Spinner

Every behaviour we might find in the wild is found in our homes with our greys. The context might be different, but the results are mostly identical. I'm a bit concerned that the word punishment appears in the original post, because in the wild, punishment simply doesn't happen. Unfortunately, that's a human behaviour (I'm sooo proud that I'm part of a species that has that possibility of behavour).

The original post said

It is always said that bird do not understand any kind of punishment.

from what i see, punishment is something like telling the bird that if he do[es] something, he will get something bad happen to them.[/Quote]Don't confuse punishment to consequences of dangerous behaviour. My birds know that there are consequences to biting me, just as I know there are consequences for me to do something that might lead to a bite. No punishment is involved. For my poor choice of action, I may get admonished by my grey with a nice bite. When deserved, I might admonish my grey with a simple "no!" I'm pretty confident that both my grey and I understand the "consequences" of what we do.

 

From the wild behaviour, they understand "cause and effect " concept. but why it doesnt apply at our house?[/Quote]It does apply. Most certainly. If my grey happens to do something dangerous like chewing on a lamp cord it might get a nasty shock. If it survives, does that mean natural selection will yield "non-lamp cord eating" greys ? Not likely. It does mean my grey indeed understands cause and effect (or consequences) and will likely stay away from lamp cords. No one exerted punishment in this case. There is a clear understanding by my bird that chewing on lamp cords might lead to pain. They DO undertand.

 

Lino, thanks for asking your question.

How terribly sad.

Malikah,

So sorry to hear the diagnosis. However, with this diagnosis you know what is going on and get effective treatment like you are doing now. I presume this is Kito?

Continue daily cleaning, sanitizing and drying. Don't let things dry on their own - do a towel or blower drying. Also, be sure to regularly use hand sanitizer and wear a mask while cleaning.

Here's some grey healing energy from my grey family coming your way!!

I only recommend Barbara Heidenreich's workshops and training DVD's. You may find her videos at http://www.goodbirdinc.com

She is very well respected in the animal training community and works closely with behaviour experts around the country. Using her techniques, I've trained my greys to roll over on the back and hold up their feet for their nail trims. I've even used it to train one of my male breeders (who is very very snarky) to let me gently towel him for his monthly beak trimming (he has scissor-beak). All my greys know me as the treat machine and enjoy sharing success with me.

For additional reading, check out the following:

Sid Price's bird training blog

http://avianambassadors.com/BirdTraining/

and

Dr Susan Friedman's bird learning and behaviour material

http://www.behaviorworks.org/

Please, please, stay away from birdtricks. Their methods spend way too much time on negative reinforcement and wearing down the bird towards complying with commands. With other, better, resources out there, they aren't worth bothering with and may actually create larger problems with your birds.

Jaqui,

I would strongly recommend taking your bird to an avian vet and have them draw blood for you. You can then apply that to your test card, or have your vet run it. Please do not pull a feather as this is painful to your grey and could cause larger problems.

Even for the babies that I raise, I draw blood rather than risk having them bleed out or be damaged in some way.

Greys are known to have tears with trace blood in them. Typically happens only while restraining for a grooming or vet procedure, or during exceptionally rough play time (as Dave mentioned). It should clear itself quickly. If not, schedule a vet visit.

If you're describing more of a wound, then keep it clean for a healthy heal.

Velcro Bird = Always attached or stuck to its human. Have to peel it off but readily reattaches itself. :eek:

Thank you to everyone that is indicating a desire to help out. I'm holding the questions for about a week more until we get a good group of responders and then I'll send them out to folks via PM. So be sure to check the Notifications tab at the very top of the page when visiting the site.

Regarding posting the questions here, I'll do that much later - I'd like as many direct responders as possible before a general dialog opens up on a message thread.

Thanks again!

If you have a grey that has or is feather challenged, including plucking, over-preening or other kind of feather mutilation, post a response here or PM me. Large, small, long-term, or short-term pluckers are encouraged to contact me.

I'm starting a small study about feather issues with our Greys. I have a set of questions to send to responders, and then I'll compile and post detail information.

It is clear that there is a lot of misinformation out there, often anecdotal, with much of it contradictory. My hope is to document and find correlations with external factors as well as physical data, including diagnosed medical issues. I want to thank everyone in advance for their time and responses. The more information that I can obtain will obviously lead to better data and possible conclusions.

Again, please PM me or post a response so I can send the questions to you.

Yeah, Dayo has Dan down really good!

It should be OK to use it for roofing - it's not like your Grey is going to be chewing on the roof material. Many outdoor aviaries use galvanized wire mesh products for the walls. As long as it is good quality there truly is little danger to your bird(s).

That said, why not put up a nice corrugated polycarbonate roof on the aviary - the sunshine is welcomed (as long as you have shade sources like some trees in there).

One answer is to not put your grey into a position that makes him/her need to bite. Another answer is to pay attention to your grey's response and stop what you are doing before a bite occurs.

Seriously, a bite is a last-resort way for our birds to protect themselves. They don't inherently want to bite, aren't malicious, and don't hold a grudge.

Do a quick search on biting and you'll find so much great info to read. Get to know your grey's body language and correlate it to what you're doing at the time.

There's more, but start with that. I think others will have some good wisdom that might help you.

I would sure like to know what kind of shot your vet is talking about. A simple hormone shot (one only) should stop her cycle for a significant time. That single shot is really cheap (around $20-30 max). I'd get a second opinion from another vet.

Get to the vet immediately. As Judy and Dave have said, her calcium is low and her internal organs are in jeopardy. The vet can give her a simple hormone shot to halt the egg laying and can check vitamin levels in the blood.

I would recommend talking to your vet about why this might be happening, such as lighting levels, petting, sounds, etc. It's one thing to correct the symptoms, but it's more important to try to find and fix the cause.

Good luck and let us know what the vet says!

I have yet to uncover an actual instance where a band has caught on something. Yes, there's a lot of anecdotal "my friend said that...." around the internet, but I haven't seen it in my years of exposure to companion birds. I queried my vet about it and she had not experienced an issue or treated for it.

Now, split bands are different. They are dangerous as beaks will get caught on them. But closed bands are no issue.

As a breeder, I make a concious decision to band all my birds, for a wide variety of reasons. You as an owner can make the decision to have the bands removed. Personally, I see no valid reason other than a personal choice.

If a vet is telling you to remove, please ask why. For that matter, if your vet is telling you that you should do anything, get a reason and consider the pros and cons.

Vet removal only. Your bird will love you for not doing it yourself - it can be extremely dangerous.

Hi Cryttergyrl,

It takes a long time for trust to grow with greys, especially an older bird. I recall reading that Gandalf was taking treats from you. Is he still doing that? Any other signs of interest? Did he ever step up regularly?

Do you know any of Gandalf's history? There's likely some baggage and old bad habits to get past.

I see you're in Indiana. What area are you in?

I know....lots of questions.

I provide Roudybush for all my greys. My companion greys get Roudybush maintenance, and my breeders get Roudybush High Energy Breeder. There truly is no better nutritional mix than that. (All the top-tier brands such as Roudybush and Harrision's are nutrtionally close to each other).

While pellets are the staple food, a good mix of veggies, fruits, and grains are essential for healthy birds. I also supplement the pellets and organics with a good seed mix such as Higgins Mayan Harvest (no junk seeds there).

Abba seeds are a cheap product and are easy for people to sign up and resell. So it tends to get pushed a lot by someone looking to make an easy buck. Roudybush, Harrisons, Zupreem, etc are all much more difficult to qualify for wholesale sales and are typically available through a completely different sales channel. I don't see Abba foods as a viable alternative. Period.

As was suggested by Birdhouse do not spray with Listerine or any alcohol-containing product unless advised by an avian vet! Note, it is quite rare for greys to have a mite issue, so there is no need spraying your bird directly. By all means, clean the cage and rinse....but not the bird.

Beak scratching is a very normal activity for greys and is rarely a sign of illness or distress.

That said, with the onset of winter our birds do tend to get irritated skin and overly dry skin. The lower humidity and household heat are typical culprits. Do a search on the site for Aloe juice (not gel, repeat, not gel) and for colloidal oatmeal. Routine sprays of those two alleviate most skin issues. Applying humidity like you are helps.

Can you post a few pictures so we can see what you're talking about. What other changes have you noted? Food doesn't sound to be an issue. What about dropping color? What is hitting your instincts that something is wrong?

That's pretty cheap for that size cage. It's similar to the A&E cage at http://www.aecageco.com/Parrot_Cages-36_x28_Dome_Top_Cage_with_1_Bar_Spacing.html that is about $100 more at breeder pricing. It would be interesting to put them side by side.

As a breeder, I'm asked about sex differences on a regular basis. My response to prospective buyers is that bird personality is much more important than gender. Unlike people, gender-specific personality differences are often insignificant in greys. Our greys aren't like dogs, where gender-induced traits are quite notable.

In a specific clutch of babies, there are distinct personalities being presented, even at a young age of two to three months - well before weaning age and when a prospective owner will be picking their companion. But, these personality traits are not due to gender. I'll try to help the owner assess the personality and energy type of grey they would be most happy with. Of course, the best choice is to be able to spend time at the aviary to let the baby "pick" its owner. It's amazing to see it happen and to see it really work.

The only other real consideration regarding gender is if you already have grey in your household. If you do, then it's usually recommended to have the same gender simply to remove the inevitable mating issues with pairing up a male and female.

Egg binding in females is a very unusual problem and shouldn't take precedence over the day-to-day compatibility from personality. Remember that a female isn't usually hormonally obliged to lay an egg if they aren't in pretty darn good physical shape. Independent egg-laying is not a common enough issue to warrant it to be a selection priority over general personality.

My opinion....other's may differ.

The weights mentioned are right in line with averages. What's more important is the right weight for your grey as well as the weight trend.

At four months, Spencer was very close to fledge time, when greys have a notable loss due to the increased activity preparing to fly, etc. A 10% drop is not unheard of. Most of the weight is gained back in the next few months. So, Spencer's 430g sounds reasonable.

As mentioned earlier, weight trend is very important. Be sure to get in the habit of weighing once month at the same time of day (ie, first thing in the morning). Track the weight and watch for significant changes. A drop is a signal to get your bird in to the vet ofr a check, as weight loss is the first sign of illness or distress.

6 month weight is considered to be adult weight. But, some males will continue to gain until around the one-year mark.

First recommendation is to not rush anything with a new companion parrot. Take the time to build trust, etc. It's really easy to establish a phobia this early out of the gate.

As far as when to start - do it now. You can couple the trust-building with some simple training. For example, you mention Gary is coming out of his cage regularly. Work with him to learn or reinforce step up. Conversely, work with him to learn to return to the cage as a training regimen.

You ask about the use of a clicker. I'm not a fan of it, as I usually need two hands to train and I wouldn't always have a clicker on hand. My vocal reinforcements are my method. However, a lot of people here do use clickers and prefer that method. It should be whatever works for you and Gary. Especially Gary.

Lots of training sources out there. I recommend Barbara Heidenreich's Goodbird.com. Stay away from birdtricks, please. Join a local cage bird club and team up with someone knowledgeable.

Don't push it too hard, though. Remember that training is a discipline of consistency and patience.

Ah, gotcha! That makes a lot of sense, and it really does sound like you've got balanced birds.

I think I'd figure out one thing to teach one of the birds, and work exclusively with that bird in the training exercise. You might find that the others will take a keen interest in the activity and clamour for some of their own. Flock peer pressure is rather amazing. I do the same thing with my baby greys, by letting them see one of my older greys train with me. They start to pick up things really fast.

Keep up the great work on having a flock that loves to be with you!

And unfortunately, what you describe is usually how 'toos behave - they want purposeful attention almost all the time. Now, Murdock shouldn't be quite so dependent.

Are you the only one in your household that interacts with them?

What happens if you simply sit in the same space as the birds (without any vocalization or interaction)?

KarKar did point you to one of the best sources for help. Barbara Heidenreich has some great DVD's that might provide some good guidance.