Jopalis

OH yeah... btw that Dr. Rosskopf has a board where you can post questions. Maybe there is some diet stuff on there too.... Dr. Rosskopf, Dr Molnar and there is a Dr. Lavac that is supposed to be good too. I told him about some websites and recipes and he shot it down.... Maybe that's just him. I don't know.... Sounded like it made sense all he said though... I may have her another day, week, month, year... I'll try .... He also said 40 was average age so he was amazed she was still alive with all that damage to her arteries and heart. Maybe they live longer under the best circumstances but he said 40 was average.

Hi Guys! Thank you for your kind words. Yes, it is Dr. Attila Molnar. I was ready to not like him and find another vet but I liked him a lot! I had a fair amount of feeling majorly guilty. It is true that Americans are a very unhealthy nation as a whole with obesity, fast food, etc. etc. Then we feed our pets similarly...too much and not the right things. We think we are giving them and ourselves "treats". He didn't say much about the corn bread deal except to ask me what is corn... and corn bread. He just said it is not that good for them and some of what we see on the internet is "garbage". I'm sure it's not awful like too much meat, etc. etc. He was going on the fact that those pellets are balanced to their needs. He feeds his mostly just pellets but gives them fresh veggies and berries as treats. Corn is pretty much starch and high sugar. Plus not sure if there is hydrogenated stuff in those mixes. If you just think about how it is for us... it is similar for them. High glycemic foods, processed foods, starchy foods. He even told me not to give her grapes because they are so high sugar and make her want more. The carby sugary stuff makes us want more of that. They are same.... He said seeds were pretty much trash for them... fats and not much nutrition. He may have been stronger with me because he says it's like people... they want a pill but don't want to change the unhealthy behavior. She hasn't flown in years.... so sat around eating unhealthy food like a lot of folks. I am sensitive to her wants too. He said a wee bit of lean meat or fish now and then when she is for the most part on pellet diet is fine. Green veggies and green leafy veggies except not spinach. Berries are the best. I showed him the article I noted above from the get go when he acted like there is nothing we can do. So, he realized that if there was something I could try that I wanted to.... The med he is putting her on is similar but "better" per him. There is little empirical data on the use of these drugs with birds. He has done it before. When I asked if those birds improved he said yes but since there is not much data, can't be sure if it was the meds or they just improved. The meds won't take away her damage but hopefully will slow it down. The calcium, omega fatty acids and the meds. Hubby has to give them to her 2xz a day by mouth... oh fun. She is not super great with hand training but if anyone can do it my husband can as she loves him mostly. A bunch of big birds were coming in as I was leaving so I think he is well respected. Betty the Parrot Lady on another vet in Hawthorne recommended that other vet but when I told her who I went to she said I could not go wrong with him either. So now I know of 3 well respected Avian vets in L.A. He was personal friends with that Australian wild animal tv guy that died from the manta ray... Sorry brain cut out so can't think of his name... Steve...? I don't know what else to say. We are doing what we can and hope to stabilize her. she is in her travel cage. It is not very tiny. One perch toward the bottom and I folded up a big towel and covered the bottom. Boosted the bottom up so there is no where for her to fall unless she crawls up the side and thenshe will still fall on towels. I will get newspaper and still leave her a bit of towel to lay on. I think I want to take the perch out but we'll see. She still fears falling from it and doesn't rest right even though no where to fall. She doesn't realize that. Gosh I wrote so much. Sorrrrryy!!! For diet he mostly likes birds to just have the balanced pellets. He said Harrison's were harder for a lot of birds to get used to. Maybe ZuPreem tastes better...? He said they taste similar to cheerios. Guess he tasted them...LOL! Pellets, veggies and berries... For the most part. No dairy... I feel bad I didn't change her diet and just followed what my parents did... I'm sure they thought they did fine. Corn cob is biggg no no too.... Oye! G'night fellow birdbrains! Luv Ya!!! Pat I'll write more. My daughter is making her First Communion Saturday and I really need to change focus. Timing of this was difficult.

OK. I met with the avian doc today. I liked him. He said she is an older bird and has artheriosclerosis. Much like people that eat the wrong things, too much table food (meat,etc.) lack of exercise/flying, etc. has contributed to her having a slightly enlarged heart and the artery issues. He put her on oral doses of calcium, omega fatty acids and a heart medication. He said there is not a lot of studies with the heart meds but he has used it before. She could live another week, another month, a couple of years... We don't know. I asked about the baking bread thing for them and he was against it. Not just because she is ill but for birds in general. He said pellets like Harrison or ZuPreen and fresh fruits (primarily berries) and green vegetables like broccoli, kale, etc. An occasional small bit of cooked egg or lean protein like chicken. Not spinach....something about that So, I will do what I can for her. I am keeping her in a little cage and for now taking out the perch and putting in a thick terry bathmat. We just want her to rest. He also wants her to have some direct sunlight (not thru window) an hour or so a day. I will put a low perch in but I have to get one. The perch he was on he said was too big in diameter and they should be able to get most of their claw around the perch with a little space between when closed. I'm pooped and have to go get my daughter. That's it for now. I'll check back later. You guys kept me sane! Pat

Mary, I will try to find but do you have a link to the product? Thanks..Pat

Tobie didn't have a regular avian specialist since we moved here. Some vets are multi functional. I sought this current vet out when she started exhibiting problems. Til now she has acted great. I will check on that corner perch. I got a reply from an e-mail I sent to an avian specialist and her condition. If anyone is interested: --------------------------- The best Avian veterinarian I know is Dr. Walter J. Rosskopf. He is a certified Avian veterinarian and the best in the country. ------------------------------------------ I will call him and see what he has to say. Hopefully I can get copies of her records for all the work that was just done. I may have to accept this but not before I see if there are other options and the ramifications.... You guys are the best. Pat She is eating a bit and drinking a bit.... Not happy to keep moving from regular cage to travel cage but ... She is just so tired and can't sleep without jolting awake. I want to check on that corner perch but I am not sure she will use anything strange.<br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/05/08 17:38

I just found this article.. re artheriosclerosis in birds.... I wonder how I would find an avian vet in Los Angeles area that deals with this? ------ Use of Isoxsuprine for Treatment of Clinical Signs Associated With Presumptive Atherosclerosis in a Yellow-naped Amazon Parrot (Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata) Elisabeth Simone-Freilicher, DVM, Dipl ABVP (Avian) A 35-year-old yellow-naped Amazon parrot (Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata) was presented for gradually increasing inappetence, ataxia, weakness, and lethargy. Radiographic and ultrasonographic findings were strongly suggestive of atherosclerosis. Isoxsuprine, a peripheral vasodilator demonstrated to be of benefit in humans with intermittent limb pain, weakness, and lameness secondary to occlusive vascular disease, was selected for treatment. The bird's clinical signs resolved during treatment but recurred after varying periods of time when the medication was stopped intermittently. Nearly 3 years after the initial examination, the parrot was doing well on isoxsuprine therapy, with normal prehension of food with its feet and no recurrence of clinical signs. Keywords: atherosclerosis, isoxsuprine, avian, yellow-naped Amazon parrot, Amazona ochrocephala auropalliata Volume 21, Issue 3 (September 2007----------------------

Finally talked to the vet... He says Tobie has arteriosclerosis. Blockage like people get. Supposedly the x-rays show that her heart is a little enlarged as well. He says this breed often starts having heart issues at around 10 yrs old. I hadn't heard that. He also said she is pretty old... I thought the norm was around 60 or so... He says there is not much to be done. He won't operate and there aren't meds like there is for people. He wants to see her tomorrow... Wants to be sure of her calcium supplementation, etc. I don't know if I should get a second opinion or not... Just love her and try to keep her comfortable til ... So sad.... I didn't think she ate that much fatty foods but... I guess like us maybe some of it is inherited. However, she was raised with my parents who had a stroke and bi-pass between them. She ate her mix and people food. Same here and I am sure I have my share of blockage as well. She keeps wanting to sleep up hgher in her feed cup. She tips her head down into it and I think she feels more secure then on the perch even though it is low. She can't seem to fall asleep on the perch without losing her balance and startling herself awake. I emptied out the higher cups so if she really wanted to do that she wouldn't be breathing in anything from the food. She has food and water in the bottom of the cage. She seems to crawl around the sides of the cage ok as she uses her strong leg and her beak. I wil have to take it a day at a time. If you or anyone knows of other birds being treated for arteriosclerosis or heart issues can you let me know? Thanks. Off we go to the vet in Calabasas tomorrow... Pat

ooh...great ideas. Still waiting for vet to call back. I am thinking it won't happen today.. bummer... for lack of posting a more colorful word.. LOL!

I came upon this site...don't know if it is good or not. Did have one recipe similar to the previous post on birdy cornbread.....and other recipes... http://www.thelaughingparrot.com/RECIPES.html

trying to trick her into eatins something with a little nutrition. I crumbled up a cheez-it cracker and mixed in baby food. I know not great but I just want her to eat a little. Seems to be working a bit... I'll let you know what happens...Hopefully get some answers or reply today....She ate a bit of egg and a bit of grape today. Threw out the parsley and wouldn't eat cantalope. I know this is making me nuts.... Gotta walk away for a bit.<br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/05/08 00:03

Thanks... I have. She is in a room that is between 82 & 85. Getting the runaround from the vet's office. Relief vet yesterday said to be sure to talk to avian vet today. So I left a message this morning. It's after 2 and still no call. So I call back and the girls says he is not in today. I tell her what other vets says and then she says "oh wait a minute I think he just walked in..." Yeah right. He is not seeing patients today but told we could talk to him re the tests, etc. So she puts me on hold and then comes back and says he is on the phone. I tell her I have a seriously ill bird that is getting worse. She shows no empathy...says she can't just get him off the phone and says she will give him the messsage. I wish I felt that someone with so little empathy would really relay the urgency of the messsage. My husband says if they don't call within 1/2 hr he will try. I am getting really strung out that we are doing nothing. She can't even sleep as her whole body gets more and more limp until she jolts herself awake.... I just want somebody to do something. Thank you for letting me vent! Pat

You guys are the best. thank you for understanding.

She freaks out with anything strange in her cage. I have tried new branchy perch, etc.in the past. Today I tried layers of paper towel in lieu of newspaper because I didnt' have newspaper and she wouldn't have it. She just growled and cowered in the corner and jabbed at it with her beak like she wanted to bite it. Her perch is so low that she won't fall from it unless she just plain falls over. Her falls have been from perch mostly. She was so stressed out, poked and prodded yesterday that I just hate to upset her too much today. Do you all keep your birds in 85 degree rooms? I have never heard that... Vet said birds need to be warm especially now that she is older. She wants to sleep but when I watch her and she drifts off she wobbles and wakes herself up. Poor thing. Has anyone here had a Grey til old age like 37 or older? Vet will call later.... hard to wait. I feel so helpless and neurotic... sorry. Pat

Is a neurological problem a result of somthing that was done or not done. I always seem to try to find reason to blame myself. It seems I have been doing a number of things wrong.... her diet, corn cob....

Well, I guess she was traumatized and worn out yesterday. She ate a little when she got home. What she grabbed right out of my hand was pasta with a little sauce on it. I want her to eat better but.... I scrambled her a little egg and she ate some of that. She loves egg but from what I read she should not have too much protein. Oye! I love the cornbread idea and think I will try that. I tried baby food last night. Tiny chunks of carrot in it. Wouldn't you know she spit those out! What appears to be the biggie with her health problem is she is having trouble with balance and her right foot doesn't grip properly. They said it may be neurological. I don't know if she can get better with an antibiotic or what. The vet urged us to bring her in yesterday but she didn't see the avian vet. He is back today. They did, however, run blood work and take extra for more tests if he wants them. They also did exrays and said some of her organs may be enlarged. I will wait to confirm that with the avian vet. Her calcium was fine and although they suspected maybe gout, she did not show the uric levels that is common with that. She is in her normal big cage. I don't have a sleep cage. I have a little one that I got just in case of emergency or to take her to the vet but it doesn't have a grate at the bottom. Just a plastic bottom. What do you all use corn cob on the bottom or what? I did come in to the room earlier and was upset that she had climbed half way up her cage and was holding on to what is normally the cupholder. I am so afraid she will fall. I tried to put layers of paper towel in the bottom of the cage but she hates it and gets upset. My husband thinks she won't fall from the side as she is holding on with her beak and her good foot. it seems it is when she is asleep or just loses her balance on the perch that she falls. That may be injuring her too. I feel like I am fussing over her too much and I should let her be. The perch is low. She can't fall off and get hurt. I had to put her in a small room with a space heater and get the room to 85 degrees. That's what they said to do. I'll keep you posted but if anyone has had any similar experience or any input, I would greatly appreciate it. I am big time stressing... barely slept. Thankful that you are here for me. Pat

Right now I am really scared. I realize they had to do a lot of diagnostics on her but since she went there (late morning today) she has not ate or drank and just sleeps. No talking, whistling...not much movement. She is limping on one foot which she was not before. I have a call in to the vet.... Has anyone out there been through any of this? Hopefully I just need to be patient and let her recover.... I just hope they didn't make things worse... Sorry to be freaking out....

OK... I have posted that my 37 yr old (inherited Grey) has been falling lately. I thought it might be her talons so had them trimmed. We also replaced her perch. Still falls. Seems to be more when she is asleep. Well she went to avian vet today and they are running the gamut of tests. She had exrays, they took a culture as her nasal passages seem enflamed and they did blood work. Some bloodwork came right back other we will have to wait. Her calcium is in the normal range. They mentioned gout could cause it (too much protein) but there was no uric acid build up in test. Her diet isn't great. She is older and set in her ways and unfortunately wants to eat what she has always eaten. I have gotten her a better mix and she doesn't eat it. Mostly she will eat seeds and people food. Often I give her veggies or fruit and she throws it down. Uggh! They said she should be kept warmer at around 85 degrees. I am trying to figure out how to do that in the house in Southern CA with the a/c. I don't keep it cold...around 78 degrees but it's not 85. I can put her outside more but it does get too hot as well. Plus she wouldn't be around us as much. They mentioned a space heater but she is in a huge room with kitchen and family room. We did not see the actual avian vet we wanted to. We saw a relief vet. They did an exam, the culture, exrays, blood work and will confer with the avian vet Thursday. She may go back. At least they got the preliminary stuff going. They didn't think I should wait til Thursday so that's why we went today. She has done some sleeping with her head in her feed cup or in the corner of the bottom of her cage so I think she could be getting dust, poopie odors, etc. that can enflame her nasal passages. They said to put newspaper on the bottom of her cage to cushion her fall and make her perches lower. If I put newspaper in there she will tear it to bits and make a horrible mess. Can you think of any other options? I use corn cob on the bottom (grate between her and the corn cob) because that is what my parents did for her. What do you use? What else do you recommend to cushion a fall and not get a mess with feces, etc. ?Towel loops are bad... Any ideas for how to gradually improve her diet? They said one of her claws doesn't seem to work as well as the other. She could have neurological problem....Might be fixed with antibiotic. Anyway, it's all in the air at this point til Thursday. Yes, I am stressed with the waiting and putting her through all this.. Where should I be posting instead of "welcome"?

when/why do they need a new perch? What size or type is best. Hers is a branch like one that came with the cage over 5 yrs ago.... Does she need a new one? She has picked at it but it doesn't have any big holes or anything. Wonder if it is too smooth? I am looking for all sorts of reasons but will go to vet too. Some folks recommend a nutrition supplement. She was spoiled to people food and just a seed mix that you can buy anywhere. I tried giving her a better mix from bird store but she won't eat it. Is there a supplement I could mix into something? She eats her seed mix and beef, chicken or fish, cheese (a little cottage cheese or small piece of cheese), potatoes and some veggies. Small quantity of people food mostly when we are eating. Sometimes I give her some Cheerios or Kashi cereal. Just a few little pieces mixed in. She's not big on fruits and veggies and will throw them down.... I didn't spoil her like this... I inherited her. Now I want her to eat but maybe get some more nutrients into her.

No this is not something new. It has just become more often since the nail trim. They only trimmed a little and said come back in two weeks. Said her nails were bad. Reason I took her for the nail trim is I thought that was why she was falling once in a while. Often when she slept. But now not just while sleeping. I don't think she can right herself but I will wait and see where she can't see me. This other vet came on the recommendation of a local bird store that seems decent. I made a vet appt. but can't get her in til this coming Friday. It is in Calabasas (Dr. Molnar) which is a bit of a hike for us. Anyone heard of them? She's worth it and more..... I just think maybe we should make sure there are no other issues than her talons. Check her calcium and see whatever else they suggest. I saw a posting about some surgical/wound type tape to wrap their perch with but if she ate it would it make her sick? Thank you. Pat Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/05/03 21:28<br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/05/03 21:30

Hello. I have posted before but not too much. I would like to find an Avian vet in a reasonable proximity to where I live. I an in Norhtern L.A. County. I don't mind driving a bit. My 37 yr old Grey that I inherited from my Dad is falling a lot! Several times a day she ends up hanging upside down from her perch hanging on with her beak and talons. If we are here we go over and put our hand on her back and help her get back up. We are not always there! I had her nails trimmed last weekend but they did not take too much off. They said they were bad and that we should bring her back in 2 wks after the vein recedes a bit. Maybe the nail trim is making her fall more than usual. I don't know. Sometimes she does it when she is asleep but not always. Is she old? Someone told me the other day that Greys really only live to around 40. I thought it was much older. Is this behavior typical with old age? I am stressing out about this big time! Pat

Thank you. I did look at her nails and they are curved a lot! When she walks on the bottom of her cage, they hook on the grate. I will get her checked out by a vet. I would prefer one just for birds. For now, I found a reputable bird store near me that does grooming. I will check them out. I talked to them about how the previous vet cut them too short. They said they would show me the length they should be... She may have to get used to the new length. I hope not. I will watch to see if she is still having problems. I think previous poster was right... her talons aren't doing what they are supposed to when she is alseep on her perch. She could never walk on a flat surface they curl under so much.... I looked closely after reading here and when folks said to take a picture of them.... Thanks!!! She is pretty! I would love to hear from others who have had a Grey for a long long time and get some info about how they age...what to expect... This site is wonderful!! I am glad I happened upon it. Jo

Where can I find a place that will clip the talons? I have not had them done in 4 yrs! Vet that does birds too but all animals will charge $78.50!!! I can't afford that right now. HELP I am in So. CA. Plus she will be difficult about it sand bite who is trying to do it.... Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/01/31 00:58<br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/01/31 00:58

Where can I just get her talons clipped. I checked local avian vet and it will cost me $78.50. I adore Tobie but hubby and I are both in temp jobs at the moment.... They require an exam for $56.50 and $22. for the talon trimming. They are a vet that also does birds.. not just avian vet.... HELP!

Talons: <br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/01/30 23:36

Here are some pics... I hope they work. Not sure if I have to resize them.... Tobie! <br><br>Post edited by: Jopalis, at: 2008/01/30 23:33