Julie

They are out in an open bird room all day. At night they sleep in separate night cages, and always have.

I have to male African Greys (DNA tested), who are brothers. They are both a little over a year old, and I've noticed more squabbling than usual, however they still groom and feed each other. As they sexually mature is there any reason to think that they will fight, or will they probably be okay since they have been together their entire lives? I'm just wondering if this is an accident waiting to happen, and I've never really heard of two male African Greys being together. Most people probably don't have two male clutch mates, however. Thanks. jdfitzwater@aol.com

I think he needs a friend. Ever since he turned 2 (March 29th) Dante is coming up with all sorts of new words and behaviors. The phrases are "It's a birdie song!" He has also started a new space ship sound. His other thing is he now says, "Oh, okay, okay, alrigh, uh huh." Additionally, ALL he wants to do when he's with me is to try to grasp my finger with one foot so he has something to steady himself while he rolls over onto his side and then his back. He wants me to try to tickle his chest so he can hang onto my finger and chew on it. Then he wants to hang upside down from my finger. He thinks he's a gymnast. He also has started hanging from his rope perch from his beak and flailing his legs so I'll put my hand under him so he can step up and make me play the "Dante thinks he's a labrador retriever" game to try to get me to let him chew on my hand while he lies on his back. Anybody else have these types of goings on in their homes? He and Picasso seem to be hitting it off and Dante loves to come with us to visit. Picasso will be coming home mid-may. Pictures attached below. http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y84/jdfitzwater/Picasso%203%2021%2009/apr%205%202009/?albumview=slideshow

I found an interesting blog about the subject of veterinarians, and I really liked what the person who wrote the blog had to say (pasted below). I also started my own blog (link below). Lastly, on my website, I fixed the chronology of events under "Timeline" so that they load much faster and are much more readable for anybody who wants to know the details of Gomez's final days at the hands of his vet. http://www.VetsGoneBad.com Blog Intro from other person: The biggest threat to our pets is our own naiivete. In spite of numerous reports of malpractice and worse, veterinarians continue to enjoy one of the highest ratings for "honesty" among all professions. They are universally -- and blindly trusted. Those of us who have learned the hard way that blind trust is dangerous for our pets are struggling to break through to the consciousness of our fellow loving pet owners, to inspire some healthy skepticism, before they and their pets too fall victim. If reading this blog gets one pet owner to admit the thought into their minds that maybe -- just maybe -- they shouldn't blindly trust their vet, it will have been worth it. We need to become proactive in evaluating vets and their care, not waiting for a tragedy. We need to ask questions like: "Who will be there overnight? What are his credentials? Let me speak with him," or, "What are my pet's kidney values, and what are the potential side effects of that drug?" We shouldn't need to do these things but we do because ... . .well, because there are so many bad vets. the blog above: http://badvetdaily.blogspot.com My new blog: http://vetsgonebad.blogspot.com<br><br>Post edited by: Julie, at: 2009/04/11 05:46

I've been working on a website that applies to all species of birds. It's about what happened to Gomez, how it effected my African Grey (Dante), and to hopefully make people aware of the laws regarding veterinarians and what we can do as pet owners. I hope this site helps others, so they don't go through what my family went through. http://www.vetsgonebad.com

Dante reminded me that he would only be 2 on the 29th, and that Einstein was 17. Duly noted. Then again, Einstein doesn't say "So there, Hmm!!" with feeling, like Dante does. LOL

B doesn't make any sense because, if that were true, then captive greys could be given lots of colorful fruits and vegetables and they would change color. Dante loves blueberries, and I have yet to see a blue feather. No lurking oompa loompas waiting to juice him either. LOL The pictures I have seen of wild Greys show that their color blends in with the ground there. I'd think the bright red tail might be a give away though. If only Dante had a larger vocabulary, I could just ask him. I could also ask why some mornings he'll let me sleep in, and others he won't even let me leave the room without barking for me.

I just got a new Eclectus yesterday (he comes home mid-May). We named him Picasso . . . goes well with Dante. My Eclectus Gomez passed away several weeks ago after surgery to fix a broken leg. I don't know if it helps or not, but here's the rest of the list I had: Pepsi Dusty Schroeder (from Peanuts) Odie Iago Rover Dorian (Dorian Gray) Spike Jazzy Jasper Spike Woodstock Fang Zalman Astro Slash Donatello Comedy Grayson

Maybe Dante needs a hobby or a vocation . . . before people start to talk? LOL. I guess I should just be happy I can't see the invisible tennis players. He'll also hang upside down and scream at his toys and go side-to-side. His latest . . . hanging upside down by one foot while preening his chest. I told him he's making me nervious, but he didn't seem to care.

Side to side; like he's hunched over watching invisible people play tennis on the floor. Definitely not up and down. Side to side - entire body and head.

My CAG (male) has started leaning over and acting like he's watching invisible tennis players on the floor. He sometimes does this silently, and sometimes calls out, "Oh dear!" Is he playing or is something wrong? Thanks.

Thanks, those are essentially the things the behaviorist told me to do. Hopefully it will also help when my son comes home. Dante also developed this game where he likes to hang upside down and get me to scratch his belly, then he reaches out with a foot and wants my finger so he can hang on to it tightly and bite it. When that element of the game appeared I stopped engaging in that game completely. I also wonder if this is part of why he's doing it? I'm upset by the vet's behavior in Gomez's case. I also wonder if me bringing him in with the broken leg on Wednesday and surgery not being done until Friday contributed to anything. Also, when I picked him up, they filed his beak and put a collar on him. When he got into his carrier (a plastic tub), he seemed really thirsty, and the water he drank came out of his nose. The next morning he let out a few screams, stopped breathing and died. The vet said he was shocked and offered to do a necropsy because he said he needed to find out for himself. He said he would do the necropsy that night and call me that night. He never did. I called two days later and he said that when he opened Gomez up that his intestines were full of blood. He didn't bother to call me or ask if I wanted blood work or an independent necropsy. He just disposed of the body. I told him he could do that after the necropsy, but I would think if he found something that disturbing in the necropsy that he would call. He asked me what I fed Gomez and I said Earth's Best Organic Baby Food. He said something in the baby food killed him. Dante ate the same food and was fine. This isn't a main staple of their diet by any means. They get sprouted seed, fruits, vegetables, beans, etc as the main part. I just used maybe a tablespoon sometimes for some flavoring, especially the one that was a large mix of vegetables. Earth's Best makes it very clear that there are no food colorings, etc. I also told him before he did Gomez's surgery that I fed him this sometimes and he didn't say a word. I asked other vets and an Eclectus specialist and they both said this explanation is impossible. I went in person and asked for the necropsy report and was stalled and told there was a 48 hour turn around time. The vet told me I would have it that night. A week later I wrote a letter stating I wanted the report in 48 hours. The next day I got 4 pages of illegible handwriting faxed to me. In all of the scrawl I couldn't make out anything that said "babyfood" or anything about blood in the intestines. He also offered to compensate me by seeing if he could get an unweaned baby from a breeder if I could get somebody to hand feed it. He said it would be a low cost to me to purchase it from the breeder. Selling unweaned birds is illegal in California. Note that this guy is supposed to be one of the top avian surgeons. When I called around to reputable people looking for an Eclectus and they asked why an Eclectus and I told them, it's amazing the stories you hear. The whole thing is a nightmare. If anybody lives in California and you have a bird that needs surgery, check with me so you don't end up in this position. Something is very weird about his behavior ever since he did this supposed "necropsy." Julie

Thanks Dave - "Oh Dear" is something he learned from my son. I was just saying the vocalization went along with the imaginary tennis match on the ground. I didn't mean it had reference to Gomez. When he calls out "Gomie!" then it may. He stopped doing this, however. He enjoyed looking outside the sliding glass door. Then I put the bubble wrap up to insulate the house and he couldn't see out. Now it's down and he can see outside. I didn't mean he was looing for Gomez, just that these new behaviors did somewhat coincide with him having his view returned. I know ignoring bad behavior supposedly extinguishes it, I just don't want Dante to think that if he wants me to go away, biting is the way to communicate this to me. Julie

My Eclectus, Gomez passed away almost two weeks ago after leg surgery. My African Grey, Dante, is exhibiting new behaviors now. Also, my son left for camp a few days ago, which probably also didn't help. My Eclectus died in front of Dante. He gave out a few screams and stopped breathing. Dante has started talking more and stopped a lot of the calling and beeping and barking he was doing when I left the room. He still does it but it isn't as intense. Even when I was in the room he would constantly beep and yell for attention when Gomez was still alive and that's calmed down. However, he's begun to stand at the top of his cage at the back and he looks down at the floor and moves his head and body back and forth like he's watching tiny people play tennis or something and he repeatedly says, "Oh dear, oh dear!" He's also started biting me when I ask him to step up. I'm working with a behaviorist that told me to notice his behavior and my behavior before he bites. He isn't all that into food rewards, and will take the food and throw it to the ground to show me how much he doesn't care about it. I am told to offer my hand and if he lunges or bites to walk away. I don't want to teach him that biting makes me walk away. The behaviorist agreed and she said the key is to not let him bite or lunge in the first place. In other words, if he won't step up onto his play stand, wheel it into the house. The behaviorist is great, I'm just wondering if anybody else has suggestions or insight. Also, I had bubble wrap on the back sliding glass door by his cage to insulate against the cold. It started to come down the other day so I pulled it down. For the past three months he hasn't been able to look out the window. For the past 6 days now, he has been able to look out the window into the back yard again (which he likes). I think it's helped with the screaming, and he's playing with a bottle trying to get the lid off now, which he stopped doing (playing independently) when the bubble wrap was up. He's playing now in front of the window so he can look out. I'd think that would make his behavior better, not worse. He'll also be 2 on March 29 . . . hormones? Does anybody have any additional suggestions. I can't believe he's biting. Dante and I have always had a good relationship and now it's falling apart. He also had a lot of pin feathers a week ago, but his feathers seem to be coming in. Suggestions? Post edited by: Julie, at: 2009/03/07 01:45<br><br>Post edited by: Julie, at: 2009/03/07 01:46

I've done a lot of research on these, and I have had one of the Green Gourmet pans for two months now. It's great and my birds are fine. They also use minimal heat to get hot. They never smell like chemicals when you heat them, even the first time. Obviously you don't want to burn anything in them, but the same is true for stainless steel or any other pan you would cook with. I was going crazy using stainless steel that everything stuck to, so this has been great. The only downside is that this cookware isn't cheap, but it's well worth it. http://www.cuisinart.com/catalog/product.php?product_id=794&item_id=986&cat_id=366 http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=113717&RN=0 http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?order_num=-1&SKU=16034185<br><br>Post edited by: Julie, at: 2008/12/12 11:36

Once again, I felt the warning that it was graphic was sufficient, and that birds or children shouldn't be in the room since it involves the trapping of Greys. Beyond that, to add that you would never watch that type of horror COULD prevent somebody from even reading what the organization does. People have a visceral reaction to that type of statement. If I say that a video from an organization saving African elephants has graphic pictures of elephants being slaughtered and their tusks removed, that's sufficient information for any thinking person to determine for themselves whether or not they want to view it. If I then add, "Anybody who would lay eyes on this video is a sadist who must enjoy watching animals being tortured, and you couldn't pay me to watch this horror," there is a subliminal message that you are somehow better than somebody who would watch it (for whatever reason they might have), and people may tend to throw out the baby with the bath water and not even bother to look into what the organization does. There's also a subliminal message that reflects negatively on the organization that somehow they are doing something wrong in making that video accessible for public viewing. If I had any idea that my post would have caused this debate, I would have simply just posted the link to the organization (which I really wish I had done). However, in hindsight, had my post not generated such a lively debate, my post may have ended up on the bottom of the page. So I guess, in a way, we've made sure that most people on this forum have seen this post. ;-) I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. I'm happy to admit that I simply should have posted the link to the organization and not the video, if you could admit that possibly the disclaimer that it contained graphic material would have been sufficient. Julie

Conversely, I have two bunnies, and they love it when the birds drop their food on the ground. LOL.

I really liked the "He said, she said" one, but I thought quite a few of them were worth reading. http://www.parrots.org/index.php/referencelibrary/behaviourandenviroenrich/<br><br>Post edited by: Julie, at: 2008/12/09 08:09

I respect your opinion, and in no way do I think that the video is pleasant to watch. I also appreciate that you wanted to post a warning; I probably should have done the same. However, you went beyond the disclaimer of the video being disturbing, and did say that you would "refuse to watch such horror." My point, and my only point, was that this organization is trying to make it so nobody has to see videos like this again, and I didn't want your comment to make people not look at anything else I said or not GOING TO THE WEBSITE AND SEEING WHAT THIS GROUP DOES. The website is informative, not graphic, unless you specifically click on the link that shows video footage. This is why there are programs like "Whale Wars." Nobody likes to see slaughtered wales, but it gets the point across. Also, these people DO something, they just don't talk about how horrible it is. I have no debate about the film. It's disgusting. However, the real question is has anybody gone to this site to see what they can do to help, as this practice still goes on? I know that Dante was hand raised, but somewhere in the past, and in order for him to be here today, at some point AG's he's related to were taken this way. It's a way of correcting that for me, and to honor Dante and all that he has given me. That is my point, and my only point. The video is irrelevant to the bottom line, and a distraction to taking action to help wild AG's or to simply put this organization in to receive a donation if you are going to be holiday shopping on-line anyhow. Thanks. Julie

I understand. I just don't want people to see the other post and not bother to get the main point of what I said, which was to help the cause if you were interested in doing so. The other part of my message was that since most people are shopping on-line for the holidays that they can give to this, or any of 41 other parrot organizations, and it won't cost anything on the igive site. I just didn't want people to lose sight of my point which really has nothing to do with graphic videos, but one of helping if they can. I certainly didn't enjoy the video, but if I can prevent even 1 AG from going through that then it's worth it. That was the point of my post. I hope that helps to clarify.

Yes, but the money spent on the DVD shown on YouTube goes towards making sure this doesn't happen anymore. That DVD wasn't made to ruin your day, it was made so people are aware of how these birds are acquired and it motivates people to reach into their wallets to help. Statistics and cute stories don't accomplish this. African Grey's didn't walk to America themselves. Descendents of our happy Grey's at home may be some of the ones people save with their $20 purchase of that DVD. You can also go to http://www.igive.com/welcome/# and choose one of the parrot rescue organizations signed up with them and, simply shopping on-line at more than 700 popular retailers (GAP, Amazon.com, Drs. Foster)will donate money to this cause and will cost no more than what you intended to spend anyhow. I can purchase what I usually would on-line at Drs. Foster and they will donate money to the rescue group of my choosing. I think getting involved is a wonderful tribute to our African Greys who have what so many others do not.<br><br>Post edited by: Julie, at: 2008/12/09 02:17

Both of these links give great information, and buying the DVD goes towards saving the wild African Greys. I've also attached a copy of their magazine w/pictures. http://www.parrots.org/savethegreys

Thanks. Yes, his beeps sound like a fire alarm going off. I keep asking him how that loud of a sound can come out of such a little bird. He has a boing and used to go on it all the time, but now he doesn't. I also have a cage outside and I sometimes put him out there to distract him, but then he just "alarms" outside. The only way to make him stop is to put him on my hand. Sometimes if I whisper or keep talking to him he'll stop but not always. I hate that I'm scared to leave the room. Lucky for him he's cute and I love him.

My African Grey calls me with loud obnoxious whistles and phone ringing when I leave the room for even a second. I tell him I'll be right back, but that doesn't help. I feel like I'm going to lose my mind when he does this. I know the books say to ignore the behavior and only respond when he's quiet, but I live in an apartment building so this isn't always possible. I try to take him with me when I can, but it seems to me to be ridiculous that I have to go pick him up off his cage and carry him to the kitchen with me to get a Diet Coke out of the refrigerator. I've had him since he was a baby and he's never been left or abandoned so I'm not sure why he's so insecure. We have a new baby Eclectus in the house, but my CAG was doing this before the Eclectus arrived. Suggestions?