Pi_1

We've pretty much eliminated everything we can......there is no rhyme or reason to the wheezing, although she seems to wake up with it more often at night. We don't have any heating ducts, so that can't be the issue. We've lived in the same place with the same furniture since she was little. We eliminated everything but pellets from her diet, give her bottled water, changed rooms, took all her toys away, etc......nothing. I'm really beginning to think it isn't an allergy at all and is perhaps a fungal infection. The antibiotics haven't worked and even though her cage is kept spotless and she's never been in contact with another bird, I don't see what else could be cauing this. I think we've eliminated all reasonable possible sources. We even paid to have the place tested for radon. And since the bronchodilators do absolutely nothing for her.....well.....I'm thinking the vet must be misdiagnosing this. I'm going to go down there and talk with them again tomorrow. This is just getting worse and I think their attitude of wait, wait, wait, and only treating the symptoms is ridiculous. She's going to end up dying because we sat around waiting so long with no treatment......... I'd like to bring her to another vet but that would mean waiting even longer to get any treatment.......

Well, we used to use "Yesterday's News", but lately have not been lining it with anything and have been cleaning it every couple of days (with water).

Anyone here have any experience with Aspergillosis fungal infections, by the way? If so, do Betsy's symptoms sound like they could be caused by a fungal infection? Our vet says it cannot be reliably tested for, but I'm starting to get concerned this is not just an allergy problem.......

Yes, I have considered that often.......the problem being the current vet is already 2 hours away and going to another would mean a lot of hours in the car - I'd have to drive down to Detroit.......and the vet there has a couple week waiting list to get new birds in - then we're looking at 2 weeks to get new tests done - so by the time they would do anything it would be another month, and with the situation getting worse I worry we don't have the luxury of that much time. I also just don't know if the stress of a 6 hour car ride plus the time spent at the vet is worth any potential benefit. When we leave the current vet I'm always extremely worried. The stress makes her far worse and I was concerned she was going to stop breathing it was so bad yesterday. Not to mention the other vet said they would want to do all the tests again, so we'd need new x-rays, new blood work, etc - which would mean anesthetizing her.......not something I'd really like to do for obvious reasons. I don't know how to proceed - I'm frustrated and worried. Just an update, I took her to the vet AGAIN yesterday and asked that she get a steroid injection. After the steroid, she was fine and back to her old self for around 24 hours - playing, drinking and eating like CRAZY, sleeping (since she hasn't been getting much if any sleep due to the breathing issues), then the wheezing started again. The current vet won't prescribe a steroid for regular use, but I talked her into prescribing a different bronchodilator and an anithistamine. We'll see how this works. The main problem is that the vet doesn't seem concerned at all and is happy to wait weeks upon weeks with no treatment while Betsy gets worse. I think the situation is far more urgent than that, especially if it isn't just an allergic reaction.

So we've taken her to the vet twice since I last posted but it is just an exercise in futility. All they do is give her a shot of a steroid and the same aminophyllin we give her at home and send us on our not-so-merry way. Betsy has been worse the last couple of days and I'm worried. The vet thinks she is allergic to something and just says to keep treating her with the aminophyllin, although I don't see what else it could possibly be, and the medication does absolutely nothing for her wheezing. I asked for Albuterol instead but they wouldn't give it to me. We even moved her to the other side of the house - to our bedroom - and no difference. It is frustrating because the vet only treats the symptoms and not the overall problem. And they want us to bring her in constantly, which just leads to more stress - and then they do absolutely NOTHING but weigh her, listen to her chest, and tell us the exact same thing as the previous 5 times we brought her in. They said we could start giving her harsh anti-fungals in case it is a fungal infection, but that they don't think that is the case and it could kill her. They said we could do further blood tests, but that they would have to send them out to be done, and it would take up to a month to get back. Not only that, the tests are $1800 and need to be paid up front......and they only test for 3 rare things - Radon exposure, Chlamydia, and some other nonsense.....they don't even test for a fungal infection........ I started her on an antibiotic myself since they don't seem to be willing to do anything......but no change. Any ideas? These vets are just worthless........

Oh, and the nebulizer treatment made it MUCH worse......we tried it with a hot shower and the vet tried it with their machine and it just worsened her issues......

Thanks for the response. I should have elaborated more I guess but was in a hurry earlier - I apologize. It is not an infection. It also isn't a problem with the nasal passages or sinuses. The problem lies fairly far down her esophagus - but not in her lungs. The vet says that there is no damage to the area, but that an allergy to something is causing it to become inflamed and constricted. We've had her to the vet multiple times for this now, and they just want us to keep giving her the current medication. They have told us nothing further can be done, and just to try and figure out what is causing the allergic reaction. They doubt it is her own dander - I suggested that last time we were there......and when we cleaned her cage and gave her a bath I think she would have improved at least for a short time if it were the dander. So really there is nothing more to be done or to discuss at the vet - they won't prescribe any other medication and just want us to keep treating her with the current stuff and to bring her in for an injection if it gets REALLY bad. I'm not willing to just keep medicating her for life, however, if it isn't necessary. That's why I've come here....to inquire about allergies. I was hoping perhaps I missed something that could be causing this reaction and that someone would have some suggestions..... And regarding the vet, this current one isn't so bad and has an avian vet there......the only bad thing is that it is over 2 hours away. The bad one I was speaking of was the emergency vet near us that saw her during the initial emergency. Money isn't an object for us (within reason). It was just that during an emergency on a Saturday night who the heck has over $2000 liquid cash available to give an emergency vet (they only accept cash)? It was ridiculous......especially since we had just paid them in excess of $1500 the night before! So no, we're not worried about spending money on her....I just mentioned it because that emergency vet kicked us out on the street with no treatment when we didn't have enough cash available at 2AM on a Saturday night. They wouldn't treat her at ALL unless we paid for the entire $2000+ "treatment plan" - and that was just to treat her from 2AM until 6AM!

Hi all, not sure if you'll remember or not, but a few months ago I came here for advice when our Grey (Betsy) almost died due to trouble breathing. We had a very bad experience with the emergency vet, and me, being a med student, ended up probably saving her life by giving her an IV at home since the emergency vet kicked us out and refused to treat her if we didn't pay them thousands up front (after already paying them over $1500 the previous night). Anyhow, she survived and seemed to go back to normal. Well at the time we thought it was a bad reaction from my fiance using a (supposedly safe) carpet cleaner. Obviously we discontinued using it (not that we used it often anyway). About a month later, however, she had another attack with no provocation. I was away on business, so my fiance brought her to a vet and she was given a medication called "aminophyllin". We were instructed to give it to her twice a day at a dose of 20 Mg. While at the vet they also gave her albuterol, which made her vomit over and over but seemed to clear up the breathing issue. The first time she experienced it, nothing - not even a steroid, seemed to help. So we got her home and she seemed fine for a couple of weeks, but then the wheezing started to show up again. Not bad, but you could hear it on and off. She'd be fine for a couple of days, then it would pop up again. So we kept giving her the medication, but it hasn't seemed to do anything at all. It has gotten to the point now where she wheezes every day. It comes and goes in an instant. She'll be fine one second, then wheezing badly the next, then 20 minutes later it will stop in an instant. Then she'll be fine and playing and running around for hours.....and all of a sudden she'll wake up in the middle of the night wheezing again. It seems to make no difference whether she has taken the medication or not. So we asked the vet again and were told she must be allergic to something, but that it is impossible to test a bird for allergies, so just try to minimize contact with allergens and keep giving her the medication. But I want to find out what this is and not have to medicate her twice a day for the rest of her life. I also worry one day when I'm not home it will get really bad again and she'll die. The vet doesn't seem too concerned and just tell me to bring her in if she gets bad, but that seems to make her even worse from the stress. So I decided to try and figure out what was causing it. We stopped using ALL cleaning products, we cleaned her cage thoroughly outside with water, we cleaned all surfaces with water that had been previously cleaned with cleaners. We stopped cooking at home completely (concerned about the oven). We opened the windows to clear the air out (and when that didn't work, we also tried keeping them closed and an air filter on). We stopped wearing deodorant and perfumes. We stopped feeding her everything but sunflower seeds and pellets (for fear of a food allergy - especially to the nuts). We gave her a bath even though she HATES them. We've done EVERYTHING we can think of, but nothing has helped. Luckily it hasn't gotten too bad recently (in relation to the first time), but she obviously has great difficulty breathing during the worst episodes. And again, the vet says there is nothing we can do. And considering the vet is over 2 hours away it just isn't reasonable to expect us to bring her in every time this happens, especially when they aren't even doing anything..... The only think left I can think of is that we have some sort of mold or something in the house - but it was just completely remodeled a couple of years ago and we keep it SPOTLESS, so it just doesn't seem plausible to me. Not to mention she was fine for the first 8 months or so we lived here. Does anyone have ANY ideas? I'm getting REALLY concerned here..... By the way, if you'd like to read over the initial incident, the post is here: http://www.greyforums.net/forums/showthread.php?193564-Advice-Help-With-Wheezing-Grey/page7

I taught our Grey a substitute noise for the "come back" screech. When she would do it I would tell her to "cheep cheep" (obviously you can pick any words or sound you want). I would tell her a few times when she would screech, then ignore the screeches but come immediately when she "cheeped". She now "cheeps" when she wants me to come over (or just asks me in words) and rarely screeches. Worked well for us........

First, a vet visit will let you know if anything is physically wrong. Next, if the vet gives her a clean bill of health, try getting some new toys for her to play with. Easy things for her to destroy - like popsicle stick toys and things like that. Maybe a toilet paper roll......or take the subscription cards from magazines, fold them up (one way, then the other, like an accordion), and put a hole in the center - then slide a bunch of them down one of the wires from an old toy and hang them in her cage. This will give her something to concentrate on when you're not around. I take it you haven't moved.......moved her cage.....had someone new move in, etc? If nothing has changed and the vet says she is ok, she is probably bored/frustrated. Is her cage in your main living area? It should be so she can be around you. Try spending more time with her if your time together has been limited. Also, you could try leaving a radio or TV on for her while you're gone at a low volume so she has something to occupy her.......

Those are horrendous weight loss tips anyway, LoL.......

Thanks! It's hard to get a good photo of her in the cage since she's always playing on her swing, LoL! She LOVES that thing. She actually wears them out so much we have to replace them every couple months!

Here are some photos from today.....

How old? When our Grey was a baby and we first brought her home she would only go to sleep if I let her tuck her little head under my chin, LoL. Bond with her now and spend a lot of time with her when she's little and you'll have a friend for life!

I agree with the above post other than the part about not touching under the wings and/or the upper breast area. As far as the wings, I taught our Grey to "give me your wing". She'll hold one wing out, then the other and let me hold it and examine it and the underlying area. She has never gotten stimulated by it (I guess it may depend on the bird) and it was very helpful in saving her life the other day when I had to give her an IV to get fluids in her. I originally taught it to her to make things easier for me and the vet to get a look at her. As far as the upper breast area, I guess it depends how low you're talking about, but I often pet our Grey at the area where her neck meets the upper breast and she has never become sexually excited by it. I also play with her by telling her "gonna get you" or "gimme that drumstick" and grab her legs, LoL. She then knows it's time to play and tries to fend off my fingers in a playful manner. I guess it can depend on the situation though. I'd never continue if she started to become stimulated by it. As far as the grabbing goes, our Grey does that one foot grab when she wants me to flip her upside down. She absolutely LOVES to be flipped on her back. She will hold out the one foot when on my shoulder, wait for me to give her a finger, then flip and slide down my chest on her back like a slide. She also likes to be carried around upside down like a bat. She prefers being carried like that than sitting on my shoulder, and is far less jumpy. I'll carry her around the house like that and she loves it. I also swing her around like she's flying upside down and she has a great time. Not sure if this is common with other Greys but it's one of our favorite activities. As far as the "chewing" goes, our Grey did this when she was a baby and she wanted me to feed her. She still does it at 2.5 years old, but now she does it as an affectionate thing. She gets my finger in the back of her beak and kinda chews on it softly, making little "hoo" noises. Your Grey is probably either loving on you or asking for food depending on the age. As mentioned above, the crouching and regurgitating is sexual behavior and should not be encouraged. Our Grey used to do the regurgitating thing (not the crouching) when she was younger and I would just distract her and she would stop. She very rarely does it anymore. They will often hack up a whole nut or seed when doing this to "share" with you, LoL.

But babies are the way to go in my opinion - especially for a new owner. Adopting older Greys is a wonderful thing to do, but they bring along baggage you may not be prepared to deal with if you're a new owner......

I agree - especially if you've never owned parrots before. One will be a handful - two should be for experienced owners only. The amount of time needed to spend with just one is a BIG commitment - and one that you'll be taking on for a great many years. I would think about whether you'll have the 3+ hours a day to interact with a Grey, and whether you're willing to sacrifice things like vacations that may be impossible with a Grey in the house. If you decide it is something you want, I would get one to start.

Splashing = getting under her wings and her feet wet, then getting her beak wet and preening with it basically. Not really a bath but she gets a bit damp. Just wanted to let you know Betsy is doing great today and back to her old self. Had her out to play a few times today and she's so happy and affectionate, LoL. She seems back to normal and the only lingering thing is that her little leg seems a bit sore still from the several IM injections they gave her. She also broke the flight feathers off one of her wings somewhere along the way, probably when they were giving her X-Rays. She doesn't seem bothered, though, and she can't fly anyway, so......

It happens to our Grey when she gets worked up from playing and sometimes when she sits in the sun. It's funny, too......when she plays her feet get incredibly warm. Usually they're fairly cool but they're like little microwaves when she gets excited, LoL........

Our Grey likes to nibble at ears - but very softly in an affectionate way. Does yours bite hands or anything other than just the wife's ears? Yours? If your Grey bites at other times, it needs to be taught biting will not be tolerated. If it is ONLY your wife's ears, perhaps something is enticing your Grey. Does she wear earrings? Can she cover her ears with her hair? Perhaps give your Grey something like a pop bottle cap to play with instead of the ears? Is the Grey really biting hard or is it just startling to your wife? The Grey COULD just be being affectionate and playing and your wife could be misinterpreting it..... As far as kids go, I haven't found anything that will get a Grey to like someone - they either do or don't. My Grey hated my fiance for the longest. I started having my fiance feed and water her, as well as deliver all the treats. It took awhile, but she is now able to pet and they have a very good relationship, although our Grey will still fend off any attempts by the fiance to pet her outside the cage. She loves pets from my fiance inside the cage, however, and loves going to see my fiance when out. Greys have their strange little ways and the only thing I can advise would be to keep the children from playing around the cage so as to not scare your Grey, and have them feed, water, and bring treats while slowly approaching the cage and chatting with your Grey softly.

As far as the nips go........our Grey does this thing quite often where she grabs one of my fingers and gets it in the back of her beak, then "chews" on it. Not hard - she never bites, but she will do this for a couple minutes in between making affectionate "hoo" noises. It IS kind of like she's pulling on my finger. I let her do it. She does it when she is really happy. If trained well your Grey should know very well the difference between play bites and biting too hard. I play with our Grey often and she is very gentle even when "nipping". I wouldn't discourage it unless it hurts. It's probably just an affectionate thing. They do need to be taught what is too hard, however, so if he hasn't already be sure to let him know he is naughty (in a firm voice - not yelling) if he bites hard. We used to tell Betsy she was naughty, not to bite, and put her back in her cage immediately if she did. She didn't want to go back, of course, so she learned very quick not to bite. She also knows the word "careful", so if she's getting a little rough I tell her to be careful and she immediately eases up. Some people will say that Greys can't be taught certain things and just let them get away with murder. I couldn't disagree more. They are VERY smart and will understand anything you teach them as long as you're consistent. Use rewards of treats or affection when they're good, and let them know it when they're not. Obviously don't hit or yell at them, but putting them in their cage or ceasing to interact with them if they do something unacceptable will teach them boundaries. Many of these problems may be due to the change in home and/or the condition of your father, so I wouldn't worry too much. Be understanding and loving but also let your Grey know what he can get away with and what you won't tolerate - especially where biting is concerned. After reading your post again I see that you said your father is AFRAID of the Grey? If he has had him a long time I find this curious. He should have been taught long ago that biting would not be tolerated. This is no doubt a big reason the bird is doing these things - trying to get attention. I understand he is sick but perhaps he can put his fear aside and at least spend more time with your Grey lounging around? I'm sure some of the problems would improve if he (and you perhaps) gave your Grey the level of attention he had previously been used to......

First of all I'd advise keeping closer supervision of a flighted bird. They should not be allowed to fly off and destroy household items. Not only is it potentially dangerous for them but it also creates very bad habits. No offense - I'm sure you're great at caring for him, but I'd advise keeping an eye on him at all times when he is out and about. There are many things around a house that could injure or kill a Grey. As far as the noises - our Grey does specific noises for certain people too. She does a popping noise to call for my fiance. This is the only time she does it, and I have no idea how she learned it or associated it with my fiance, but she does it all the time. My fiance answers her with it now, LoL. If she does it and my fiance doesn't answer back (sleeping or away) she knows the fiance is not around. She also does it when my fiance is at a distance to make sure it is her, LoL. With me, she makes a "hoo" noise to show affection. With my fiance, she does a very different "goo" noise, LoL. Not sure where these come from either. Anyway, my point is that they associate noises with people and that may just be her "call" for you. In addition, they have certain noises they do for certain occasions. Our Betsy makes a shrill "chir-chirp" sound when she wants something. The noise you described sounds a bit like that - he might be asking you for something. As far as the screeching goes, that may be caused by a number of things. Is your father giving him as much attention as he used to? Your Grey may be screeching because he feels left out or neglected. Our Grey screeches in the AM when we get up because she is excited, which I allow - but other than that she only screeches when she wants our attention. She knows what "hush your beak" and "be quiet" mean, though, and usually listens when we ask her to stop. We also used a substitution sound for screeching. Whe she would screech we would tell her to be quiet, then would tell her to do another sound. In our case we taught her to "cheep cheep". If she screeched we would tell her to be quiet and "cheep cheep" if you want something. We would then ignore any further screeches and reward her with attention when she did the desired sound. She quickly caught on that louder was not better at getting our attention. You might try something like this...... Anyway, hope this helps. As far as knowing your father is ill, I'm sure he does. They're amazingly smart creatures (one of the smartest on Earth). I'm sure he notices that something is wrong at least. Again, has your father been spending less time with him? If so this is probably the root of many of the issues you're talking about.......

In my experience once they start plucking it is hard to get them to stop. I'd give her lots of toys (not like blocks and things, but stuff like popsicle sticks that are easily destroyed) to keep her attention on something else. As far as keeping away from her.......how does she react to you? Is she excited to see you and come out of the cage or does she prefer to be alone at this point? If she's excited to come out and see you I'd advise spending MORE time with her. Plucking can start from stress, sickness...but also boredom. If she's apprehensive I'd take things at her pace. Don't force her to do anything but visit her often and chat with her and pet her through the cage if she tolerates it. Does she have a swing, by the way? Our Grey loves her swing and spends most of her time on it. If not you might consider it to give her another activity while in the cage other than plucking. Is she in a high traffic area? Greys should be in the living area of the house so they can be involved and kept busy in daily activities, but if she's near a doorway where people walk past a lot it might be stressing her. The nervousness itself is to be expected. She's in a new home with new people. Who knows how the previous owner took care of her, also. It will take time but I'm sure she'll come around and grow to enjoy your company. The plucking on the other hand may continue, but as the last couple posts have outlined, there ARE ways to try and stop or minimize it. As far as using the bathroom more when out - that's normal in my experience and doesn't mean anything other than she is more active. You can potty train Greys quite easily, so when she's more comfortable with you perhaps start doing that to give you guys a way to interact in a positive way. Our Grey tells me when she needs to go to the bathroom and knows to only go in her cage or on a mat we keep out for her.

If you can't tell I'm SO incredibly thankful she is ok........

Oh, and during football season she watches games with me and if someone breaks a long play she yells "Go, go, go, go!" along with me. My fiance thought it was SO funny when she started doing that......