matt314159

I say whenever you're in a position where you can rule out a possible problem, go ahead. I mean it won't hurt to be on the safe side, right? Maybe convince your s.o. to stop smoking as well, it will be good for you humans too!

oh and somebody mentioned craigslist...I understand the concerns about it, but at the same time, you could be saving a bird from a horrible life with an owner who doesn't want it (and probably doesn't know how to take care of it properly)....so if you're in the right situation, it could be a way to "rescue" a bird, if you will. So many people get a bird like this because they think it's cool and then don't take care of it, neglect it, get angry when it screams, etcetera. I got maggie (the Epilleptic TAG mentioned above) on there...when I got to their house, she was in a cage smaller than her current travel cage, outside on a patio/carport, it was 90 degrees out, her cage had a pile of poop a couple inches high underneath where she sat, it was sad to see her like that. If I could do it over again, I would in a heartbeat....though the best thing to do would have been to have bloodwork done to rule out disease...instead i just kept her quarantined at my grandparents house for a few months until i was reasonably sure she was fine....) We only started noticing the seizures about a month ago, and other than those, she is in fine health, and sweet as can be. I paid $350 to get her out of there, but price wasn't really my concern.

So very sorry to hear about the loss of your baby, that is so incredibly sad, and thanks for posting the message, it is indeed very important. I had my education on hypocalcemia when I was reading up about my TAG's seizures (only last a few minutes)...the blood-tests ruled out hypocalcemia, and the vet thinks it's idiopathic epilepsy. One thing I got from all the sources though is they need more than just calcium in their diet. In order to metabolize the calcium right, they need Vitamin D3 which they can usually only get if they're a) on a pelleted diet, or b) exposed to the rays of the sun for a couple hours a day. Even if they're in a sunny area by a window, the windows are treated and filter the light-rays they need. In that case you'd have to give them exposure to full-spectrum lighting. I say all this because I think it's important to understand it needs to be more than just calcium in their diet, but several factors all working together to give them maximum health.

What exciting news! I know it sucks getting bad news from the vet, glad to hear for once it's good news!!!!! I'm sure you'll appreciate what you have with your baby all the more now that you have been through such an ordeal together. With something like this, do you continue to do follow-up tests to be on the safe side, or is Noodles (cute name by the way!) good to go from here?

Thanks...you're right it does need padding, but for me that almost goes without saying, because we have padded ponti's cage for the last three years. I guess that seemed so "normal" to me I forgot to mention it. Though you gave me the brilliant idea of putting paper on top of that to reduce the laundry loads! We used to just change the towels out every couple of days and wash them. We even had to take our dryer apart a few months ago because enough seeds had gotten into places wher they shouldn't and got things jammed up. How there remained seeds in the towels AFTER being shaken out, and AFTER being WASHED, I'll never know, but such was the case. Our washer seems to be handling the towels much better than our dryer. Maggie is about the sweetest parrot I've ever met. The only time she will bite me is when I've got ponti on me too, because she's jealous....Other than that, she has NEVER bitten me, even, for instance, at the vet friday when I had to help hold her still, pinned upside down on the examination table screaming when the Dr. drew blood from under her wing...she never bit me...screamed bloody murder, but didn't bite. It amazes me. In fact, if this were an episode of "House, M.D. - Avian Edition" I'd see the lack of biting to be a symptom and not just the fact that she's a sweet bird...<br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/02/01 22:35

one of maggie's claws is kind of just a little stub. doesn't stop her from swingig upside down from the top of her cage by one foot when she plays with her hanging toys

I think that's normal, ponti's beak flakes a little sometimes, but she usually rubs it off on her own as shes cleaning her beak. Either that or my bird's got problems too!

here are the results, the fax just came through. he said the CPK levels were probably as a result of the seizures, but that everything else was close enough to normal to be confident it wasn't the cause of any seizures. I didn't ask about the tums, decided to just drop that one altogether, and I didn't remember to ask about the temperature greys should be at...71-72 just seems kind of on the low side of things. 90% of the time in the summer, our house is between 75 and 78 degrees. Quite frankly, living in the desert of southern california, that's about all we can afford, 71 would cost a fortune. I think I do plan on getting a couple full spectrum lights, too. Also, I think maybe I should look at getting maggie a new cage, her current one is rather on the tall and narrow side, but I'm thinking if I can find something wider and shorter that might help her not have so far to fall if/when she has more seizures...I can jsut see her having one while she's hanging upside down playing with a toy and landing on her head... I think I might also start taking maggie to bed in her travel cage and into the spare bedroom to sleep at night along with ponti (who already sleeps in her own travel cage because she falls a lot due to her bad foot). Ponti loves the routine, but if it doesn't freak maggie out to much, I might try to ease her into it as well. Usually somebody's up with the tv on in the living room until well past midnight, with various lights on, and even though we cover her cage, I think her sleep would be much healthier if she can get a nice quiet dark place to sleep like ponti does. Sorry if I ever came across as a little grumpy/contrary, processing the information that my baby might have epilepsy is kind of upsetting. I just want to do everything in my power to do right by maggie, she deserves it. Such a sweet little baby. She loves getting hugs...when I take her out of her cage, I bring her close to my chest, and put my hand gently on her back and snuggle my face down to her, and she says, in the sweetest cooing little voice, "ohhhhh"... Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/02/01 01:46<br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/02/01 01:56

Okay just talked to the Doc, you're right, he recommended the same thing as you, hard cheddar cheese, though he still didn't outright say the other stuff was harmful... but anyway, he said all the levels look relatively normal, he doesn't think it's hypocalcemia, and he's leaning toward idiopathic epilepsy. Since I didn't write any of the values down (he rattled them off pretty quickly, I don't have them at the moment, but I did call back and ask the receptionist to fax me the results, which I'll post here as soon as I can. He said it's up to me, but he'll get the rest of the results back, in a couple weeks, but he would recommend some phenobarbitol (spelling) for anti-seizure purposes, to suppress symptoms. I'll post back when i have more informaiton.

this article, was the main one, which had the quote from my last post. It seemed very authoritative, and was targeted directly at seizures in African Greys, it wasn't generic at all. Digging a little further into the cottage cheese thing, from a couple of quick searches, it looks like it provides more protein than calcium...I don't think I've come across anything that says it's harmful if given in small amounts. Is it? ...I'll run these questions by Dr. Sig, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to do anything irresponsible. As I have time i'll be searching as much as possible, but if there are any threads you remember offhand that discuss stuff like white dairy, those would be appreciated. ...for an equatorial bird? We've kept our house in the 75-80 degree range during the summer for the three years we've had ponti and she doesn't mind a bit. Neither does maggie, for that matter, no excessive molting, or anything like that. Most everything I've read is that they'll pretty much adapt. If you're comfortable, they'll be alright too.<br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/01/31 23:43

Thanks Dave, The doctor did mention idiopathic epilepsy, but he wanted to rule out any other causes first, otherwise you're simply masking a symptom to a potentially bigger problem, so he's done his due dilligence in that regard. I called today about the blood panel, and the receptionist said the first round of results are in, took my number, and said the doctor would call me back to go over them. Are you sure about the cheese and cottage cheese? Several guides I've read mention those things specifically by name. This is the problem I run into , is how do I know what information to trust on the internet. from the exoticpetvet article I linked to in the first post: If it's not going to do any HARM, i'll keep giving it to them, if it is bad for them, then I'll stop... They're not in a hot room or anything, I'd say even on a hot day in the summer we never let it get hotter than 80 degrees in the house, usually 75 or so...during the winter, around 70-71 degrees. the fruit is more or less a treat for them, I'd say their fruit and veggie bowls consist of 2/3 veggies, and 1/3 fruit, but I can cut back on the fruit portion if that's still too much. Tortilla, tht kind of thing, is just another occasional treat, if they see me eating a burrito, I'll tear off a bit of tortilla (the size of a quarter maybe) and pass it through the cage, which they get all excited about. In a bit when I get back home I'll post a picture of he seed mix for review too, I think it's a healthy blend but I"m no expert. I think it also has some pellets in it, but it's not a high percentage. Anyway tha's it for now, and again and as always, thanks!

Yeah judy come to think of it, both my greys love oatmeal and scrambled eggs, so that could be a way to slip it in to them. I don't usually give them a whole dish of it or anything, usually it mostly is whatever we're eating at the time, if we're having eggs, I'll give them each a tablespoon full or so, same with oatmeal. I wonder if I should be giving them bigger helpings of that kind of stuff. They go nuts over cooked pasta, I take a little plate and put 10 or 12 noodles on each one before we mix the sauce in, and they go bananas. That might be an option too. The apple juice is also a great idea to get them used to eating the pellets. THey always say when there's a will there's a way, i'm just afraid my greys' wills are stronger than mine!

wow, thanks all for the kind words and helpful tips and hints, that means a lot to me. will consider trying to get maggie onto a pelleted diet (and maybe ponti too, if she'll cooperate this time around)...when we originally got ponti, we tried to get her onto pellets, but after a couple months, just gave up. No matter how we blended it with her current food and tried to trick her into accidentally eating the pellets, she just constantly ate around them. When we got maggie, we just put her on the same diet as ponti. Any comments one way or another on the tums supplementation idea? I have seen that referenced in a few of the guides (what did they say, 1/2 tab, every other day at most, something like that), but then another bird forum that came up in a google search, the members took up torches and mobbed up against the person who asked the question, as if that was just the stupidest thing they'd ever heard. So I guess the CFL idea is out, I was thinking that while it might be less output, they'd be exposed to it for 5-6 hours per evening, so it might do some good, but if it won't do anything, then I won't bother with that. What do you recommend if i want to go with an off-the-shelf full spectrum light? Will that ott light that lisa mentioned be the best or should I look at something else? And I guess I have to just put it right by their cage, pointed directly in on them? let's see, I guess those are my only continuing questions right now, I really appreciate all the responses...I checked this thread this morning thinking maybe ONE of you would have replied~!

Sorry for the triple-posting, I hope y'all don't mind... So from this I'm getting the feeling I should also get the birds a full-spectrum lamp to go by their cages for a few hours a day, to help with D3 absorption which helps with calcium absorption....this is really independent of the seizures in question, but a factor for their overall health and well-being...the living room is well-lit, but the windows I take it block both the UVA and UVB rays because they're probalby treated. Any ideas as to a specific model or style of lamp I should get? Any other things I should be thinking about? I feel like by this time I might already have my bases covered, I'd just like to get second, third, and fourth opinions, and see what everyone's advice is. **edit..it just dawened on my that they probably make full-spectrum CFL light bulbs, I will ahve to look into that. Maybe we can just swap out the bulbs in the two lamps in the living room, so they can get a good dose every evening...<br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/01/31 12:18

Also, here's an informative read that I just found here: That seemed to do a good job of putting into laymen's terms what the first link to the exoticpetvet webpage was trying to explain. I thought I would post it here so as to 1) possibly become a reference to others who happen by here, and 2) have somebody "in the know" glance over it and make sure there's nothing stupid in there that I don't know about. But it seemed to be well-articulated and written by someone with good knowledge of this problem.<br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/01/31 11:44

Hey, everyone...I hate to be one of those 'friends' who abandons you for long periods of time and then comes back only when they need something, but.... My 10 year old TAG Maggie, who we adopted back in july, has had three seizures in the last month. We caught the tail end of the first one, thought she might have just fallen and stunned herself...the second seizure a week to 10 days later, we realized what the first one must have been, and decided to take her to the vet as soon as I had a day off, and three days later she had the third seizure. here's a direct copy and paste of the notes I typed out (for myself, to help me remember) to describe to the avian vet after the second seizure I did find this link indicating there's a good chance it's low calcium: http://www.exoticpetvet.net/avian/seizures.html While I feel her diet is adequate (we have a 3 year old CAG on the same regimen and she's fine), I wouldn't rule it out. She eats a seed mix that's the "house blend" of Bracken's Bird Farm in Redlands, CA (for any of you locals)...when we first got Ponti (our CAG) back in 2006, that was what was recommended if we didn't want to go the pellet route. In addition, at least three times a week they each get a bowl of fresh fruits and veggies, including just about everything under the sun...brocoli, carrots, boc choi (probably slaughtered the spelling on that) corn, sweet potato (maggie's favorite), to name just a few, and different types of fruit, usually a slice of apple, couple of strawberry halves, kiwi, grapes, etcetera. Usually a higher proportion of veggies than fruits though. Additionally we give them cooked pasta, non-salted crackers, little bits of this and that (whatever we're eating in front of them...bread, tortilla, that sort of thing). Maggie also loves string cheese and chicken (kind of feel like I'm in Silence of the Fowl when I give her that though) So that's the diet... Anyway today I took her to Dr. Sigdestad at loma linda animal hospital, who has served us well in the past. He came highly recommended from Bracken's bird farm, as he is the vet who attends to all their birds, as well as birds from some of the local chain pet stores, according to the clerk at Bracken's. We've been happy with him, he doesn't have the best bedside manner, but, quite frankly I am not paying him to talk baby talk to my animals. But I digress. Dr. Sig gave me the choice of two blood panels, a simple panel for $99 that he said would tell me "90% of everything you need to know", and a complete panel that checks for a laundry list of diseases, includes a stool sample, the works...for $299. Since I got maggie from a home that was neglectful and uncaring at best, abusive at worst (her owner died and so the owner's roommate put her on craigslist for $350...and kept her cage outside on their back porch day and night, in July in southern california, where temps get to 100+ during the day, in the shade...but again I digress) Since I did not know maggie's history when I got her, other than that she's ten years old, I decided it wouldn't hurt to do the full panel, to be on the safe side. he said the initial results (the equivalent of the first $99 workup) would be available around noon tomorrow, to call in and have them go over that with me, and in a couple weeks they'll get the advanced panel back from the lab...I guess they do it through the mail. Is anybody still following this post, I just realized I'm writing a novel here, but I want to be as thorough as possible.... At any rate, i guess that's abuot as detailed a description of the situation as I can get right now. Is there anything else I should be doing at this point? I've been giving her extra calcium-enriched foods, like string-cheese, cottage cheese, a cuddlebone, that she doesn't seem particularly fond of...brocoli...which again, she usually pitches out of her food dish first thing. I also padded her cage with towels, just like I do with Ponti (who has a bad foot who is exceptionally uncoordinated, and tends to fall a lot). So we're up from two laundry loads of towels per week to three now. Anything else? Any advice? The first link I posted said not to let a blood panel showing sufficient calcium rule out hypocalcemia, because the levels tend to fluctuate with their circadian rhythm, which to me almost seems to make sense considering all three seizures (that we've caught...have there been more that we didn't catch?) happened late evening, between 10pm and 12am... If you've made it this far, I owe you a debt of gratitude, if you've got any suggestions for me, I'm all ears, and you have my many thanks in advance. here's a picture of maggie. I've only had her for six months and I don't know what i'd do without her! <br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2009/01/31 11:12

for those of you who follow ponti's videos on youtube, here's a new one I just uploaded tonight after several months of being lazy. This is her "snuggle time"... Every night for about an hour, Ponti and I have "snuggle time" before we put her to bed. Most of the time she plays on her toybox with me, and she plays a couple of her favorite games, some of which include, "toss all her toys out of her toybox as far away as possible all over the ground", "Back and forth toy toss with matt", "Learn a new trick" (this week's trick is to flap her wings and wave hi to you...she's getting better at it....she also has learned to blow her nose and poop on a paper towel)...let's see, what other games...there's "beg for whatever food matt is eating", there's "boss the dogs around", and "tear up the plastic bottle caps". There's also, "poop on matt's leg and gross him out" (I usually say "ewww!" when she does it, which is exactly the reaction she wants, I know!), and many others. oh and don't worry when you hear my dad say "maggie want a bath?" in the background, we wouldn't give them a bath at night, he was talking about something ponti had said earlier in the day. I just know if I were watching a video and I heard someone talking about giving their bird a bath at night i'd probably get after them, so i thought i'd head off any possible comments in that regard

How are you doing PThizzilini? Any updates? I hope you guys are okay, that's got to be so hard. I still get upset when I see this thread. RIP Baby Caesar!

I agree that if she's comfortable where she is, let her stay there until she feels comfortable sleeping elsewhere. Ponti actually goes in her "nite nite" cage (travel cage) and goes into the spare bedroom at night. The cage has a towel on the floor and a rope perch that is about an inch off the ground. Sometimes she sleeps on the perch, sometimes she sleeps on her belly, face down on the towel. With her bad foot she sometimes falls off her perch when she sleeps.

Hmm, that's interesting. The only color ponti has turned is red when she got her toenails trimmed. She was so upset she was panting and her face flushed. The white mask was pink!

Ponti has been getting better with her biting lately. What I've found that works with ponti is that if she's biting my finger, I slip my finger out of her mouth and grab her uper beak between my thumb and forefinger and tell her "no bite". Immediately following that I put her in her cage and ignore her for 15-20 minutes. While I've found that positive reinforcement is usually best with these guys, but as long as the response is immediate, the scolding of holding her beak and telling her "no bite" seems to make her understand that it's a negative reaction. But we also try to encourage alternative good behavior. Like letting me scratch her head, pet her, touch her beak, stepping up and down, etcetera, getting her in the habit of associating hands with love and fun, but good fun and not biting! We had ponti for two years before we got Maggie, and I thought with ponti that biting was just par for the course. Contrast that to maggie, who has NEVER bitten me even when I had to grab her out of her travel cage on the first day we brought her home. So we've been working more on getting ponti trained lately.

I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your baby Just the thought of something like that happening to my greys (like you, I also have a Timneh and a Congo) breaks my heart. Our thoughts/prayers are with you. Keep us updated and know we're here to help however we can, if not just to share the burden of grief a little bit.<br><br>Post edited by: matt314159, at: 2008/09/12 23:45

Lyric wrote: Thanks! Ponti's DNA sexed as a female, but we have not done maggie yet, though we plan to. We bought her at 10 years old and we're just going off her name and the fact that she says she's a good girl We've kind of got our suspicious that she might be a he, so we're going to do the DNA test when we get a chance. Maggie's always throwing up seeds in my hand, I don't know if that leads to one way or the other.

Thanks for the kind words! Maggie is already a part of our family. We've had her almost 2 months now and she fits right in. I will have to take a picture of her old cage, it was totally inadequate for her, and her old caretaker kept maggie outside under their carport, no matter how hot or cold it got outside. (we live in Southern California so it was mostly heat to worry about). I thought maggie was going to be a "rescue bird" where it would take me anywhere from six months to a number of years to get her to trust people, but she took right too me, like she knew I was her savior or soemthing. She loves to give me gentle kisses on my face, and loves being handled! She has NEVER bitten ANYONE so far, NOT EVEN ONCE! To me, that's almost abnormal, compared to spoiled ponti, who bites me as a matter of routine because she thinks its funny (we're working on that though)

Some more pictures of maggie from today. How she climbs up that tall toy holder thing on the top of her cage, I don't understand but she climbs right up the skinny little pole, that is her favorite roost it seems! She likes being as high as possible.