't digest it, it was pulling water OUT of his system, and he was showing respiratory difficulty because his abdomen was over burdened. He was also bringing up food. Which he hasn't aspirated thankfully BUT EASILY COULD HAVE which is why he was all hoarse. Just like in people the chemicals in the crop are irritant for the birds throat. He wasn't playing with toys or my nose which he loves to do. The biggest problem was I could have given him crop stasis because he was still begging for the reasons above.

 

Since new ways and routine (last 2 days): he is now eating exactly like Dave said he should. He is turning away from the spoon after 45 to 60ml depending on whether its the morning feed or the ones later in the day. After feeding though he's full, he preens himself, stretches, exercises his wings a whole lot, and stops begging completely. I can't tempt him into a single more drop of formula. Best of all he scratches at the side of the tub ive been keeping him in that I've realised means he wants out. Once out he's nibbling at everything in sight, finds my key chain and my phone a blast to mess with, and has been ripping into his toys with a vengeance. He wants to cuddle, and loves being rubbed and scratched around the neck. He responds to my voice and is very active he's pooping every 30 or so minutes. The morning dump is huge, the rest smaller. Took a nibble out of my banana and seemed to like it a lot. I'll be sure to add some to the softened pulses and veggies I leave with him now. His voice isn't hoarse and he even whistled at me today haha. Hope he keeps doing that.

 

I hope this is an end to this episode of problems. But its good to see him being his nutty self again. And many thanks to the grey forums family here, all of you, and Dave especially.

 

I thought this might add to the library of knowledge on this forum. It has been very stressful for me and my pet. Taken a toll on my studies and work. I've had to take 3 valuable days off which were worth it, but NEVER BUY AN UNWEANED BIRD. I came close to giving my baby bird the following problems:

Crop stasis resulting in infections, malnourishment, dehydration, and vomiting.

Vomiting resulting in aspiration and pneumonia and other infections.

Psychological problems that he might live with for the rest of his life.

Death because of all of the above.

[Inara]

Thank you for such an excellent and informative follow up. it is wonderful that you have a vet that took the time to really educate you about both the feeding process as well as about how we condition our birds' behaviors. Your little companion is very fortunate to have such a conscientious steward.

[2birds]

Aunali9, I have not made any comments on your thread because I have absolutely no experience with hand rearing a baby parrot and did not want to just repeat what I've heard. I'm here now to say that I'm really happy that you have resolved the problem with your baby and he is doing well. I'm sure that it was a pretty scary ordeal. Thanks for asking for help with your little guy, he is so dependent on you.

Wishing you a lifetime with your friend and don't forget to share the fun stuff.

[aunali9]

thanks 2birds. he is doing great. i think im in for a tough time though. he is quite the devil even at his age. i might be being silly but i seriously think he has started to show some intellect. he only poops on newspaper for one. whether its the new one at my door step or the old ones i use to cover the floor of his tub or the ground around it. he will waddle as fast he can to it, poop, then waddle back to his toys haha. i will be getting him a cage about 3x3x3 temporarily from my friend. its pointless putting him in the tub. he has learned to use his weight to tip it over and after the first time i thought it could be dangerous. i can tell he is a transformers fan. he wants nothing but my transformers collectibles. im glad they are single piece plastic and unpainted. he is losing the fuzz and getting fully feathered but doesnt show any interest in solid food and treats water like poison

[2birds]

Ha ha, that's pretty cool that he poops only on the paper, I love it. They all seem to love to play with the things that are supposed to be off limits. As far as food and water, he'll get there soon enough. Poison water? Act like it's yours and not his, I bet he'll want it then. LOL

[aunali9]

haha yeah ive noticed that. if i want to tempt him to try something i have to play with it myself first. thats why im trying to give him very chopped up veggies and soaked lentils/pulses that wont make me gag. i eat a tiny bit first then he takes a lick of it, shakes his head and spits it out like it tastes like crap. speaking of which he doesnt mind tasting his own poo as much as he hates any sort of solid food except bananas! im thinking he is trying to make new sounds all the time these days. he just wants nothing better than to croak or whistle or something in my lap. its amazing watching a personality develop out of a lump of greying flesh! im glad i didnt get a dog. and i really do need to decide on a name now. any ideas on how to get him to recognize his own name?

[2birds]

He will learn it eventually. I don't have a grey yet, mine will be weaned in July or August. From what I've read and experience from the parrots that I do have, just talk to them a lot. Explain things to them in simple words and tell them what you are doing while you are doing it. They just pick up on it. I've read that some greys start talking before a year old but they really get going between 1 and 2 years. Just talk to him all of the time and call him by name often. Some greys don't talk at all, I guess they just don't feel like it. But they are still really neat birds.