Clicker Training for not biting

[Tweedle]

Hiya, this is in reply to Sanzoni's post....

 

Firstly, I'm pretty well versed in clicker training theory, have read a lot and done a fair bit with dogs, but AM NOT experienced in clicker training with birds. I'd be extremely interested to hear the views of those who are (and reward based non-clicker trainers too). These are just my thoughts, flung out there to consider, and discard if/when better information comes along. I enjoy the process of thinking it through, how could one approach such and such an issue, and what might be the hiccups along the way.

 

I worked through a similar issue with a dog, so if it's ok, will outline what I did there, and then maybe we could discuss an equivalent for parrots? There will be big differences that have to be factored in - as Dave said, birds using their mouth as an extra hand, using it to explore, manouevre and comunicate.

 

I think the number one issue though, is that you do not push your bird. If he is trying to communicate that he does not like what you are trying to do and wishes it to stop, you are pushing him too far. And every time he bites and you withdraw, you have reinforced it - biting makes the thing I don't want stop/go away. Be aware of what his comfort zone is, and work within it, aiming to not trigger a biting response at all.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Tweedle

[Tweedle]

So, Dudley dog was chomping my hand when I was giving him treats. Over enthusiastic, competing with other dogs, teeth met hand regularly. It's easy to end up punishing, once the behaviour you don't want has already happened, and all you can do is react to it. The aim was to train something different BEFORE the chomping could happen. What I did was:

 

1) click and treat (dropped the food on the floor) while the dog was moving towards the hand. Waaaay before he actually got anywhere near to it. Repetitions of this made him hesitate on the way to the hand, rather than just going in all guns blazing

 

2) click and treat for his nose touching the hand. Stopped him going in with his teeth.

 

3) click and treat for the slightest show of a pink tongue

 

4) click and treat for LICKING the actual treat, releasing it onto his tongue.

 

End result = dog licking a treat out of your hand, rather than chomping with teeth.

[Tweedle]

Soo, back to your birds.....

 

You'd need to introduce the clicker training first, there's plenty of information around on how to do that. You'd be best to teach a prop behaviour first, such as targeting an object with his beak. You could then get him to follow the target, including stepping up to get to it. The target keeping his sharp end busy may be enough to stop him biting you at that moment.

 

Once he is used to it, you can use the clicker to mark any behaviour you like. So that would be 'being near my hand but not chomping it'.

 

So, present your hand at a distance he cannot/doesn't want to chomp it. Click and treat for not trying to chomp.

 

Once he is succeeding, you can gradually move your hand closer. If he moves beak towards fingers, remove your hand, no click, no treat. If he makes no move towards chomping, click and treat. The trick is to go slowly, lots of very short sessions and keep him interested in earning the treat.

 

You can build up to very slight touches and tickles in places he likes, eventually increasing duration and areas you can touch.

 

That would be clicking for not touching you, but as has been said, they need to touch to test and taste, which is completely natural and necessary.

 

So maybe it would better to mark and reward gentle mouthing without biting. When he initially 'tastes' your fingers, he gets clicked for it. If he is keen on the clicker training at this point, he will probably let go straight away to collect his treat. Lots and lots of practice of touch and let go, and he will learn that doing it gently is worth his while.

 

You have to go slowly though. If you go to fast....if you go too fast, and try touching him too much when he doesn't want it, if he bites you and you withdraw, he has learnt that BITING is worth his while, as it makes the thing that he doesn't want (touching) stop.

[Guest jamalbirdbiz]

this training seems too involveded for me so i think i am gonna pass.

 

my birds r pretty much free "to go" (if u know what I mean) whereever they want and do whatever they want when at home.

 

R house is bird proofed.

[Tweedle]

Yes, my bird is free to do her own thing too, I don't ask much of her at all.

 

I'm not wanting to get to the stage of mega cuddles for my own benefit or anything (I've got dogs for that!), but being able to carry out husbandry tasks without worrying her, or move her wherever is necessary without a problem would be great.

 

 

Oh, could anyone recommend any particular training books/DVD's (clicker or otherwise), there are so many out there! I've got Melinda Johnson's book.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Tweedle

[venom]

thing i have a problem with is you have the bird in 1 hand & clicker in the other!! wish i had a third hand

[Tweedle]

Agreed! I don't actually use a clicker with my bird, I make a particular noise with my mouth.

 

There's no reason you can't use a specific word, but it should be one that the bird doesn't hear in any other context, so that there is a 1:1 ratio of hearing the noise and being rewarded.

 

I also mostly don't use food as a reward with Pippa at the moment, as the only thing she would accept is peanuts! She would actually prefer to have a head scratch. The reward should be what the ANIMAL considers a reward, whether it be food, touch, attention, or even going away! What's the birdie equivalent of getting the tail wagging? heehee

 

So it's the principle of MARKING the behaviour we like (click, whistle, kissy noise, word etc) in a consistant way, and following that mark with a REWARD (food, touch, attention, toys, games, access to something, going away), that we are aiming for.

 

I'd really like to see more video of clicker principles applied to birds, help me make that crossover in my thinking from dogs. My dogs are easy - they always want the sweeties, all the time. Pippa however, is much more independant, has her own agenda, and if she thinks you are trying to *make* her do something, will refuse. Like a child. I think that's the joy of clicker training for me, that you are not making them do anything, they are free to do it, or not, as they wish.

 

I don't believe clicker training is the be all and end all of training, by any means, but that in understanding the principles behind it, I have a much better grasp of how animals learn.

[sanzoni]

Thanks a lot tweedle for making this thread. It definetly helps when people show what they have done with their bird instead of always just watching video. Videos aren't always as detailed.

[sanzoni]

And also... I been doing the target training along with the clicker. Should I be using my finger to do the touch and let go or should I stick to the target stick that I am using for a little while and then use my finger as the "target stick".

[GoDiego]

I been doing the target training along with the clicker. Should I be using my finger to do the touch and let go or should I stick to the target stick that I am using for a little while and then use my finger as the "target stick".

 

I have been target training Diego who seems to have picked it up really well. I had watched many videos saying when they are used to the stick to move onto the finger. I did this but only for a couple of sessions as I was finding that Diego kept on making a dart for my finger, thinking that he was going to get a treat for chomping on my finger. I've reverted back to only using the stick and he has now stopped with the finger grabbing. This may just be something that did not work for Diego, but may work ok for others. You can always give it ago and if it does not seem to work for you, change back to the stick.

[Tweedle]

The nice thing about a 'prop' behaviour, such as a stick, or an object, is that the object itself becomes the cue, the signal to perform the behaviour. When the object is presented, their job is to touch it, or whatever.

 

This is the difficulty of using yourself as the target - they will keep throwing the behaviour at you and look for that finger in order to earn a reward!

 

To combat this you would have to give the behaviour a different, specific cue - basically you only get a reward if I have asked for the behaviour, not if you offer it spontaneously.

 

I made this mistake with the same border collie - the first behaviour I ever taught him was to give a paw, but failed to put it on cue, so he kept whacking me with a paw to demand treats all the time. Most annoying!

 

So if you wanted the bird to touch your finger, but only on cue, you would have to pick your cue word ('Touch'?) and practice the following:

 

Present finger > Cue word > bird touches > click and treat

Present finger > No Cue word > bird tries to touch > no click, no treat

Present finger > No Cue word > bird doesn't try to touch > click and treat

 

You'd need to practise them all lots, and mix them up, so that it is clear that targeting the finger gets the reward ONLY if the word 'Touch' comes first. If they are very eager to go for that finger, you need to get in there quick with the click and treat for not touching, in order to get the message across. You can gradually extend the period the finger is presented for before C&T for not touching, or, eventually giving the cue word and C&T for touching.

 

It took me quite a while of clicker training with dogs before someone explained this, that you can click and treat for NOT doing the behaviour when you haven't asked for it, because that was the correct response. It made a huge difference to getting the behaviour 'on cue' and not happening 'off cue'. Takes a bit of thinking to get your head round, I can have another go at explaining if it's confusing....

[Tweedle]

Oh - you could always attach a cue word to the behaviour when you are using the target stick - so it's not actually the presentation of the stick, but the word that cues the behaviour. Then it would be easier to transfer it, already on cue, to the finger.

[Guest jamalbirdbiz]

do theys have boarding schools for birds were u cans send ur birds for this sort of training. i think this is way to time consuming and reallly i ould be concerned about inflicting any training trauma on my birds. they have both been thru a lot in there lives and i am unwilling to manipulate them to get them to do things my way. so by sending them to a boarding type school i could blame the school if they mistreat them in any way. i am american so i would like to know of american schools for birds only that are experts in training parrots of the grey varietee.

[Tweedle]

I'm not sure whether you're taking the mick or serious :confused:

 

The whole point is that it's not a training trauma, they completely have the choice to play or not to play. And that's the way we present it, as a fun game, there's no shouting, no physical chastisement at all.

 

I completely understand where you're coming from with a rescue bird, particularly one that has a traumatic past, in not wanting to impose anything unneccesary on them, and just give them the freedom to 'be'.

 

But in my case, with my rescue bird, there are certain things that have to be done, and training them in a positive way massively reduces stress.

 

For example, Pippa is out of her cage all the time that I am home. When I go out she needs to go back in the cage. When she first arrived, you would have to physically place, or herd her into her cage, something that was very stressful for her. She has now been taught to take herself back to her platform when I ask 'Back to bed, Pippa?'

 

She also needs medication every day. She will now move to a specific place every day, waiting to touch her tongue on the end of the syringe to take her one drop of Metacam. Again, no chasing around, no physical oppression.

 

As for it being time consuming, heck, aren't we hoping for 50 years with these guys? We've got plenty of time. Training sessions themselves literally last a few minutes, they're not being drilled for hours and hours at a time. I train during advert breaks, and maybe only do 5 quick repetitions of a particular thing, if she is interested in doing it.

 

As for sending them away (*hopes you're just trying to wind me up*) what about the bond? Apart from the damage separation could do, training enhances your bond, strengthens trust, and adds stimulation to both lives.

 

And as I said before, I don't believe clicker training is the 'only' way, by any means. I am not a regimented school ma'am, I don't buy in to 'scolding' them.

 

We are all training our birds, all the time, with every single interaction reinforcing some behaviours and diminishing others. All I'd like to do is make my communication with Pippa as clear and gentle as possible, and understanding the way she learns helps that.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Tweedle

[GoDiego]

i ould be concerned about inflicting any training trauma on my birds. they have both been thru a lot in there lives and i am unwilling to manipulate them to get them to do things my way.

 

I love training Diego, and he really does not see it as training but playing with his mummy. I only spend 10 minutes at a time doing the training so that he does not get bored with the repetitiveness, then finish it off playing with one of his favourite toys. We both look forward to our training sessions, and when Diego sees the stick coming out, he gets really excited in his eyes, it's treat and quality time with mummy time!

 

I think training can be thought of as very regimented as most humans when they think of training, remember long boring hours in a meeting room or school. As long as training a parrot is based only on FUN, FUN, FUN I think it is a great way of bonding and enjoying our feathered friends

[shanlung]

thing i have a problem with is you have the bird in 1 hand & clicker in the other!! wish i had a third hand

 

 

How about throwing in that 'target stick' in as well.

 

Such as here taken with Tinkerbell in early 2002.

The other hand was holding the camera