To clip or not to clip?

[Guest]

Hi, everyone,

 

I am new here, and have mostly been reading and enjoying the site. However, an interaction I had with a bird store owner last night has prompted me to step out of the shadows and post in the hopes of getting some feedback.

 

May I please say as a caveat that I am not a computer person so if I make a mistake in where I've posted or how I post, please forgive me. I have read the FAQ and am hoping I'm in the right place.

 

Anyway, last night I went to a bird store that I discovered only a few months ago. I stopped in to ask if they thought my bird's beak was too long, and if they thought perhaps she needed a visit to the vet. (I've read about something called beak and nail disease and worried that somehow she had that, though her nails aren't abnormally long.) They said no, her beak isn't abnormally long, but perhaps I should buy her more toys that she can destroy. (Well, she has soooooo many toys and her beak gets a big work out but it seems to grow quickly, too.) So I purchased (yet another) tough plant-based, woodeny fibrous toy for her to destroy and was about to leave, when the owner of the store (the one who just took my cash, lol) barked at me that I am "a completely irresponsible parrot owner to not have my bird's wings clipped." Her tone was aggressive and angry and I was taken aback, but I decided to listen to what she had to say on the subject in case she presented a point I had not yet thought of or heard about.

 

I have been going to that store twice or thrice a week for several months and I've noticed the owner becoming cooler and cooler to me, and have just fluffed it off. I mean, not everyone in the world is going to like me, right? So whatever.. But now I realize that the more my CAG's wings have grown in, the more cool she has become to me. And that is fine - at least now I know why.

 

When I talked to her, I expressed that it was not that I had not given the issue any thought. In fact, as my CAG's wings have grown in, I have thought about the pros and cons of clipping or not clipping every day - and I mean EVERY DAY. She proceeded to tell me story after story of people who had lost their birds, or whose birds had flown into screen doors and hurt themselves, or other household objects. I nodded politely and acknowledged that it would indeed be terrible if my sweet girl flew away, especially because the next day she'd likely look around and wonder when her warm breakfast would be arriving. She all but rolled her eyes and acted as if I was dumb as a pile of wet cardboard and continued her RANT. And I mean RANT.

 

The whole interaction was disturbing to say the least. I mean, this is not my first parrot, I'm an intelligent person, and I have given a LOT of thought to this. Plus, my bird can't actually fly-fly yet. (Yes, I know, if spooked AND there was a gust of wind AND we were outside AND I didn't have a good hold of her, she could fly off.) She only has three feathers - two on one wing and one on the other - and yet the owner of the store talked to me for a good 15 minutes. (I'm not exaggerating. Even when she got a phone call, and I went to leave, she said, "Hold on - this will just take a moment." Then she continued talking to me as if I had not heard a word.)

 

I have read many of the posts on this site, but haven't been a member very long and have certainly not read all the posts. (Plus, I haven't even quite yet figured out how to navigate the forums yet!) But my thought on the subject is that if you are responsible, then your bird should be flighted. And yes, accidents happen and it is truly tragic when that does happen. But heck, just as when you have a human toddler in the house, you take precautions that you wouldn't otherwise, so too do you take certain precautions when you have a flighted parrot in the house.

 

A little about me and my "flock" - I am single, live in a tiny house that I rent, and have two dogs, a cat, a bare-eyed cockatoo, and a Congo AG. I had a TAG and a 'tiel years ago but when that relationship split, we decided together that rather than continuing to share the TAG and 'tiel, he would keep both birds. (He was more financially capable than I at the time and owned his own home, etc.) I also had a parrotlet for years but he passed away last year.

 

My current parrots are both rescues. The bare-eyed I have had only for a couple of months. (I'd like to post about him some other time if it is ok to do so - he is a true mystery to me in his behavior. But I realize this is a GREY board so was not sure if it is ok to post a thread specifically about another type of parrot.) My CAG I have had for six months almost to the day. She is supposedly three-and-a-half years old and when I got her, she HATED me and my home. She took every opportunity to give me SEVERE bites - some which broke the skin and some of which did not but were truly painful. She glared at me and growled. But I realized that she was yanked from her home that she knew and was now in a new home and had no say about it. So I was loving and patient and consistent with her and voila, one day she started warming up to me. We are now the best of friends and love eachother dearly.

 

Thank you all for any advice, opinions, and thoughts you can pass along. I'd write more about my sweet girl but the coffee shop in which I am posting this is closing and I must now leave. Plus this is getting really long.

[Jayd]

Welcome and thank you for your devotion, and re-homing rescues!!! Thank you about not clipping!...Make your post about your TOO, in "Other Birds.. We'd all love to hear about you and your fids.. Never to long...lol Jayd, Maggie, Spock and the Flock

[aeriga]

Welcome

How rude, of the store owner to reprimand you from doing what you think best. I can tell you that most members here disagree with clipping. And frankly you should just tell the owner that you value her opinion but you disagree and she needs to mind their own business or you may be forced not to shop there anymore. (you know if it gets that bad I guess). Maybe you can find another store or perhaps shop online. if you go almost 2-3 times a week I'm sure you could spend enough to get free shipping.

But congrats on sticking to your guns

I would love to see some pictures one day.

[rbpittman]

Welcome Aeriga, glad you found us.

 

As the owner of 2 greys, 1 u2, 2 conures and 4 parakeets I am a firm believer that no bird should ever be clipped. It is our responsibility to care for them, especially since we have them from their natural environment and that includes leaving them as intact as possible if we are going to be owned by them. I have had many discussions with the local shop owners here and while they are proponents of clipping, they do so in the spirit of not knowing exactly how the home is equipped to deal with a flighted bird or how knowledgable the bird owner is. Does this excuse your experience, not in the slightest. The best thing you can do is either find some other place to shop or ignore the idiotic person when you shop there. If he/she chooses to lecture you again, simply cut them off and say "I've heard your speech before and you made your points, however, you are not me, you don't know me, and you don't know the precautions or the experience I have with birds. If you wish to keep me as a customer I suggest you keep your opinions to yourself, otherwise I will be forced to voice my opinions to all my friends and acquaintances who also have birds that use your facilities. It works every time I guarantee it.

 

BTW - lovely to hear you took in rescues, they are the best babies to have!

[danmcq]

Welcome!!

 

You hit the nail on the head writing " But my thought on the subject is that if you are responsible, then your bird should be flighted. And yes, accidents happen and it is truly tragic when that does happen. But heck, just as when you have a human toddler in the house, you take precautions that you wouldn't otherwise, so too do you take certain precautions when you have a flighted parrot in the house. "

 

All my birds are fully flighted as well and will never be clipped.

[Talon]

Dan said it well. I agree, my 2 greys came to me clipped, but are now free flighted in my home. My amazon also was clipped and after 8 months, now has 3 flight feathers on each wing and can't wait to fly like she sees the others do! I am a firm believer in NOT clipping, (although it is nice to put your bird down and know that it will be in the same spot when you return to the room... , but that is a huge price the bird pays for our selfishness.)

[Guest]

Hi again, everyone,

 

Thank you all for your kind welcomes and for your responses. I am so glad to hear everyone's words and thoughts, and am most likely going to let her wings grow in. I am surprised that not one person said they think I should clip her, though.

 

I noticed today another clipped wing feather had fallen out so in a couple or so weeks she will have another feather. :-)

 

Thanks again to all of you who welcomed me and who gave me your thoughts on the subject of wing-clipping.

 

>^..^<

[Luvparrots]

So glad to hear that you are going to let your grey take flight!!! Welcome to the Grey family!!!

[judygram]

Hello >^..^< and welcome to our family, so glad you could join us and we look forward to hearing more about you and your fids.

I like your log in "name" but would you share your first name with us.

I won't go into detail of what I would have said to the pet store clerk but she should mind her own business if she wants my business, enough said.

It doesn't surprise me that no one spoke in favor of clipping the wings but we do have a few members who do clip their birds wings and it is a personal choice and they may have very good reasons for doing so but most members do not clip and it is our responsibility to make sure we make our homes bird safe and be diligent about keeping exterior doors closed to prevent a possible escape.

I commend you for taking in rescued birds and as you have found out they can make excellent pets, they just need some time and a lot of love.

Now we would like to see some pictures of your birds if you have some you would share with us.

BTW, what are your bird's names?

[DrTak]

There is a bird store here with a very good reputation, but the owner also loves to lecture in a condescending attitude. I realize I have much to learn, and never mind hearing another opinion, but I find the smarmy know it all style offensive.

 

I finally had to tell this woman, "look, I am not a child. I am a board certified physician who has raised three children. Talk to me like like the person who raised the children, not as if I was a child."

 

BTW, I suspect no one came out in favor of clipping because the sentiment here is overwhelming against it. I suspect if I wrote that I clipped my bird, I would get some condescending responses from people here.

[Luvparrots]

My grey is now flighted (she was cllipped when she came to live with me) and my re-homed ecelectus was clipped for at least 7 1/2 years before he came to live with me and I am still hopeful he will be able to fly again. My canary also has out-of-cage time in the AM and PM. I do believe our fids are much happier flighted BUT if I felt that anyone of my bird's well-being required that it be clipped I would. Never say never things change, I just hope I never have to clip my birds, it would break my heart as well as theirs.

[Jayd]

Thank You Janet and Judy and all you grey't people...Jayd

Edited July 24, 2010 by Jayd

[Jayd]

I suspect if I wrote that I clipped my bird, I would get some condescending responses from people here.

 

Sir, never "Suspect or Assume" Two good Ladies, Janet and Judy, gave opinions showing people on this forum have grey't compassion. We, Maggie and I would also "Clip" if there was no other way! And yes, some people would read you the riot act, depending on your reason for clipping, everyone here is a professional in there own way, at the minimum, a "PBL" [Pro Bird Lover!] It's grey't your a member of this forum...

Jayd, Maggie, Spock [Who's King] and the Flock!

Edited July 24, 2010 by Jayd

[DrTak]

Perhaps I was hasty in ass u me -ing. I have noticed a nice lack of flaming here.

[judygram]

Perhaps I was hasty in ass u me -ing. I have noticed a nice lack of flaming here.

 

So have I Dr Tak!

[Jayd]

Perhaps I was hasty in ass u me -ing. I have noticed a nice lack of flaming here.

:confused:To DrTak and Judy, If I've offended either of you, I did so unintentionally. My respect to you DrTak, was sincere, as It was to you Judy and Janet...The comment I made "PBF" was also sincere, the people here at this forum have grey't love for our companion birds, and each and every person here is equal. Once again, with no other meaning then what the words say, "Glad your Here". It's well known I'm not in the best standings with most of the other Mods here, but no matter how they feel about me, they'll always receive my highest respect. I hope this ends the problem my post has caused.

Sincerely

Jayd

Edited July 24, 2010 by Jayd

[Kevin]

Clipping or not clipping is a personal choice. Obviously, there are pros and cons to both, however, it has been my experience on this forum to receive insightful information and opinions without a condescending attitude attatched to them. I too, was unsure of which way to go regarding clipping. After careful and considerate thought, I decided against it. The information I received on this forum was extremely valuable and not once did I feel pressured to adhere to others thoughts and opinions on the matter. So, whatever you decide to do, I honestly believe you will not be made to feel as if you made the incorrect choice. This is a GREAT place with wonderful people who only want to help you to become the best parrot owner you can be. I have learned so much from this forum from kind, considerate, and knowledgeable individuals. I'm sure you will find the same.

 

Kevin

[Xtreme575]

My grey came to me clipped by the breeder (against my wishes). The breeder was excellent in that she has made herself available to me 24 hours a day every day by cell, but we fundamentally disagree on the clipping issue. Paco now has 3 primaries on one wing and three on the other. He is starting to make short flights and even landed on his cage from my shoulder across the room, and the landing was sooo graceful. I felt a well of emotion in being able to see this beauty after so long waiting for it. Anyway, my point being, I've quietly severed the relationship with my breeder. I'm not interested in being lectured, I purchased the bird, and as much as we like to pretend that the birds rule the roost, it is my decision to clip or not. I would not tolerate the store owner lecturing me, I'd go to another store, or shop from the internet.

 

Perhaps you could politely suggest that she move beyond her own stereotypes and misconceptions and try to see things from the birds perspective.

[Jayd]

Right on, We each have our own mind!!!Thank you Jayd

[Aly~]

Hmmmm.....My Grey tries to "clip" me on a daily basis!!! How is that fair??

[pearllyn]

Threads about clipping seem to always produce heated debates. I'm with most of the others members here on this and firmly believe in leaving birds flighted. My grey lost the power of her flight through chewing last year and it was simply heartbreaking to see how depressed she got when she realised she couldn't fly.

As for the rude lady in the pet shop, she wouldn't be getting any more of my money!!

Btw, welcome to the forum, and yes, we would love to hear more about your wonderful rescues!

[Keywe]

I got Keywe about 5 years ago when she was 3 months old, and she was already clipped. I bought her at a petstore, and if I had known what I know now, I would never have bought one, but rescued one in need. I LOVE animals and have NEVER been a bird lover simply because I believe that they should never be kept caged up. Well that all changed after my wife talked me into her and she chose me as her parront... I love her dearly, spoil her ROTTEN, and give her the best care that I can. I work out of the house 90% of the time and she is always out of her cage. When I first took her to the avian vet (we've been going there for over 30 years with cats and dogs) I asked the Dr. about clipping. They ALL strongly agree with clipping for their own protection. They "trim" the feathers about every 4 months so that she can "float" and not crash... They said that any responsible bird owner should do this because if some accident were to happen and they were to escape, they would most likely starve and suffer a slow death out in the environment. Keywe has never flown, so, does she know what she's missing? I'm sure there are instincts, but she is the most happy bird I've ever seen, and I know she's safe... I take her outside and for car rides, I built her a giant playhouse outside when it's not too hot (in FL) and those times she's outside you never know when something is going to spook her... a car backfiring, a plane flying too low...whatever... I'll never take that chance of her being able to fly and harm herself. We have a 17 month old daughter and one on the way, and know all about childproofing...we are extremely responsible adults, and I believe that clipping is being a responsible parront...to protect them from the "wild" that we make them live in...

[Jayd]

Thank you Keywe..you said you Vet was a Pet Vet. It's sad that people don't understand that a bird with clipped wings can indeed fly, especially one with a light clip. If a slight breeze occurs, the bird extends his wings and this creates lift, the next thing the bird does is flap, this creates more lift and forward motion, the next thing you know the bird is up in a tree, he's scared, this leaves a couple of possibility's, he jumps flaps and crashes to the ground, injuring himself, he jumps, catches wind and is blown away, or a predator spots him! Not all "Vets say clip". With a breeze a flat piece of paper fly's, a glider, doe's a better job of it.

Two of our rescues can't fly because they were clipped at pre-fledged! With all our birds flying around, to see the look in their eyes, yes they know what their missing. Please read their story: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?190309-A-note-on-Punishment-and-your-Parrot #26, #33, #36.....Thanks Jayd

[Dave007]

Well, as long as you feel that you have a happy bird who totally enjoys the lifestyle he's involved in, doesn't have major issues, is given as much freedom as is possible, can still fly but not verrtically, has in general a good personality. then you seem to have no worries. etc. Yes many are against clipping for very legitimate reasons and it's also many owners of loads of birds who are the ones who speak about the downside of clipping. It's not just a general consensus. That goes for here, on other boards, in Europe etc.

No one said you were irresponsible nor will anyone say it now. There's others here and other places that have clipped birds who haven't had any problems BUT there's many here and other places who have clipped birds and serious bad things are happening with those birds and it definitely points towards the bird being clipped.

One thing you should understand and it's got nothing to do with being responsible-------

 

""""""They said that any responsible bird owner should do this because if some accident were to happen and they were to escape, they would most likely starve and suffer a slow death out in the environment. """""

 

Actually, it's just the opposite. When a clipped bird is outside it can definitely fly and that's when accidents happen because the bird is clipped. It can only partially get away and be prone to the bad environment around it. A clipped bird can't fly downward from a branch in a tree. If it can't fly upward, a critter may get it. There's other reasons many people think and know that clipping is bad. So I agree with you. In your situation because you have an clipped bird, having to be very watchful is necessary.

 

Look at it from a different way---a person owns a cat, decides to have the cat declawed, the cat gets lost or takes off. Does that cat really have a good chance of survival outside??

 

Also know that people here and other places who own unclipped birds are extremely responsible owners. They also didn't notice anything in particular that was different about their clipped bird until the flight feathers came back. Then, a whole new aspect of the bird showed itself and people said that clipping was a thing of the past.

[tarm]

You know as many knowledgeable people there seems to be on this board unless it has already been done it may be a good idea to have a FYI sticky up about the actual true pros and cons of clipping versus flighted. This will empower people with good info when they are faced with people that aggressively oppose their position. It will go a long way to educating those uninformed as well.

 

Some things off the top of my head and what I recall from researching the subject:

 

What Nature has achieved and supplies is always the Gold Standard IMO.

 

Lets face it with clipping we are doing it solely for our own selfish reasons which is to make them easier ON US to keep. Please show me one person that thinks any normally flighted bird is not happiest and healthiest being flighted and not clipped.

 

Some of the negatives and dangers of clipping IMO:

 

Slower or repressed neurological development. ( Everything from physically to mental with less fear, more confident, to even talking and vocal expression) May also effect plucking and other negative behaviors

 

Lower level of physical health and condition. (No way they are getting 1/1000 of the physical exercise clipped comapred to in the wild or 1/10 being captive but still flighted)

 

When not clipped they are Psychologically more stable and happier. We all hear how birds hardily if ever bite in the wild. Why is that? They can fly away. Apply that to captivity. Even if the bird does not choose to but knowing it can fly if it wants to makes it more confident and less likely to bite as a primary defensive reaction. Likely a far lower general state of stress thru out its life.

 

Again take ever situation and think of NATURE as the Gold standard. We want them to have as close as reasonably possible everything they would have if wild in nature.

 

Clipping gives a false sense of security to the owner. Most people think clipped birds can not fly. That is simply not the case unless it is a severe clipping or lop sided which are dangerous and cruel IMO. The owner thinks "my bird is clipped it can not fly." Likely in a clam state the bird very well will appear to be with out flight. Now try spooking it. Or combine that with a breeze for tad bit of up lift. The issue is as has been stated: Once the bird under panic has flown it does not possess the ability to safely get back or possibly down. It basically is frozen where it landed with fear. I am willing to bet that more clipped birds have been lost to flying away in this country that non clipped.

 

Bird may be able under fear/spooking induced adrenaline rush to fly away but will likely once landed and calm not have the ability to consciously fly back if they wanted to.

 

Likely would greatly reduce plucking and other neurotic behavior. It has been proven to have the exact same effect is humans and most every warm blooded mammal. Vigorous exercise greatly reduces stress and its related neg behavior/conditions. Sorry its not going to get that standing on the cage door flapping its wings for a few minutes a day. No more comparatively than a person would pumping their arms standing versus doing real pushups.

 

As for some of the main reasons given to keep your birds wings clipped:

 

It will get into trouble when I am not watching and its out:

So sorry for the huge inconvenience of having to watch your bird when its out or bird proof the room or area it has access to. Comes down to a convenience for the human not the bird.

 

It will fly into things and hurt or kill itself:

Hmmmm well again that goes to taking the time and RESPONSIBILITY to make sure those hazards are minimized. Lets face it some how these birds are not running into trees and branches thru the forests. I think its safe to say the major hazards are moving objects and mirrors and clear glass of sufficient size. Given that you make sure the ceiling fans are turned off. Mirrors have objects placed on them so them can be seen. Same with windows if you happen to not have blinds or curtains. Again comes down to a convenience for the human not the bird.

If there is an open door or window it can fly out and be gone. This is really the main and IMO only legitimate reason the "clipped camp" has. But also do not forget it will also be able to fly back. A clipped bird very well may still be able to also fly out and away and owner will be far less careful with a clipped bird. But it will not be able to fly back as a flighted bird can. When a flighted bird gets cold hungry thirsty if will at least have the ability to come back which if it has had a great home likely will want to.

When you look at all what the bird loses and has lost not only from having its main means of movement taken away but also being in captivity as a whole the few extra things we as their guardians have to do in taking some extra time and precautions so they can have their flight is minuscule in comparison and the least we can do.

 

But having flighted bird does take responsibility. I think most all of the things are very easy to ensure it has a safe environment in the home. The area I think it really takes time and work is acting proactively to do what you can in the case of the bird getting out. The answer to this IMO would be practicing recall work with your bird as often as possible. If you can get your bird to allow a aviator harness even more realistic out door training can take place. Not to mention the bird will then also be use to being outdoor and coming back to you in that environment. Even if it takes years to finally get your bird to allow you to use the harness in that time you can be practicing indoors. Then of course doing any and all other things possible to get it back if it does get out.

 

 

What it really comes down to is the dedication of the person that has these birds. Look at all the rehomed or given up birds and many of the conditions they lived in. I think its safe to say if may of the people that owned these birds had flighted birds many of these woudl have died slow or terrible deaths. Not that it would have been much worse given how some poor birds are kept. But it is still a fact that the people on this forum and others are usually very dedicated bird owners. I have a feeling we do not represent the typical bird owners unfortunately or at least there is a very large group that are not like us. The issue for these is if they were flighted they likely would never get out of their cages at all or would have likely been injured or died in the home or flown away and faced that possible death.

 

Consider that the above one possible way to look at it is if the above is what the Pet store owners are use to dealing with and where they profit and sales comes from. They want these birds to be the easiest fro their human owners to keep. This opposed to carefully screening each and every buyer and only allowing them to go to what they think with be responsible homes. They want /need the sales so they concentrate on making these birds as easy as possible for people to own and take care of. Now maybe they do not think about this at all and they are only looking at the negatives and to hell with any of the positives for the bird. I again think this is looking thru what is best ( read as "what is most convenient") for the human and not the bird. They may not realize that this what they are doing or how their perspective is but it is.

 

If every owner of birds was as dedicated as they should be or like those on this forum there would be far less birds owned, that is for sure. There would also likely be no need for controls on wild birds taken for the pet trade as it would only be a very small business comparatively. The issue is people purchasing these animals becasue of ignorance, ego, vanity.

 

I am far from an expert in the avain field or specifically on greys. Maybe some of the knowledgeable members here could make a nice detailed Post/Chart on the subject.