To clip or not to clip?

[dhorje]

Sometime last year, one Sunday morning I was walking my Grey in the street. We were walking past some shops. Suddenly my Grey took flight because she was spooked by the noise of a roller shutter when a lady was opening up her shop. She flew in circles (she was wearing a harness) until she dropped on the ground. Before I could pick her up, a cat came out from nowhere pounced on her. She quickly flew to me. That saved her life, being flighted.

 

Being flighted, my Grey gives me a lot of headaches in the house. But I won't take the freedom of flight away from her to make life easier.

 

On the brighter side, flighted parrots are more joyful and full of antics. I will definitely miss my Grey if I clip her wings. She will no longer a "real" Grey.

[KHAN]

wow i've never seen anyone taking a grey for a walk in the street, except for the fact that there's dangers like the one you had but they are valuable animals.... I would be worried about someone following me back and breaking in to steal it!

[Jayd]

You know as many knowledgeable people there seems to be on this board unless it has already been done it may be a good idea to have a FYI sticky up about the actual true pros and cons of clipping versus flighted.

Maybe some of the knowledgeable members here could make a nice detailed Post/Chart on the subject.

Thank you for your opinion. We just started a new Thread with links concerning the most ask questions, it easy to use and access, sort of a FYI! "It's in the Welcome and Introduction Room" titled: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190489-Welcome-PROSPECTIVE-and-NEW-GREY-Owner-s Each thread and post is a detailed account of what people think and the consensus of what people think at any given time.Opinions can change by the hour, day, week, month or yearly, it depends on who the members are at any given time...

Thank You

Jayd

[Birdnut]

Our birds are flighted, and we are fortunate that both our pet store operator and vet understand and accept our decision. Our vet does have some concern about the larger birds being flighted, as he worries about them maneuvering safely within the confines of a house, but we have found that they manage quite well. We have made our house as bird-safe as we know how. All the windows in the living area have blinds (which I keep set at a slight angle so that a collision with the blinds would buffer the force, rather than offer a hard edge. Small windows with no blinds have colored glass ornaments, stickers, etc. in them. In the bird room we have pvc shutters (the conures dismantled the blinds in there in short order!). We have no children to run in and out of doors, and my husband and I have a protocol for opening doors to the outside. If we have guests, we only bring birds out of the bird room after discussing these cautions with our guests. We do the best we can, but realize that accidents can happen, and would then take responsibility for our decisions.

 

Some of our particular reasons for leaving the birds flighted:

 

I just got to thinking about how much of a bird's physical and mental capacity is engineered for flight. It made sense to me that it was a important for normal neurological development. All of our birds have come to us with at least some clipping, so hopefully, they acquired flight soon enough to realize some of this benefit. All of them have adapted very well and are good fliers.

 

We have a variety of parrots of different sizes, from a parrotlet to a cockatoo (and now the grey). We have made the bird room as bird-safe as we can, with lots of hanging toys like a big cargo net, boings, etc. We like to allow the birds the freedom of the room during the day, and sometimes out in the house at large, when there's no cooking or other hazard going on. We feel that being flighted allows the various birds to interact safely, with the capacity to fly away from another bird if they feel threatened. This has allowed them to work out their various relationships naturally, and they get along well. (I actually think the reason sometimes given to clip, that a bird may get on another bird's cage and be injured, is more of a reason not to clip.)

 

Flighted birds may get into trouble more easily, but they can also get out of trouble more easily. For example, a small bird that starts to land on the suds in the kitchen sink will just feel the touch of something that "ain't right" on its feet and fly off, rather than possibly drowning.

 

We have found that our most unruly fids, our pair of blue-crowned conures, are more inclined to fly to us than away from us. I have also not received a good bite from them since they have been flying. They're still a pain in the ass, but they're now happy pains in the ass.

 

Our blue-headed pionus, Iris, came to us as a rehome and was overweight and overclipped. She was awkward and clumsy and very shy and afraid of the other birds. Since she has been flying, she has come down to a good, healthy weight, and she is confident and mischievous and will get in there and scrap with the other birds for a favorite treat. For a heavy-bodied bird, she is a very agile flier. I mean, come on, this is a canopy bird and evolved to fly among the branches, etc. of the rain forest; she can certainly handle the doorways, etc. of the house!

 

Having flighted birds certainly means taking extra trouble, but we feel it's been worth it for us. It's certainly a personal decision, and I suppose it will always be a controversial topic, but this is what seems to work best for our household and our flock.

[venom]

well after my little scenario the other day with milo i would be lying if i didnt think that the 1st thing if i get her back is to get her clipped! calmed down a bit now but still unsure what to do , i would hate to go through that again !!!, i love that bird !!

[Birdnut]

@venom: Sure don't blame you for feeling that way. That experience would have given me a heart attack, and can't say that after that I might not be feeling the same way. Do try to let your emotions settle and make a calm, reasoned decision, whatever that turns out to be. I know you have your baby's best interest at heart and will do what you think best.

[Jayd]

Wonderful Post, To watch Spock or one of are larger birds lift off vertically, then transition to level, turn on a dime and land on a moving finger in 2 feet, they have no problem in confined spaces.. Jayd

[Jayd]

well after my little scenario the other day with milo i would be lying if i didnt think that the 1st thing if i get her back is to get her clipped! calmed down a bit now but still unsure what to do , i would hate to go through that again !!!, i love that bird !!

And if he was clipped, and flew and couldn't get back?

Your decision will be right for you, no matter what it is, and I'll stand behind you.....Jayd, Maggie, Spock and the Flock!

[jessdecutie18]

wow i've never seen anyone taking a grey for a walk in the street, except for the fact that there's dangers like the one you had but they are valuable animals.... I would be worried about someone following me back and breaking in to steal it!

 

Plenty of people take their birds out, at least on harnesses

[jessdecutie18]

I am completely against clipping. I've shared the story too many times now to go over it again here, but I've clipped before with a previous bird and it didn't help anything. I regretted it so much. IMO clipping is selfish and a mean thing to subject to a naturally flying creature. Yoshi was clipped before I got her and her new flights are growing in now It's obvious that birds love to fly.

 

Now, while my opinion is strong, I will not go out and critisize other with a different view than me. If you feel your bird should be clipped, and I'm sure you have ALL the information on the dangers that still exist and the possibilities of a less happy bird suffering or even never experiencing something it was meant to do for your human convenience, well of course I'll disagree, but that's that. Everyone does what they think is best, it's just up to others to help inform them so they can understand whats best.

 

It makes me sad when I see a 'my bird flew away' story, and the owner gets their bird back, and immediately clips their wings. "I'll never let that happen again! I'll clip the wings as that's responsible!" That idea is so far from the truth, the ability to fly was never the problem, but more the owner's lack of responsibility. If my kid jumps into a pool when I'm not watching and almost drowns, I'm not going to say "I'm keeping my kid away from pools for the rest of her life." No, I'll be more responsible in watching my kid and not take away something fun to them. Just my thoughts...

 

I'd say more, but I've gotta go

Edited July 27, 2010 by jessdecutie18

[dhorje]

wow i've never seen anyone taking a grey for a walk in the street, except for the fact that there's dangers like the one you had but they are valuable animals.... I would be worried about someone following me back and breaking in to steal it!

 

My Grey is probably the most traveled parrot in my country. I take her to jungle hiking 3X a week.

And also she enjoyed her daily 250ft outdoor flight until lately because her landing platform had been repainted. She got spooked by the change.

[Keywe]

well its obvious that there is a strong opinion on here about this debate... I feel like I've been persecuted on here because I stated that I am for clipping... I am trying to keep an open mind about this, reading all of the pros of having an unclipped bird, and although I am far from a bird specialist, I am a bird freak, and have only the best intentions for Keywe. The Doctors at the vet that we go to are all avian specialists, certified and what not, and all have birds themselves. They are all for clipping as I stated earlier, and yes, I know even though they are doctors, they don't always know best. That's why I am trying to be open-minded here. Comments like the "clipped camp" are a little ridiculous to me...Just because you have such a strong opinion about it doesn't necessarily make it the correct one, not to say that mine is right either. I'm not calling you all the "unclipped cool camp" or anything though. By no means do I feel that I am being selfish because I have her clipped... I feel I'm being responsible, just as you are for not clipping. Am I handicapping her growth and development by doing this? I guess I wouldn't know until I let her grow out her flight feathers and see the miraculous difference in her behavior. She's yapping and talking away right now as I type this, and seems to be as happy as ever...Maybe I'll take her outside to enjoy the nice evening here

[judygram]

It all boils down to our own preference, I have my birds flighted even though one is incapable of flight at the moment but I respect others opinions if they feel they must clip their bird for whatever reason, it could be a good reason and no one else knows better than the one wearing the shoes. This will always be a touchy subject with people having strong opinions for both sides and as long as we keep that in mind then there is no problem, to each their own.

[danmcq]

Keywe:

 

I personally do not like the term used against those whom have chosen to clip "Being Selfish" or for "Convenience". I believe those who do clip (Such as You) consulted those you consider the "experts" on Avian care you had to consult with at the time. I have no doubt they have both the owners and the birds best interests in mind when they advise on clipping.

 

One thought on clipping. It became the "Defacto Standard" many decades ago for Parrot breeders, Pet shops and those whom purchased and took those parrots home. Thus, you would see beautiful Macaws and other Parrots sitting in a pet shop on a stand for all to poke at and muse over. It was all based on not wanting you to lose your much loved bird and also due to the thought of an owner not being cautious enough to "Bird Safe" there home for a flighted family member. Thus the safest solution, clip your bird.

 

Avian medicine and understanding of Parrots and their well being has advanced greatly over the last 10 years or so. They now recognize the birds brain is made for visual acuity and fast image processing due to the large frontal lobes being primarily used for vision and flying calculations as they dart through trees and other obstacles at 30+ miles per hour. They can swoop, turn and navigate through without a scratch. A Human would be "George of the Jungle" smacking into to everything in their path at those speeds because we are not "Wired" that way. Also, due to the bodily needs for high levels of oxygen while beating those wings with heart pound and blood racing through to feed the muscles. They have MANY air sacks in addition to the lungs to ensure a "Turbo Charged, Ram Air System" to keep them going on and on and on with oxygen to spare.

 

The scientists and Avian Specialists have determined those early formative weeks of fledging and learning to fly are highly important not only to the physical development, but also to the mental and coordination development of all our avian friends.

 

The other thing they have found, is due to the intelligence of our birds, they quickly learn what a window, mirror, bad perching spot and good perching spot are, just as they do in nature, minus the windows and mirrors. They are more confident, coordinated and mentally functioning than a clipped bird. They are also less likely to ever start plucking or developing heart or arterial disease than a clipped comparatively sedentary bird.

 

I would ask all who are on the fence of whether to clip or not, to please research all the resources available on clipped versus non-clipped by medical and scientific professionals. Please to not rely on people or websites just regurgitating what they "Believed" for the last 3 decades or heard from a friend or friend of a friend. Just remember, your birds enjoyment of it's life is determined by your choices to either leave your bird as created, with the natural instinct and desire to travel by flight so it can soar to safety, fly around screaming like a pterodactyl in glee and banking like an indy 500 car or scramble about on the floor completely reliant upon you for safe transportation to the next room.

 

All I ask, is to embrace what science has found, then and only then make your decision.

Edited July 28, 2010 by danmcq

[tarm]

And just becasue someone or even a group disagrees with your position or opinion does not mean you are being persecuted. Hey its your bird its up to you but forums are meant for generating discussion and giving opinions. To "Persecute" means to oppress or harass or to otherwise go out of your way to be hostile towards someone in this case for a belief. Show me exactly who has gone out of there way to do these things liike this to you on here? Rather than crying foul why not explain why you support clipping and how it liis better for the birds? I could easily debate both sides of it even though I have a personal position.

 

I can see times where it may be necessary to do light clippings on birds but as a general rule I think it should be the exception not the standard. That is the real issue for me. Without any thought to the negatives to the bird for such a long time the standard practice was to clip. Lets be real and honest clipping is not done for the birds interests its done of the human owners best interests. If you really had the best interests for the bird in mind you would not purchase a bird if you knowinly planned to clip it. Now rehome etc gets things murky and I can see it giving a better life and this goes back to what I said before it may have its place but should in no way be the standard without serious considerations. As far as vets supporting this I can also show you a ton of vets that think all kinds of things that are flat out 100% been proven to be incorrect and bad. More is learned everyday and positions and recommendations are changed to accommodate what is learned. Further,wing clipping is not only not popular but actually seen as animal cruelty in a number of countries in Europe. These are actual entire countries that have looked at the issue and felt so strongly they passed legislation.

Edited July 28, 2010 by tarm

[Jayd]

I feel like I've been persecuted on here because I stated that I am for clipping... I feel I'm being responsible, just as you are for not clipping. Am I handicapping her growth and development by doing this? I guess I wouldn't know until I let her grow out her flight feathers and see the miraculous difference in her behavior. She's yapping and talking away right now as I type this, and seems to be as happy as ever...Maybe I'll take her outside to enjoy the nice evening here

 

I've just reread this thread a couple of times, With all due respect I couldn't find anything that would point to persecuting you, some good healthy debating, and a couple of words that shouldn't have been used. I've stated my opinion and also stated that if one chooses to clip, it's there right, no one else's. I also stated I'd stand behind what ever decision was made!!! About your statement of " I guess I wouldn't know until I let her grow out her flight feathers and see the miraculous difference in her behavior."

I gave you three example of what really happens, did you look at the post's i made??? Tell you a story, Freddy, 19 years never knowing how to fly, one day, he spread his almost featherless wings and jumped from his cage door,,,,,he fell, I kind of caught him, as I did he started biting me, he didn't realize I was trying to stop him from getting hurt, he bit me a few times, drawing blood, all trust we had was lost in that few second's, I'll never be able to hold him again, everytime I try, he try's to bite me, he's Maggie's baby now.

I'm going to apologize to everyone who feels they were offended, let's get back to this debate.....Jayd

[Loki'sMinion]

OK, I wasn't going to post but decided to anyway. Forums always have a majority and a minority no matter what and it always has one particular subject that causes a very heated debate. This forum it tends to be clipping.....

 

I am part of the minority here in that my Loki WILL be clipped. Why? Because I strongly believe it will be safer for her in the long run. I have 3 children in the house ranging from 10 to 16 years old. I constantly have other children coming and going because of this. My doors are always opening and closing, sometimes they stand there chatting at an open door while my air conditioning is batting away and I am telling them to close the darn door . I have ceiling fans in every room which run constantly and I have other dangers that can not be bird proofed. Since she will be spending 95% of her time outside of her cage, Loki will have a clip as to allow her to gently glide downward but not attain any upward lift as I feel this is the safest way to keep her from flying out an open doorway or flying into spinning fan blades.

 

I know this isn't generally accepted by the majority here but this is my decision for my bird. I consider all aspects before I commit to anything and this is the safest solution I find for my baby.

[danmcq]

A note of caution on a non-flighted bird and children as guests. I speak from experience with 7 grandchildren ranging from the age of 6 months to 19 years old. Children and teens always get excited and do not pay attention to their surroundings, much less a 12 inch tall bird that is standing right next to their feet trying to start chewing on the shoe or looking up at them. They will accidently step on the bird or punt it across the room as they begin to move somewhere.

 

Personally, if I have more than 2 kids at my house, I am either there watching at all times or I cage my grey. This is with him being flighted! I do not worry about doors opening or closing, as everyone that visits my house has been made VERY AWARE of the fact that they back out of doors, they do not just open the door and walk out. If guests are over that do not know this, my birds are caged.

 

I just wanted to ensure that no one gets a false since of security due to their birds being clipped. A flightless bird has dangers they encounter as well and they have no way of fleeing safely or quickly.

 

I do want to make clear, I am not judging anyone for their personal decisions. This is intended only to help make them aware of dangers to their bird.

[Loki'sMinion]

I like that you have people back out of the door. Unfortunately for me, I have people like my mother who happen to just "pop over for a visit" without prior knowledge and she would "forget" from one visit to the next LOL She honestly thought Loki was a "tropical penguin" I was rehabbing from the gulf oil spill when Loki was about 5 weeks old haha

[danmcq]

She honestly thought Loki was a "tropical penguin" I was rehabbing from the gulf oil spill when Loki was about 5 weeks old haha

 

LOL!!!!

 

Thanks for the morning laugh!

[Talon]

Hmmm. Backing out the door. Shame on me, it never crossed my mind. I have 2 teenagers living at home and when their friends are here, I too cage my birds like Dan as the door opens and closes like a swinging door. No matter how many times you yell at them to go in and out quickly, they never do. So for safety sake, they have to go in their cages.

[tarm]

I know this might not work in all door foyer setups but could not a 2 piece shear curtain be hung on say a pressure rod in front of the door/ door way/ foyer. That way when someone came in or out they had that apparent barrier that should prevent a bird from flying out an open door as I woudl think any bird woudl not think to bust thru it in flight even though it likely could. It would see it as a wall of sorts. For houses where people are coming in and out all the time this could help add a extra step of security. It woudl function much the way walk-in freeze door flaps work. They are easy for us to walk in and out of but still create a barrier that something like a bird would not happen to be able to, while in flight, dart out. The way my front door is and the foyer I can hang a push rod up with a set of shear curtains. If we have actual formal company or a real get together where the bird will be in its cage or another room it is instantaneous to take down and put back up. Anyway thought I woudl throw that out there as a possible idea.

[Loki'sMinion]

Tarm,

In my situation that would not work since I don't have any walls where a pressure rod could be mounted (Door is on a long flat wall in living room), but for other people where the walls allow and they wish to keep their birds flighted, it is a pretty good idea.

[Dave007]

Tarm

Any type of non-see through item such as a curtain or other similar thing would be good in your situation. Just make sure it's really easy for you to open up when you're finished. If you do use that, make sure your bird doesn't get startled by the opening and closing. They should slide easily from left to right. You'll need to practice.

Some people even use a long type of covering which is actually strings of beads that hang down. I've seen them in different colors. As long as anything you put on can be seen by the bird, it'll serve as a deterrant. Other people use curtains or beads in areas that have a large doorway leading outside of a house such as into a backyard( good idea if your bird lives in that room).

[Jayd]

I know this might not work in all door foyer setups but could not a 2 piece shear curtain be hung on say a pressure rod in front of the door/ door way/ foyer. That way when someone came in or out they had that apparent barrier that should prevent a bird from flying out an open door as I woudl think any bird woudl not think to bust thru it in flight even though it likely could. It would see it as a wall of sorts. For houses where people are coming in and out all the time this could help add a extra step of security. It woudl function much the way walk-in freeze door flaps work. They are easy for us to walk in and out of but still create a barrier that something like a bird would not happen to be able to, while in flight, dart out. The way my front door is and the foyer I can hang a push rod up with a set of shear curtains. If we have actual formal company or a real get together where the bird will be in its cage or another room it is instantaneous to take down and put back up. Anyway thought I woudl throw that out there as a possible idea.

tarm, thank you, what a grey't suggestion, and Dave's reply is spot on. Lisa, on our flat wall we just use a curtain rod...

Jayd