harmar Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Sorry this is a repost. I posted other thread in wrong section, so if mod wants to delete the one in other forum section please do. Anyways, If you saw some of my other threads, you will know I am looking at getting an African Grey, and that the local breeder clips all birds. He does have some younger ones that haven't been clipped yet, and is my decision if I want it clipped or not, but if I dont I need to let him know ASAP. He says he HIGHLY encourges everyone to get it clipped. I know this is a huge debate and personal preference. He said that sure a few people will have success with a non clipped bird, but he could line up customers 50 feet long who got a bird fully fleighted, and came back within a year and a half wanting to get it clipper, or having a horror story about the bird getting killed or mutilated. He said he had a few customers where the bird was standing on top of a door and owner didnt realize it, they shut the door and chopped the birds feet off. He has had some that landed on a hot stove, some that fly out the door as soon as it is opened. He had one where the person was a huge advocate of flighted birds and went on and on how clipping them is taking away natural ability, is incredibly mean, your typical arguments. A year and a half later she came in and got it clipped because it was causing too much trouble. He said they aren't outdoors, they don't need to fly, nor have the required space to. There are too many dangers (windows, walls, ceiling fans, stoves, open doors, etc) that can severely injure if not kill a bird. I talked to a few customers in the store, even 2 that have an African Grey, they said they would never get one that wasn't clipped and can't imagine having one that was fully flighted. These are people that have multiple birds. He said there are local bird meetings, and if you stood up and said fully flighted birds are better, you would get booed by the other members. He has a very convincing argument. Wonder what other people thoughts are. This is a guy who sells hundreds of birds a year.. a couple dozens of them are greys. So he must know sort of what he is talking about. Just wondering what others thoughts are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 I could have moved your post in the other room. Next just PM and I'll do so. :-) I have just a simple thing to say regarding all the reasons you were given for people not having a flighted bird. They were all common sense items listed that the owners clearly displayed negligence in not paying attention. You need to know where your bird is at all times, whether flighted or not. If you do, accidents like you described rarely if ever happen. Birds were meant to fly, not walk. They have superior health to non flighted birds and if in a dangerous situation can rapidly fly out of the way to safety. A clipped bird can not. "Clipped" birds also fly away to the horror of the owners when spooked. It is a false sense of security for the owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raleej337 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 this is a very hot topic. from what i've heard (read too), most hobbyist favor the unclipped wing but most breeders i know favor clipping the birds wings. well i've got mine clipped and the breeder explained to me his reason on clipping the birds wings. both sides i believe have their points (good and bad). well i know some avian vets that highly reccommend wing clippings. my cockatiels have their wings clipped but my canary is flighted (well canaries need to fly very often and hop). at the moment im in between, once my greys wings grows ill try not to have it clipped but if after that i see more dangers rthen i might have his wings clipped again. but for sure i wanted to see him with his full wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave007 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 harmar I can give you many reasons why a bird shouldn't be clipped. First, I wanna say that in your post you've put 2 or 3 subjects together which actually deserve their own thread. Dan mentions a few of the most important things concerning clipping and not clipping birds. I'll say that all of the things you say can happen to unclipped bird as well as a clipped bird. This is one extremely important things that Dan has said """"They were all common sense items listed that the owners clearly displayed negligence in not paying attention. You need to know where your bird is at all times, whether flighted or not. If you do, accidents like you described rarely if ever happen.""""" What you haven't talked about is strength, the natural ability to do what birds were meant to do, coordination, the body's ability to withstand accidents and another very important thing which is mentality and the fact that we are talking about Congo African Greys and Timneh Afrian Greys, not any other species. This board is focused on those 2 types of birds. Our main focus has to do with stregth, personality, independence, aloofness and total development of these 2 types of birds only. Many of these things get affected by clipping. Maybe you can't understand that. A person shouldn't have an animal that needs to be altered in order to own it. There are other animals. People will say * I wanna a cat* In the next breath, those people are told that the cat should be declawed because less damage will occur in the house. That';s what is commonly called cruelty to animals. It seems like the people you've talked to about buying a very young bird forgot to tell you about the tragic things that happen to clipped birds. It seems that no one has told you what the necessities the bird must develop in order to be classified as a bird. You talk about vets who recommend this --you talk about breeders who have lines 50 ft long with people who need their birds clipped. You talk about the headache it was for these people to put up with unclipped birds. Well, right now, I will tell you that I breed greys and also own pet greys. When people come to me to buy a bird, I spend many hours talking to them about what type of creature they're gonna take home. I encourage them to not buy a parrot if it comes down to that.. I tell them what the bird needs in order for proper development. I tell them that the grey's abilility to become independent and aloof is ultra important because that's a grey's personality. I tell them that their baby bird won't stay a baby for long and their dependancy on the owners won't last very very long. I even give them a print out in case they forget about parts of our conversations. Many people never bother to learn about these things and even worse, many sellers don't mention these things to customers. You speak of vets and their opinions. I need to deal with 3 different avian vets all of which clip wngs and those same vets give me pats on the back for explaining the pitfalls of clipping. Clipping isn't illegal so they must do it. Declawing isn't illegal so regular vets must do it. But because I'm so very, very, very, very, very, very tired of talking about this subject and you wanna know the different opinions of people concerning this subject, I suggest that you go to the upper right hand corner of this page and look for the words SEARCH FORUM and type in WING CLIPPING or just CLIPPING and press enter You'llget so many answers to your questions that I guarantee you that you won't be able to finish reading them all.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/10/09 01:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Thank you for talking about this subject Dave!! I always enjoy reading your no nonsense extremely educated and experience based responses. I still wish you would write a book. I believe it would out sell any other Grey book in print!!! I would be the first in line to purchase it. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JillyBeanz Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 danmcq wrote: Thank you for talking about this subject Dave!! I still wish you would write a book. I believe it would out sell any other Grey book in print!!! SSSH! We are lucky - we get Dave's fantastic advice for free!! Stop trying to make him write a book!! Joking asides - I'd buy it, I treat Dave's posts with the utmost respect and would never question anything he told me to do (well, within reason!) <br><br>Post edited by: JillyBeanz, at: 2009/10/09 08:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane08 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Well said Dave totally agree. We have 2 unclipped greys and they have never ever been a problem. If you have seen the enjoyment a grey gets out of flying you would never ever even think of clipping their wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Hear, hear about the book Dr. Flock!!! I always read Dave's posts, he is a man of many faces and many moods because he is so passionate about our greys, honestly all feathered creatures. However, I do question his sense of humor... sometimes!!!! :blink: :ohmy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistyparrot Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I agree totally with Dave. I wish all breeders cared as much about their young parrots welfare. Perhaps some might accuse us of anthropomorphising our Greys and perhaps we do but what is so remarkable about our charges is how well they can adapt to living with humans if we respect them as parrots. Cutting their flights denies them that which is fundamental to their nature and shows a lack of respect that is due to them. I would say that except in very special cases if you can't provide a safe home for a flighted bird perhaps you should seek a companion that does not have a fundamental need to fly. Steve n Misty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhorje Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 In that case they should get a Kakapo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luvparrots Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Ahhh the Kakapo, the only flightless and nocturnal parrot, the heaviest in the world, weighing up to 8 lbs. Native to New Zealand. Very cute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhorje Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Should get one of those. You don't have to worry they will fly away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayd Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 A lot of good comments here, Two Gentlemen Dan and Dave have given you psychological, spiritual, practical and personal reasons not to clip, they would not lie to you. They are both knowledgeable and well respected. Choosing any one reason, is a good choice. Let me give you examples of clipping and possible consequences, if not at least giving them a year of flight. We work mostly with babies to fledglings and injured birds. Mostly all our birds are handicapped or we hand raised them. Joey (previously known as Jim) He was deeply mentally abused, At two years old he was withdrawn, couldn't fly and a basket case. His wings were butchered when clipped, after 2 plus months ,working with him, giving him wing exercises, it has built his confidence and he has become quite sociable, he still can't fly yet, but his attitude and expression while holding on and flapping reflects sheer joy... Spock, read any of our posts to get his enjoyment of flying.. Salsa, never allowed to fly, it's sad, He flops to the ground, he can't land safely And she bleeps to get you to show her around. It's going to be hard to teach her how to fly when her flight feather grow in, I'm not a bird, but she loves her wing exercise. Fred, our new SC-TOO, (NOT GREY) has been abused for 17 years. There are very few feathers on his wings, just bone and skin, he's never flown, he weighs half what he should and he'll never fly, he lifts his wings to have them rubbed. (Tears..) Listen to these men...at least give your baby a year with wings. He will thank you. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovethatgrey Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Clipping is really a personal decision and only YOU are aware of your own personal reality as well as your limitations. It's good to read alot of the opinions and thoughts out there in order to make an informed decision. My parrots were clipped before I brought them home. I didn't have any choice in the matter and just put up with it because I knew it wasn't a permanent situation. Today neither of my parrots are clipped and they both fly very well and seem to enjoy it immensely. Personally, I'd like to NOT ever clip them if possible but I really don't know what the future holds. Perhaps one day I will feel that it is necessary. If you do decide not to clip.. you must always be on the alert and supervise your parrots when they are out of their cages. It is work and responsibility but the benefits are great for your parrots and for you. I can tell you what I appreciate about having parrots who can fly. I like that they are able to exercise their magnificent cardiovascular systems and chest muscles each and every day. I like that both of them can fly over to me when they are frightened. I like the fact that they can fly AWAY from one another when they feel bothered. Most of all I like the fact that they no longer crash into things because they are not able to fly. This is a big relief because I was often scared that they would injure themselves. On a side note but relevant to what Dave posted t... I had wanted an african grey not only because I was attracted to their intelligence but among that I also WANTED a parrot who was aloof. Emma is very far from aloof.. and not quite what I thought I was signing up for. Any thoughts about that? Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/10/10 01:33<br><br>Post edited by: lovethatgrey, at: 2009/10/10 02:01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmar Posted October 10, 2009 Author Share Posted October 10, 2009 i appreciate everyones replies very much! One question, you guys mentioned supervised.. what exactly do you mean by that? My plan was to take bird out of cage when get home from work, and then put him back in when it is bed time. However, I would always be in same room as it, with doors closed. But my eye might not be on it 100% of time. Is that good enough for supervised? Not like I would take him out of cage then leave the room for 2 hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janfromboone Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 I can't wait until Tobie can fly because he has injured himself several times crashing - so I'm underlining Lovethatgreys statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittykittykitty Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Three cheers for Dave!!! Hip,hip,hurrayayayay!!! :cheer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JillyBeanz Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 harmar wrote: One question, you guys mentioned supervised.. what exactly do you mean by that? Exactly how you describe you are going to supervise is supervised! :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Although I'm sorry that Dave is tired of talking about this subject, I love to talk about it. Instead of telling you my experiences, I would suggest that before you make a decision, you check out this article from Hartman Aviary http://theparrotuniversity.com/flight.php It really goes into the genetic make up of all parrots and how flying is a fundamental part of a bird. It is, in my humble opinion, a scientific powerhouse punch to the necessity of allowing our birds flight. I realize it is an individual decision and I respect that, I certainly wouldn't want someone telling me what to do, but before making a choice, know what you are deciding. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now