Isaac Update: Feathers Coming Back

[Elvenking]

I can feel the disappointment and defeat in your posts. Greys are much more intuitive than most people so I believe Issac feels it much more than me. Relax and be your old self as much as humanly possible. I feel Issac isn't sure you are coming home. This plucking started when you went to the hospital if I understand. So tell Issac that you will be back. When I go to the store for off for the morning or afternoon, I always tell my gang that I will be back that I am going to the store or whatever. Talk to Issac let him know what is going on and how you are feeling. Please do not give up on his coming around. Be strong and don't give up, you are all that Issac has so be a good example and encouraging. Your relationship with Issac has always made me envious so be strong, encouraging and hopeful and perhaps so will Issac.

 

I am not sure of what you are hearing from my posts, but Isaac is genuinely loved an insane amount. I'm pretty sure I think of him and do everything a human being can do for a parrot and even go beyond what may be reasonable for some. Sure I am disappointed in having made some progress and then taking another step back again. It is more of a sadness though. It's hard to actually love him and not feel that way. I merely feel for whatever reason he has for plucking his feathers and cannot seem to draw a connection for which I can do anything. However, I am not upset for long. Soon enough, it's back to love and smooches. He is the happiest bird in the world when I see him. Clucking like a chicken, playing with cups, being totally weird. I think anyone would be hard pressed to walk up to a bowl full of feathers and stay cheery all the while. Even so, I do my best not to show him too much. Soon I won't even have that reaction if it continues long enough. He's gonna be loved no matter what. I wouldn't want you to think anything otherwise, he's my best friend.

[SRSeedBurners]

I wouldn't be afraid to post photos of the lil plucker. I love seeing Greys plucked or not.

[chezron]

It is obvious to EVERYONE that you love and treat Isaac like your best friend. Sorry he can't stay unplucked. I feel for you-I REALLY do. It has to be crazy-making and guilt-producing. Sorry you have to go through this. I wish you guys continued success!

[Elvenking]

This afternoon, I have the privilege of seeing him picking at his tummy and his wings. Man...hopefully he won't pull everything again. But hey, what can I do. Can't stop him. I try to distract him, but I can only do so much. I am gonna give him a shower.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Elvenking

[Elvenking]

He ended up not doing too much more damage....and he played with one of his new toys. Now at least I can find more like that one and keep em coming.

[Muse]

I would try something like this if I thought that Isaac had any emotional issues. However, he is the happiest grey this side of the universe for sure. I could not imagine a more vibrant and happy bird in my mind. The Pluck No More was supposed to be a similar remedy. and those folks have already gotten close to 300 of my bucks, and I have no proof that it is having any effect.

 

In doing research on the ingredients of this product I found this. This ALONE was enough to cause me not to consider using this:

The top ingredient in the list is "aconitum napellus" aka monkshood aka wolfsbane.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/102/23/2907.full

 

"A 28-year-old man was admitted to the Emergency Department for syncope after several hours of violent vomiting and diarrhea. A few minutes after arrival, he complained of palpitations followed by a sudden loss of consciousness. An ECG showed a polymorphic ventricular tachycardia degenerating into ventricular fibrillation (Figure 1⇓). Because of recurrent major ventricular arrhythmias, resuscitation was necessary for 1 hour. The patient was eventually admitted to the Coronary Care Unit. Physical examination, ECG (Figure 2⇓), chest x-ray, echocardiogram, and routine blood chemistry were all normal. A history of a previous suicide attempt with rat poison was discovered, and a small bag of Aconitum napellus (wolfsbane, monkshood) seeds was found in the patient’s trousers. After several psychiatric assessments, the patient confessed to ingesting an unknown amount of these seeds for a suicidal purpose."

 

Granted, this was an INTENTIONAL over-ingestion. However it goes on to say:

 

"Aconitum napellus is a beautiful plant with blue or purple flowers (Figure 3⇓). It can be found throughout the world, and it has long been known to be a poison.1 The roots and seeds are freely sold on the herb market for treating musculoskeletal pain. They contain highly toxic C-19 diterpene and norditerpene alkaloids of aconitine, mesoaconitine, and the less toxic hypoaconitine; these compounds activate voltage-dependent Na+-channels in the heart and brain.2 3 The margin of safety between analgesic and toxic doses is very low. In the past, the plant was implicated in some cases of murder. Typical manifestations of poisoning are gastrointestinal, neurological, and cardiovascular, with malignant ventricular arrhythmias.4 Treatment is essentially supportive. No gross or histological cardiac abnormalities have been observed in the few autopsied cases.5 The problem of unregulated herb selling is now under discussion in the Italian Parliament. A new law will soon be passed to regulate herb selling. "

 

ALL medications are based on substances from nature, we as humans have just taken God's work a step further (or several steps in some cases) and 'improved' or synthesized on the substances. Herbal drugs are still DRUGS. The substances are just not refined, AND there is no guarantee of purity or of AMOUNT of active substance. Ever grow hot peppers and have some that are FLAMING hot and some that grow extremely mild despite being a supposedly "hot" variety? Plants do not always contain consistent levels of their active substances.

 

More on the same plant:

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/0379-0738%2894%2990412-X/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1359321?dopt=Abstract

http://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644%2803%2901131-4/abstract

 

Most articles refer to Chinese patients as the use of this herb arises from Chinese herbal medicine.

 

To me, the risk is just not worth it.

 

I am a registered (human) nurse, a huge medical nerd, and not a big fan of massive amounts of substances compounded into one medication. Especially with herbals where you cannot be sure of exact dosages of active substances.

 

I am going to run this product (not the ingredient) past one of our avian vets and see what she says. She's actually certified in Chinese Veterinary medicine including being a certified veterinary herbalist.

[Muse]

Well here is the last update you'll see regarding this. He still picks. He wants to pick. I cannot stop it. No pictures to be seen of my boy anymore. At least I don't have to worry about him plucking, he is gonna do it. Thanks for all the help guys, but it was all for naught. On with life. It's gotta be a habit and I have no way of breaking it. I already donate the majority of free time to my boy, and if that doesn't do it...I mean...what will. I came home this afternoon and his water dish was filled with about 20 feathers broken up. This was unlike any other day, he hasn't plucked many like that in a long time.

 

I just got done buying him 75 bucks worth of new toys after that. I seem to never give up, but I think I have a plucker for life.

 

Megan's been in and out of plucking, despite all attempts to stop it, as well. Sadly, it seems to correspond to my employment (which is sporadic). I am torn. I really do not "need" to work, but the money I make REALLY furthers what we can do as a rescue. I am hoping once we have an outdoor aviary and she has room to fly, she will stop. Wild birds don't do this. (She won't "live" in the aviary as she is way too human-attached to just toss her outside but she will be given LOTS of time to spend outdoors as she did in TX when we had an aviary for them).

 

I feel your pain and the frustration. I feel like I have failed as a parront. But then I remind myself of the trauma we both went through with Marden's death. He was my son and her constant companion and they were bonded to each other. Even with Rasa, it's not the same. While she enjoys Rasa's attentions, she's not cuddling with him or allopreening.

 

Isaac has a fantastic life and lots of love. You've done right by him and that is the best you can do. If he continues to pluck, you cannot blame yourself. Don't be afraid to show pictures. A grey is beautiful whether they pluck or not. We love them for their fantastic minds and personalities, not for how perfect their feathers are.

[Elvenking]

Megan's been in and out of plucking, despite all attempts to stop it, as well. Sadly, it seems to correspond to my employment (which is sporadic). I am torn. I really do not "need" to work, but the money I make REALLY furthers what we can do as a rescue. I am hoping once we have an outdoor aviary and she has room to fly, she will stop. Wild birds don't do this. (She won't "live" in the aviary as she is way too human-attached to just toss her outside but she will be given LOTS of time to spend outdoors as she did in TX when we had an aviary for them).

 

I feel your pain and the frustration. I feel like I have failed as a parront. But then I remind myself of the trauma we both went through with Marden's death. He was my son and her constant companion and they were bonded to each other. Even with Rasa, it's not the same. While she enjoys Rasa's attentions, she's not cuddling with him or allopreening.

 

Isaac has a fantastic life and lots of love. You've done right by him and that is the best you can do. If he continues to pluck, you cannot blame yourself. Don't be afraid to show pictures. A grey is beautiful whether they pluck or not. We love them for their fantastic minds and personalities, not for how perfect their feathers are.

 

He actually doesn't look too bad for a bird with a fuzzy tummy. At least it's not bald. His wings were looking so beautiful again though, so it really hurt to see him pick a few from that area, but he hasn't done nearly the damage he did when he first plucked. He's lookin okay. His charming personality does a lot to overcome it too. I'll post pictures later. My daughter heard him say "Aaaaalright boy" this morning, that's kind of funny.

[Elvenking]

Well, I have reached acceptance for Isaacs plucking. It's bittersweet. The times he plucks(or cuts feathers, cause he doesn't pull them) have no consistency and I have tried everything...

 

New Toys....slow at first, but he has a ton of stuff he plays with. It just goes...play with toys.....preen a lot....and pluck when I think it's the thing to do.

 

Rescue Remedy....Pretty much as if I did nothing at all.

 

Showers every day, sometimes multiple....sometimes with Pluck No More remedy.... Seemed to be working for a while with some minor plucking in between. However, as soon as we hit the winter months, it's just like about a year ago when he first plucked...not quite as bad, but we have fuzz on the tummy and upper wing surfaces.

 

Changed diets all over the place. He's now a pretty health plucking bird.

 

Spending more time with him. I even set some days aside to spend a little more time with him....well...he plucked then too.

 

Of the total time he spends preening, I would say maybe 1% of those result in some actual plucking. However, there is no pattern to it. Sometimes in the cage, sometimes out, but in no particular area of the house. Sometimes he will go 3-4 days without any at all. There are still plenty of feathers to pluck.

 

My new method. If I see him plucking, I just don't even pay attention. I will go vacuum up those feathers afterwards...give him a great big kiss, and move on. He just thinks it is the thing to do I suppose. I just call him my little 'fuzzy boy' now and commit to having a plucker from now on. I pray on occasion to have whatever it is revealed to me, but I guess it just isn't to be. I don't think that he sees anything wrong with breaking feathers off.

 

So a bit less than I had hoped for. However, all can rest assured that he is loved and being taken care of the best I can.

 

So ends this thread....thanks for all the help.

[Elvenking]

Here are some pictures for the curious. So this is really it...the way it is going to have to be.

 

Edited October 27, 2014 by Elvenking

[SRSeedBurners]

Well, it's their spirit that I am in love with. I don't give a damn if they are plucked bald.

[Elvenking]

Well, it's their spirit that I am in love with. I don't give a damn if they are plucked bald.

 

If he is okay, I am. The little guy gets all the love of an only child. It is just when he looks like he does in those pictures....it is hard to imagine that he is okay. I actually wish the ones that stick out would get taken off, the plain fuzz is better than a mix like that.

 

Hey...at least he can't reach his head.

[murfchck]

I gotta say, he looks better than Bongo does. Bongo started destroying his feathers I guess about a month ago, at least your little guy still has feathers here and there. Bongo looks like a little ball of fluff. His feathers are still all there just picked and over preened and fluffy. I am going to have to learn how to put photos together to make one picture so i can show you my naked flock. I shouldn't say this but Lily is the only one of mine not plucked, so 1 out of 9. I look at all those birds that have no toys ever, a bad diet, not sunshine and they have beautiful feathers and I ask, what am I doing wrong??? But i have just come to accept that i run a nudist colony and Lily is just a rebel going against the grain!

[Elvenking]

I gotta say, he looks better than Bongo does. Bongo started destroying his feathers I guess about a month ago, at least your little guy still has feathers here and there. Bongo looks like a little ball of fluff. His feathers are still all there just picked and over preened and fluffy. I am going to have to learn how to put photos together to make one picture so i can show you my naked flock. I shouldn't say this but Lily is the only one of mine not plucked, so 1 out of 9. I look at all those birds that have no toys ever, a bad diet, not sunshine and they have beautiful feathers and I ask, what am I doing wrong??? But i have just come to accept that i run a nudist colony and Lily is just a rebel going against the grain!

 

Yep...that is the toughest part for me right now. I actually had it wired before I wrote my last post, I was over his plucking and just letting it be. However some guilt comes back when I talk about it. Hard to not believe that I am not just missing something. I keep thinking and wondering. But I have beat myself up enough over it. I'll always keep wondering what he is thinking, so maybe something will come one day. Until then...it's "Mr. Fuzzy Butt" for Isaac. That's his new nickname.

[SRSeedBurners]

Murfchck - didn't most of your pluckers come to you that way? I'm not fully up-to-date how all your birds acquired you but I thought most of them adopted you as already fully funtional pluckers.

 

I'm always trying to figure out why these birds pluck. My first Grey was a plucker. I put it down to her cage and the way we trimmed her way back then in the stone age. My manager at work is an interesting case. We both got our birds nearly the same day so they are almost the same age. His started plucking a few months ago. He came to me wanting to know why. My best guess "your bird is home alone all day". I kept after him to get a companion of some sort. His wife started coming home at lunch but unfortunately I think it's become a habit now. I'm just waiting for the day when I see GreycieMae start doing it. I have a whole parrot wardrobe picked out that she will be wearing. Some even have hoodies.

 

I'm the same way, I see some of these rescue birds on FB with horrific stories and they look as healthy as can be. I also see the opposite in which they are plucked bald.

[Acappella]

Steven, if I could I'd give you a big hug. No one doubts that you have given Issac an ideal life. I know you've tried absolutely everything possible to stop his plucking. We all have bad habits, now so does Issac. They're such complex little souls. You may find it therapeutic to write him a little letter in the new sub-room here I'm moderating. I still get the feeling you're blaming yourself for this. Maybe writing it out will help you let go of it. Again, sending psychic hugs your way.

[kins2321@yahoo.com]

Steven....you sounded so depressed, sad, and trying to" reconcile", your feelings that this is how issac would be forever.I could tell from your posts you were not 100% defeated. When I saw the pictures, I was ready for a bird to be 100% bald! I was pleasantly surprised to see Issac actually with the majority of feathers and in the beginning stages of plucking! Sure, its been going on for awhile,but its not as bad as it could be! Now get back in the saddle... do your research, and be strong! You can LOVE Issac forever, but he needs to learn plucking is not psrt of the norm! Nancy

[murfchck]

Yes, most of ours came to us as pluckers. Bongo was our first in all of this and i actually bought him from someone. ( too long a story to get into, but he needed a better home ) He was fully feathered until recently.

Kins, it is really easy to say "he needs to learn plucking isn't the norm" but just teaching them that is impossible. If there were a way, then there wouldn't be so many people with plucked birds and it wouldn't be such a big topic among the bird community. And who ever figures out how to stop this is going to be one rich person! lol Yes, there are triggers but once they start, watch out. There are so many waves of emotion you go through when your birds starts doing this. Blame, guilt, frustration and even anger are all emotions we as the parronts go through until we accept it. One day we see a bunch of feathers coming in and get so excited, the next day they are gone again and we spiral back down to the low point. It is very hard to deal with but we have to trudge on. I understand exactly how you are feeling and if there was anything i could do to help i would in an instant. Give Mr Fuzzy Butt a hug from us and yourself too!

[Elvenking]

Thanks everyone for writing the kind words of encouragement. I'll be thinking up other things to try for sure. He's a good boy.

 

By the way...his newest thing is wire mesh strainer. One of the handheld ones you can use to smooth out flour or strain water from a handful of noodles for your parrot. Anyway...if I had ever imagined that a strainer which costed 9.99 could provide sooooo many hours of fun, I would have given it up a long time ago. I will post some pictures of him playing with it soon in another thread. Maybe video if I can get it up there.

[katana600]

When I saw the most recent pictures of Isaac, I felt a long breath of relaxation and relief. Why? Because Miss Gilbert has had a recent relapse and has chewed off to her fluffy grey underwear down her chest. She has one strip of feathers down the center if her chest, a mohawk style of sorts. She has been a little more quiet for a couple of days. These episodes are less and less frequent. Each time when I come around the corner to a snowstorm and bedraggled little soul, I deflate and spend some time wondering. What has happened to her? What does she need from us? How can we help her? Is she ever going to overcome her past? Then, I see this thread update and I see Isaac. The peace of understanding comes to me. He is the happiest, most loving, engaging and best understood best friend I have witnessed since you brought him home. In the same way a well loved comfortable pair of jeans gets stressed and frayed from everyday wear, so is the way of our greys. There is no magic cure, no forbidding them to be fuzzy and also no guilt or need to fix this for Miss Gilbert. Time has already proven she is okay. She will have occasional setbacks, and she will also be beautiful just the way she is today. Thank you Stephen.