domyoburk

Good suggestions on this thread! Especially the training to hand as a substitute for head landings and the wagging the head back and forth to avoid them (I duck way down). Thing is, I personally prefer Ursula to land on my head as there are no ears or eyes for her to chomp on there. She's not so mellow with me as with my husband so these are always possibilities! I also am working on training her to STAY - showing my palm and giving her a treat when she doesn't fly over. Of course, we're at the very early stages - that only works when she doesn't actually want to fly over!

Pics of the netting are successfully uploading to a different thread: "Pics of Netting - Safe Indoor Flight" BTW, we live in Portland Oregon and can never try free flight because we have way too many hawks. I was walking to work with Ursula in our Celltei backpack one day and a Cooper's Hawk flew right by me and landed on the grass and looked at me, very confused as to why her snack was packaged in such a strange contraption.

It worked! OK, here's the netting over our bedroom window (there are also screens; the netting is a double protection): Here's looking out our patio door to our balcony; the door opening is completely covered by what I call our "batting cage," made with pvc pipe: Here's the batting cage from inside, while standing outside the door: And finally the batting cage from outside! The neighbors probably think we're crazy, but you can't be too careful!!! The batting cage can be opened along the edge and re-closed with clips; we shut the glass patio door (Ursula inside) before ever opening the clips!

There has been some interest in seeing the netting set-up I have made for our apartment so Ursula can fly but there's much less danger of her flying out the door or window. We got the netting online from West Coast Netting; it's industrial strength so not easily broken or bitten through, and you can order it to size complete with a finished edge. OK, here goes another attempt at photo upload! Pic on photobucket, copy the img url into the message:

OK, here I try the photo upload again... And no, we think Ursula's feather picking is mostly due to GI irritation. We took her off pellets and have to be sure not to feed her simple carbs (like crackers, sorry Ursula!) and we keep it mostly under control. Sometimes she bites a few feathers off when molting too, it seems to be her response to discomfort. Anyway, flying doesn't seem to have much impact so far. So now I paste in the photbucket img url, hope this works!

Trying to attach the photo again!

We got Ursula clipped and wanted her to be able to fly. We read lots of stuff on the difficulty of birds learning to fly when older... But great news, Ursula is about 22 months old and has most of her flight feathers, and she has taken to flight like a natural. She couldn't wait; she's always dived off of things, so with each new flight feather she's gone farther. Now it's back and forth in the house and 180 degrees turns and fancy landings. Much fun! We have screens on all windows plus heavy-duty industrial (1.5 inch by 1.5 inch) netting over the windows, just in case she was able to knock out a screen. We have netting hanging in our entryway too; you come in our door, shut the door, walk 6 feet and come through the netting - like an airlock. I ordered the netting online, if anyone is interested - west coast netting - you can specify the size. You can't be too careful!

I was struck by how our behaviorist taught us how to break everything down into tiny, tiny baby steps. Basically deciding on a very reasonable goal and then using tiny steps to work up to that. I wanted Ursula to stop biting and step up. First, I put my hand a foot away and then offered her a treat she liked (toy, snack, whatever). When that was acceptable to her, I moved my hand a little closer. Some days or session she wouldn't go for that. Gradually I moved my hand closer - placing it in a particular place, not moving it once I offered the treat (not changing the conditions). If she didn't go for it within three seconds, I removed hand and treat and tried again later (after a minute, or at a later session). Gradually, or when she was in a good mood, I worked up to offering the treat such that she hand to lean over my hand to get it, then up to asking her to put one foot on it. Then we moved to her stepping up on it in order to get the treat - but then I didn't move it! She could step right back down. Then we moved to short trips, but by that point she had more positive association with my hand. I also tuned into what she wanted - and they always want something, even if it's for us to go away! In your case, you might have Rob approach until just before Baby gets upset, then praise him (use a clicker to mark the moment if you can) and then reward Baby by having Rob move away. Dealing with parrots is so different from how we usually deal with dogs or people! There's just no forcing them without repercussions. If I start moving too quickly or demanding too much, Ursula will get bitey again... I will start to despair that she will ever change her habits and cooperate, and will decide something has to go in a particular way. But very patient, gentle, slow, positive interactions lead to a genuine friendship - it's so rewarding when they demonstrate interest or affection all on their own. It really is about taming a wild creature.

I have no idea whether this will work with your little guy, but Ursula used to lunge at my hand whenever I approached her for a step-up and now she doesn't! At the advice of a behaviorist I stopped making her step up (which is perhaps what your bird's previous owner did - you know, pressing the hand into their abdomen until they have to step up). In their terrible twos many greys, I hear, say "screw that!" and start biting. I would give Ursula a treat just for allowing my hand near and not lunging. When I HAD to move her I used a stick, but mostly used the "I'll ignore you then" routine until she wanted to come. She stopped associating my hand with coercion and stopped biting. Then she started associating stepping up on my hand with going fun places and doing fun things (NOT just going back in the cage). Now I offer my hand about 8 inches away, and if she wants to come with me she lifts a foot! And amazingly, she wants to come with me most of the time, especially when I tell her all about the fun things we'll be doing.

A co-worker of my husband is from Nigeria. When he showed her a picture of Ursula she said, "Oh, everyone has a Secret Bird!" When John asked her what she meant, she said that where she's from in Nigeria this is what they call African Greys, because if you leave home and someone else comes into your house, when you come back your bird will tell you all their secrets! Has anyone else ever heard this before? I think it's an awesome name for our birds.

We recently boarded Ursula at our vet's, where they also have a large boarding area just for birds. I was almost in tears when I dropped her off because she seemed so scared. I thought she would be traumatized and changed forever. There were screaming cockatoos in there and amazons repeating monotonous phrases, and... but at least we knew she would be physically taken care of, and not bored! They say it took her several days to a week to get used to it, and she was only taken out a few times in the two weeks she was there. But when I went to get her she recognized me right away. She seemed very happy to get home, but frankly she seemed no worse for the wear! Same old loving self, no new bad habits, only a new phrase, "I walk the walk. I wanna squawk." I have a friend who brings her Quaker to the same place, and she calls it "birdie camp." To me its a sign that the birds enjoy being in a room full of noisy birds in a way we can only imagine!

Question for our two folks with 7-month old greys: are you forcing your birds to step up? That is, after all, the old-school bird lore - just press your fingers into their abdomen until they have to step up. After all, sometimes you just have to move them, right? You need to leave and they have to go back in their cage, etc.? This approach works until our smart birds figure out they can just bite you to make it stop. Our behaviorist gave us strict instructions to never force a step up, especially with our hands (Ursula was biting too). When we absolutely must mover her and we know she's in a biting mood we use a perch (but then reward her). We offer our hands but don't force the issue, and the biting has stopped entirely. At first I thought this approach would be impossible (what do we do if we need to move her and she won't step up) but I was surprised how just being more sensitive and clever can work wonders. Sometimes we leave the room for a minute and then come back when Ursula now wants to be with her flock. Or we take advantage of her desire to come with us at a particular moment in order to make a move we'd planned on making later. We also do lots of positive reinforcement training for step ups at other times than when she's just going to be locked in a cage or moved away from something she wants (is it any wonder they start resisting when coming with us is always a bummer of an experience?). Anyway, don't know if any of this helps, but I am so happy with my girl and our relationship is so much better that I thought I would share.

Any positive interactions at all with Waldo? What does he like? (Treats, sitting on top of his cage, investigating a favorite toy, calling back and forth with you or some music?) Stepping up and allowing touch are two very familiar (meaning intimate, demanding) interactions with a bird; it's the first thing we humans expect from them but are actually something most are only inclined to do when they feel a very deep trust for and bond with you. So building that trust and bond have to start with much more subtle things...

I encourage you to invite a trainer over who is trained in and uses positive reinforcement ONLY. We are very fortunate to have someone like that in our area (Portland Oregon), and she trained me and my husband more than she trained Ursula. Ursula is completely tame and bonded to us, but she was getting very resistant to stepping up, particularly for me. She would nip at my hand when I offered it and a couple times bit rather hard. Our trainer emphasized again and again and again - tiny, incremental steps and an immense amount of patience. She said NEVER to force Ursula to step up with our hand, but rather to reward her whenever she does. First I had to reward her (food treats, or giving her something else she wanted) just for letting my hand be near her and not biting! Then we worked on my hand getting closer. Then we worked on her stepping up, getting the treat, and then getting to step right back down. Then we worked on moving a little. Time and time again I was inclined to skip steps and push the process, but our trainer kept emphasizing the tiny steps. Now Ursula rarely even nips at my hand, although she may not choose to step up at a given time. However, more and more often she chooses to come with me because I have shown her that positive experiences result from it. Anyway, what I mean to say is that we humans need the training more than the parrots do, so I encourage you to spare no effort or cost in getting some help! It can make all the difference. It also has made me learn how to tune into Ursula more - looking for the opportunities to give her what she wants, whether it's to move to particular place or play with the pen I am writing with. Listening and watching carefully for those opportunities to bond - it has been very educational!

Oops - actually it's flaccid gizzards and inflamed/enlarged elsewhere...

As to those who have success with pellets, more power to you! But I wanted to post this to let people know the possibility that your feathered family member may be more like Ursula, and actually sensitive to them. The last thing we considered was taking her off pellets! We only thought of restricting her diet even more to pellets than just letting her eat whatever she wants, more or less! Our vet mentioned that she often sees enlarged gizzards (with pellets they have nothing to work on), and in Ursula the problem was progressing further down the GI tract. She also says she has patients that have been on seed mix plus fresh food (a good, well-balanced seed mix like Voortmans) for decades and they are very healthy - the most important thing, she says, appears to be the amount of physical activity the bird gets. Sounds like of like humans!

We tried Lakes (what she had been weaned onto) and then Harrisons and then back again. And lest anyone think that was all we tried (!) - we adjusted sleeping time (12 hours all the way to keeping her up with us and getting her up with us, 8 hours of sleep); regular (non-chlorine) showers and no showers; no extra protein (pellets only, plus her fruit and veggies); hours of attention (bringing her to work with me or not); getting her bird company (parakeets) and finding a new home for her bird company; lots of toys and foraging opportunities. She's too young for it to be hormonal and it didn't follow any pattern. Otherwise she is/was happy, well-adjusted, bonded to both my husband and me, talkative, playful, non-territorial. Her sister (back and breeders) was not feather chewing. Our vet is big on careful examination of the droppings plus x-rays to see the state of the internal organs. Curiously, our previous vet (she loves birds, don't get me wrong!) was big on physical examinations. Recently we took Ursula in for a check up and her droppings revealed high levels of crystals, suggesting her kidneys were working overtime. When the vet heard we were giving Ursula vitamins (for molting) she asked us to stop, saying that birds are evolved to get with they need from very little and it's easy to overdose. Apparently Ursula has a sensitive GI system! But thank goodness the vet found this out before we did damage!

Pellets versus seeds is almost as volatile an issue with parrot owners as clipping versus not clipping, so please keep an open mind about this post. Our baby CAG started biting off feathers at about age 7 months, clipping them right at the base. She averaged 5 feathers a week for about 4 months... we visited an avian vet and tried everything we could think of. The vet finally figured it was behavioral, although without any apparent trigger or pattern. We felt sad and inadequate. When the barbering escalated, though, and she was biting off 20 feathers a day, we were in despair and decided to try a different avian vet. THANK GOODNESS we did! This new vet sees only birds and has done this for 20 years. She believes feather destruction is almost always due to a physical cause, it being the only way the bird can respond to discomfort or pain. An X-ray revealed Ursula's GI system was quite inflamed - and sure enough, her plucking had spread to her breast. Our vet has found that, despite the prevailing ideas out there, many parrots do not do well on pellets. They are too soft and rich. We transitioned Ursula from pellets to a good seed mix (she also gets veggies, fruits, beans and rice, etc.) and her plucking immediately decreased to a couple feathers a day. She has since molted and it's been months since she chewed any feathers. She will always be inclined to chew feathers when she's uncomfortable, most likely, but we will take it is a sign something is wrong and turn to our wonderful vet. Thank god there's a vet out there who had the expertise to get to the bottom of our problem instead of just blaming us for causing "behavioral" feather chewing!

Hmmm... making noise. I hadn't thought of that because none of the things she taps on make a dramatic noise (yet!), but it makes sense. She loves making noise with her voice much of the day, so why not? It did make me think a little of a woodpecker drumming on something to mark their territory...

Ursula has started making a funny head bob (it involves the whole neck, actually), and she taps/bangs her beak on something when she does it (food bowl, cage if she's standing on top of it, occasionally our hands if we're holding her). It's not enough to do damage, but it's not light, either! She usually bangs her beak (the tip, not the front) about 5 times or so at a shot (lasts about 2 seconds total). She usually does this when she's feeling frisky - not territorial, quite, but bold and rather excited. Anyone know what this means? Any other greys out there beak banging?

Thanks, Dan! That makes lots of sense - to pay careful attention so we can give her some sense of freedom in her environment, but not set up situations she gets to feel like she's succeeding in refusing a request from those pesky humans. Lately we approach, talking about whether she might want to "go" and making a subtle approach with our hand - if she really wants to go, she lifts a foot long before it's a step-up situation. If she doesn't lift a foot (and it doesn't matter), we let her be.

but they only ship to Canada?

Does anyone have any advice? We want to give Ursula choice about when and where she goes. She is clipped (a baby, we got her that way), so she needs us to carry her from place to place. When we want to see if she wants to go, we ask "Go?" and offer our two fingers to her. Sometimes she steps up, sometimes not. So we've given her choice. When we firmly say, "Step up" and then offer our hand, however, we are making a request that we won't let her refuse. I have done some clicker training with her around this and when we're training she steps up quickly and readily. BUT... naturally, sometimes she doesn't step up when we ask her to, even when we have used the command. She's getting more and more bitey about refusing to step up when it doesn't suit her. Is is possible to train her to differentiate between a choice ("Go?") and a command ("Step Up") or are we just asking for trouble?

This will sound a little like the "Ziva is driving me nuts" thread, but not so severe... our question: when to just let them do what they want and avoid conflict, and when to encourage them to do something you think is good for them? Ursula is driving us nuts, too. We had a great morning routine going - we'd get her out of her sleep cage, she'd sit on her perch by the dinner table and eat some pellets, then some beans and veggies my husband prepared, while we sat near her eating breakfast and drinking our coffee... we'd be sure she was getting a balanced diet this way. It was family time. No more - now most days she refuses to stay put, instead making to fly off the dining room perch and make for her cage, which is near (not right in front of) the window. Recent changes are a move to an identical apartment - except that where the windows used to be there is now a glass door out to a balcony. She seems obsessed with the window/door and whatever might be happening out there (we have a better view than before). We've also started putting foraging food in her cage, which she seems to love to the point of preferring it over sitting and eating with us. Essentially we'd rather have her stay put and eat than get so wacked out about we-don't-know-what. Should we just give up and let her go where she wants? (Ursula's one year old and starting to molt a little.)

It is pretty cute, though annoying. Anyone else have parrots that seem so concerned about having the whole flock present, especially first thing in the morning? Seems pretty natural to us... though maybe it's because Ursula is pre-breeding age and isn't fixated on one person?