DavidH

As a bonus for ONE of the psychic winners, I will donate $15 to your favorite animal or human charity. Here's why: I was so excited with the blood sample that I was on the verge of sending it FED EX to the lab. In the end, my cheapness won the battle with my excitement, and I went with the $0.42 stamp, saving approx. $15. HOW TO WIN: I will post the sexing results here as soon as I get them. The first person to post back and say, "I told you so!" wins the $15 donation in his or her name.

Shanti went to the vet today. Turns out that -- contrary to what the appts. secretary told me -- she's not an avian vet. But the good news is she is super a regular certified vet who is super well-informed on greys because owns her own CAG, which she rescued from euthanasia several years ago! Anyway, Shanti is in good health and weighing in at 450 g. I got some free Harrison's samples, so we'll see how that goes. Now for the fun part: The vet took a blood sample which I am mailing today to avianbiotech.com to find out Shanti's gender. The breeder swore Shanti was male, based on 30 yrs experience and intuitions about the general size of the bird. But we'll see. What's your guess?

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see more and more differences between TAG and CAG noted as research develops. This is what happened with chimpanzees and bonobos. Until about the 1980s or so bonobos were still considered "pygmy chimps" -- a subspecies with identical genes and behavior. As more research was done, huge differences were observed over a wide range of behaviors, and bonobos became recognized as a separate species. Now nobody considers them a "type of chimpanzee."

I will probably have the vet do the test this week. I only care because it's awkward to talk about (and to) him/her with an ambiguous gender. We speak four languages in this household and in a lot of instances you have to make a gender assumption. For example, do I say Hola guapo (male) or hola guapa (female)?

Looks like you've bonded big time, Berna. You won't regret it if you say yes. On the other hand, you can't ALWAYS say yes. Having all your significant other humans on board is a good sign (you mentioned your parents), but in the end it's your decision alone.

I think Greys do understand "making the peace" on their end too. To put in more scientific terms, they reconcile after disputes. Compromise/reconciliation is in the individual interest of the bird and the collective interest of the flock. I need to do lots more thinking and observing about this, but I find it interesting.

The commercial is funny, but I always wince a little when I see animals used to sell beer (or anything else). The chimp commercials are the ones that upset me the most because they're usually about demeaning the animal. Maybe it's just my "pet" peeve.

Good choice, Robert. I would have said the same thing if you went with the CAG though Keep us posted on how your life is transformed for the better!

When I got my bird he was stepping up on everyone's hands at the breeders' like a trained performer. Then he came home and wouldn't let go of the cage for 6 weeks. He's always been very affectionate with petting and scrinching, but he clung to the bars like his whole being depended on it. Gradually he put one foot up and then another. Now I can take him out and put him back in the cage with a treat cue. He's still not entirely comfortable, but he's making progress every day. You just need to hang in there, have patience. Everyone says it, but it's true.

I noticed someone had asked about reading material on Greys. Here's a list of 4 good books Perhaps other people can add more. "Alex and Me" by Irene M. Pepperberg: "How a scientist and a parrot uncovered a hidden world of animal intelligence -- and formed a deep bond in the process" (Harper Collins) "The Birdkeepers' Guides: African Greys" by Greg Glendell ( TFH Publications) "African Grey Parrots: A Complete Pet Owner's Manual" (Barron's) "For the Love of Greys: The Complete Guide to a Healthy and Happy African Grey" by Bobbi Brinker (Lucky Press)

Thanks, as usual, to everyone for the insights and wisdom. Shanti is only 8 months old, so he may well outgrow the cuddling phase, but for now it's delightful.

I was reading an "expert's" guide to Greys, and the author recommended lots of toys and activities which would prevent "overpetting" the parrot. I have absolutely nothing against toys and activities. On the contrary, I'm doing everything I can to stimulate Shanti's mind, body and soul and to prevent boredom. But he is very affectionate and likes plenty of petting/cuddling/scrinching. I can't see rationing the affection. What do other's think? Is there a downside to scrinching/petting/preening?

Lois, Sounds like you are having a hard time with your Military Macaw. Is it noise? Aggression? If you are really at the end of your rope, there may be shelters, adoption/rehab services in your area that would take him. Or maybe you can get help from others with lots of Macaw experience. Trading is not a great idea. It offends people because they hear it as if you were saying, "I have a child who is always causing trouble. Can I upgrade him for a different one?" Parrots aren't people and you shouldn't feel guilty if you've really tried and it's not working out. But the first step is finding the right home for the Macaw, BEFORE you start thinking about a substitute.

Thanks to everyone for all the support and good wishes. And yes, Mazy, (and others who always stress this), I have learned the big picture lesson: Patience.

"Pet birds originally obtained in the U.S.A. and returning to the U.S.A. with the owner are allowed to re-enter without a USDA import permit. The pet bird may be quarantined in the owner's home for the 30-day quarantine period." That sounds like your answer. Much of the other info refers to importation of MEXICAN birds. Check with the authorities, and GET SOMETHING IN WRITING, but I'm betting that one pet bird is not a big deal. Birds cross the border all the time without passports. They just fly. People do drive and walk back and forth with dogs -- no problem.

After 6 weeks of teaching Shanti to step up. http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp155/DavidHoward_photo/DSCN5302.jpg<br><br>Post edited by: DavidH, at: 2009/01/28 09:14

That is terrific that you adopted Shrodie and that she is doing so well! Phoenix Landing looks like an awesome organization. I'll put up a link to it on my blog.

Right, Dan. The mirror text is a good measure of inclusion in self-consciousness, but it doesn't exclude. Dogs are the best example, I think. They are much more likely to pass a smell-based version of self-awareness than a sight-based one. There are many other reasons why animals might not "get" mirrors and still be self-aware. We're more likely to get to the core of self-consciousness through neurological and biochemical knowledge. And even then we'll have species where the line is impossible to draw. We may have to stretch our concept of consciousness and self to fit species like bees and fish. Given current knowledge we can talk about a broad community of animal feeling, in which we humans participate.

Awesome! Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Dan and Lisa, I'm going to try to blog today about animal rights. One of the excuses people give for denying animals rights is that rights are only for persons, i.e., "moral agents."

Thanks, Lyric. I could probably think of 10 good reasons to clip --- I'm in the kitchen cooking a lot and I can't see him from there; my daughters always leave the door open; there's a cat; etc. , etc. But I had lots of "good" reasons for not getting Shanti in the first place. And it's all worked out great. So I'm keeping an open mind here too. I'll update in a few months

Yes, it is an interesting topic, Dan. Even though we on the Forum are a community of humans and parrots who talk, one important thing to keep in mind with animals is that they don't really possess full-blown human language -- not even Alex. A 1000-word vocabulary and the concepts of shape, color and number are astounding, but parrots and the Great Apes don't have a powerful human-type syntax -- just a rudimentary receptiveness to learn to comprehend and communicate in symbols (see also the chimpanzee Nim Chimsky and others). In other words, no parrot is conducting an interior monologue the way we humans do at all waking moments. No parrot can understand if we ask her, "What do you want for your birthday?" or tell her, "If you pick up all your toys and put them in a neat pile, I'll share my banana with you." It's very debatable whether parrots have a "theory of mind". How much of a notion of "self" they have is also unclear (see mirror self-image tests for elephants, apes, dolphins, etc.) I certainly don't mean to underestimate the intelligence of our darlings. They are clearly among the smartest animals on the planet, but I think it's their feelings and their bonding to us that tell us most about their inner lives. Through their words and behavior we may get glimpses of their sense (or lack) of feelings of fairness, cooperation, empathy -- which are the biological foundations of altruism and morality-- but the really marvelous and mysterious thing is their range and depth of emotion, expressed in extraordinary connectedness to us. People who expect their parrots to be "good" by human values may miss how GREAT they are as parrots. Parrots are not "bad" if they appear to be jealous, selfish, stingy, aggressive, dirty or unfriendly. They're not "good" when they're cuddly, sociable and obedient. They're just parrots being parrots.

Beautiful photo. Makes me want a conure

Morality in non-human animals is a tricky issue. We human animals have evolved morality from adaptations relating to sharing, cooperating, nurturing, protecting, defending, empathy, etc. If morality is in us, its biological roots have to be in other animals. There are some good books that touch on questions of morality in animals (right v. wrong) and even spirituality. I recommend the work of Marc Bekoff, Frans de Waal, Lesley Rogers, Peter Singer, and others. For me, the best way to understand the capacity for morality is to look closely at the emotional responses of animals. Animals in the wild do feel emotions like sorrow, loneliness, joy, fear, anger, contentment, caring (love?) Animals understand other animals' expectations. Social animals like wolves, parrots, gorillas and elephants are deeply involved in relationships, often lifelong, which suggest a life of subtle and intense feelings. Regret may be hard to demonstrate ("I'm sorry"), but the emotions of sorrow, frustration, relief, happiness from achievement, even embarrassment, etc. may be a lot easier, and these feelings are related to regret. Eventually, we'll know enough about biochemistry to measure emotion in animals better. Bottom line: My sense is that if you really study what an animal feels, the question of morality won't even come up. I've blogged on some of these issues with some links to expert opinion.

Jan, go to Tat's profile and click on the Flicker link she provided.