Arguments for & against clipping

[Kaedyn]

Ha! Ha! Actually, I was using one of those tiny laptops and just viewing this thread when all of a sudden my fingers hit some key on the left side (LEFT SIDE!) of the keyboard and the next thing I see is, thank you for your post!

 

I figured the only way I could recover was to quickly write something to fill in the missing space by editing the post. I guess I wasn't fast enough? B)

[judygram]

You have to move pretty fast to beat me to the punch, I noticed that post right quickly, a blank post stands out like a sore thumb but crap happens but at least you finally got what you wanted posted.

 

I am sort of fighting the same battle with Josey right now, she doesn't have a full set of flights and she either breaks it or she chews it off but you have given me some great ideas. I really want her to be able to fly and soar thru the house but she can't until she gets all her flights.

[Janfromboone]

Tobie was clipped when I bought him at 3.5 mos old. I had a fear of him flying out a door and away. So I didn't mind, he didn't seem to mind(not knowing any better) and I was pretty sure I would keep him clipped because we were all happy and everything was going fine. Then he began to molt. With the molt he started chewing off his new longer flight feathers. The only problem was that he didn't do a conservative clip like he had before. He cut them off very very short and now he would drop like a stone and I know he was getting bumps and bruises. Once he really injured his beak and it bled and scared me to death. I don't know if the chewing off of feathers was because he was clipped before he molted, but it seemed that way to me. He hasn't gone through another molt yet, but he still chews off the occasional flight feather - though his wings look better and he doesn't drop like a stone any more. I could never bring myself to clip those precious flight feathers now. I guess I'm a convert.

[Jane08]

It's great to hear all the stories of people who have clipped their birds. I really don't think poeple see the dangers in clipping. All they see is how it will fix the problem they have, but they don't understand the other problems it causes. They also think how hard a flighted bird must be to handle with all the dangers, flying into windows, places where they might get hurt.

 

The thing is this is temporary with a flighted bird, they learn so quickly of how to handle themselves in trcky situations as they have incredible control over their bodies. I never worry about our 2, yes they have accidents, but they are in control of it. Many times I have watched Rangi fall from places and just before he hits the ground he spins and flies off.

 

Kea is an amazing flier and her body control blows me away sometimes when I am sure she is going to crash but she manoeuvre herself out of dangerous situations.

[Mollysmum]

Mali came to us at 6 months and he was clipped and he hadn't been fledged. He also had no tail at all. Once we got him home after about a month he gre a flight feather and we noticed he had a couple of tail feathers coming through. The feathers were then chewed off by Mali.

He then started on his neck and the top of his wings.

We took him to the avian vet and she said that because he has been clipped so young it has had a effect on him as he thinks because he can fly that he feathers are useless and therefore he is chewing them off.

After a few months of treatments and three different collars and one operation his flights and tail are now growing back.

I am not going to clip him his wings because a) he is a bird flying is in his DNA and b) becasue of the detrimental effect it has had on his wellbeing. it breaks my heart when he is sat on top of his cage and he wants to fly to me and he can so he gets frustrated and then tries to attack his feathers but now he attacks hes collar instead

 

I am going to harness train him so we can take him outside and take extra precautions to make sure our home is safe for him when he fully flighted and fledged

[Joolesgreyuk]

Well it seems this thread has opened up a can of worms so to speak :laugh: Good debates are always a good thing and it does look like clipping has a psychological effect on the bird and I've lost count of how many replies (from those who have had their birds clipped whether not bt choice) contain the words "it breaks my heart to see my bid try to fly"

 

Thanks everyone for your honest replies.

[danmcq]

Great posts Kaedyn and others that have experienced having a clipped Grey. :-)

 

It is encouraging to see how much hard work, time and effort into to helping your Greys grow those primaries out once again. It is a long process in the more severe clips as Kaedyn noted, but not insurmountable.

 

It is also good to read the rational side of why some my have or are considering the POSSIBILITY of why they may need to clip their Greys.

 

One thing to note on the reasoning that if strangers, kids or others will be running in and out of doors, sliding glass doors etc. and you don't want your grey to be able to fly away....The answer is you Cage your Grey during those times and events. Even if your Grey is not flighted, there are times that for your Greys and guests safety, you need to cage your Grey.

 

It really good to see how this has not even turned into a debate, but just a friendly posting of each persons "State of Flight" and why/how that came to be.

 

Thanks everyone for all these GreYt Posts!! :-)

[Eckobird]

This is a great thread with so many good points going both ways! My boyfriend and I have decided that we don't want to clip Ecko's wings. We are harness training him and he is doing very good with it. We put him in the harness everyday, at least twice, because he goes to my moms house with me a lot. My whole family keeps telling me that I need to clip his wings, I try to convince them that clipping is not the right thing to do to a bird. But now that this post is here I think I am going to have them read it because it talks about every reason why I don't want him clipped. I really enjoy watching him fly and I know he does too. He gets so excited when he has landed, its like he is proud of himself.

[Raposa]

Thanks, Dave, I will try those clingie things for the windows

 

And Dan, yes, the bird does need to stay caged sometimes for safety's sake. The problem in my house was that it was not predictable WHEN the doors and windows would be unsafely open. There are people in and out of my house all the time because of my mom's caregiving needs - caregiveers, nurses, therapists, etc. It could be different times each day, and if I kept her caged enough to protect her she would be in her cage all the time, and that I will not do.

 

I have to say it took some courage to speak up about having had Jenna clipped, since I know it is not a popular decision here ~smiles~ Heck, it was not even a popular decision with ME, but I felt it was necessary at the time. I appreciate not being slammed for it.<br><br>Post edited by: Raposa, at: 2009/05/01 18:38

[Tycos_mom]

I Know what its like to have broken blood feathers and no other feathers for support when Tyco was growing her new flights she broke so many I thought for sure she would never have all her flights it has taken almost 2 years and allot of care to get them all in she was deprived a little from doing certain things for awhile like with her boing she loves it but she used to like to unhook it from the ceiling and the boing would crash to the ground along with her. so until I found a way to fix it she was not allowed to have it now she can't do that anymore I changed the hook to an eye so she can play. but I don't know how many feathers she broke on that thing. I'm so glad she's finally got them all and I must say she's a very confident grey since she's had them she still doesn't like the camera but she's not afraid of much she accepts any new toy imediatly. I'm hoping she will help me teach Adaya how to be a confident Grey I'm so glad Tyco likes her so much. I'm trully blessed with all my birds getting along so well I hear about others have trouble that way. I guess I just got lucky with a bunch of social birds(butterflys)lol

[Dave007]

I'd like to say something else concerning clipping. What causes me to write is because of so many posts that concern the actual time of clipping. Some breeders are the worst offenders because they want to make it extremely comfortable by having a bird in the house. Some vets should also take the weight for this action.

IF a bird is going to be clipped, the worst time for that to occur is when the bird has just reached the total weaning stage and is ready to go home. Even though the bird is totally weaned that doesn't mean that the bird's muscles have totally developed. It doesn't mean that the bird has automatic coordination. It doesn't mean that the bird has confidence. All of these things have to be developed with a set of wings no matter how irritating or scary it may make people feel.

There's things that have to be thought out----lack of muscle strength in the breast bone area and in the wings due to the lack of wings. --Inability to build up that strength when flapping because there's no upward draft going on. That means that a young bird who has a complete set of unclipped wings creates a reverse power. When flapping, the wings create a draft that will definitely cause the bird to be lifted upward. That action also creates muscles to develop. The bird on the cage won't go anywhere. Nature has told it that it doesn't have all the tools to fly yet. Instead, the bird holds on to the bars of the cage and intensely flaps. The bird continues this constantly until nature tells it that the time has come to fly because the bird can no longer fight that upward draft because the wings are too strong.

To achieve this takes many months after it's been weaned. Furious flapping and going no where and finally the same flapping pushing the bird away. What's the difference between the unclipped and clipped bird w2ho was clipped when it was a baby? Well, that clipped bird does all the same things that the unclipped bird does but the big difference has to do with the upward draft that the flight feathers are capturing. On a clipped bird there are no flight feathers catching that draft and that causes muscles to not develop as strongly as the unclipped bird.

When the time comes for both birds to finally take off, the major difference is that the unclipped bird will fly horozontily and glide down. The clipped bird will take off and immediately fly straight down because the flight which provide the lift aren't there and have never been there. Depending upon the severity of that clip, the bird may go straight down and bounce off the floor and many of those floors are uncarpeted.

The next important action that happens is coordination--the unclipped bird can immediately practice flying and master the act of flying. That also takes a while. The clipped bird can't do this because it hasn't even learned how to fly straight and more than likely won't learn those skills until wings come in which usually takes a long time. While waiting for those wings to come in, accidents happen. The bird loses the desire to fly because all it has to look forward to is a trip to the floor. BUT, the clipped bird learns to start life without flying and many times, gets used to that life. Now finally the new set of wings are in. It's been a long time waiting because flight feathers never grow back all at the same time.

During that waiting period, many birds decide to not go through the process of learning how to fly because they still remember the trips to the floor.

So,my point is--think very carefully when someone offers to clip that baby bird after buying it.

It's very easy for a breeder to clip a baby bird's wings before shipping but understand that what's not covered in the guarantee/warranty in that well check done by a vet that's done purchasing is

1---the bird's inablity to fly

2---the bird's lack of coordination

3---the bird's lack of proper muscle power

4---what will happen to the bird when the clipped bird decides to go through the action of learning how to fly.

5---the condition of the wings as far as growing back.

6---that amount of time it will take that bird to learn how to fly.

7---any type of promise that the bird will actually learn how to fly.

 

All of these things are the responsibility of the new owner and most new owners wanna do the right thing from the get go.

 

By the time all of these potential problems are finally discovered that warranty/guarantee has long since expired but it wouldn't matter that it expired because the guarantee/warrantee never covered those things in the first place.

 

I'll bring nature into this thread again simply because parrots are wild animals just like many other birds.

While watching wild birds going through the whole learning how to fly process, that baby bird always picks a very safe area to fly to when the time comes to leave the nest and he/she repeats it over and over again until it knows it's strength can finally get it from point A to point B with no problems. The parents purposely pick out the spot to raise a clutch because nature tells the parents to do that.

 

And I'll add this PS to my post---

Sadly, many buyers aren't told that there may be headaches, frustraitons and delays and minor disapointments that go along with getting that bird. It definitely isn't the new buyer's fault. New buyers aren't mind readers.

 

Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/05/01 20:07

 

Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/05/01 20:16<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/05/01 20:21

[danmcq]

Raposa, i hope you didn't think I was signaling you out, I wasn't. :-)

 

I just wanted others to know that there are times a bird must be caged for both it's safety and the visitors. This is true whether the bird is clipped or not.

 

Great post Dave, you are so spot on with this great information!! I know it will be helpful to new bird purchasers waiting to get their baby home.

[Christina]

I think that anyone who chooses to clip for the safety of their birds such as Raposa or people with young children who can not be trusted to close the doors when necessary, do what is right for them and their birds. I couldn't imagine being a bird that got out and starved to death or froze to death. It takes a lot to make that choice and just because its made at one point in time, doesn't mean it won't change. I personally don't have any of those situations and do have fully flighted birds. Kaedyn, your story made me happy to be a member of this board. Such devotion to your grey! Karma for you! Oh, and for anyone that doesn't have stickies or lives far away from the store...you can use painters tape on any glass surface the same as a sticky. It's not a permanent solution, as it doesn't look great, but it works in a pinch and leaves no residue on the glass.

[CarolandFamily]

Wow Dave that was an awesome post! As usual you have opened my eyes and im sure alot of others with that wonderful post Karma to you my friend! Thank You once again for advising me not to clip our babies

[Janfromboone]

I agree Carolyn family. That post put me right in the birds mind and I feel as if I now understand what has been going on with Tobie so much better. Thanks again for your great insite Dave!!!

 

Post edited by: Janfromboone, at: 2009/05/02 03:30<br><br>Post edited by: Janfromboone, at: 2009/05/02 03:31

[nanmadpad]

I keep my Zimba clipped for safety reasons. I live in a very small house and there just isnt enough room to have him flying around. Zimba seems to know he cant fly and does not crash to the floor. He is not lacking in confidence at all and appears quite happy and content to play on top of his cage. My dog thinks anything that moves is to eat so he would surely chase Zimba all over the house if he were able to fly. My dog thinks Zimba is just another funny looking dog so he dont bother with him. My choice for clipping remains the same.

[karunk]

All.. I am planning to buy my CAG in the next few weeks.. Rather I have placed my deposit already and hope to bring chikki home by mid june.. I have already read quite a few books and one of them advised against clipping wings.. When I spoke to my breeder regarding that, she suggested that clipping would mean there wouldnt be any more crashes against windows, and it was better to have a bird with a clipped wing than a broken neck..

 

So I logged in to the forum hoping to get some advise and i guess i got what i wanted.. My concern though is, I have been getting a conservatory built at home which I am planning to make a play area for chikki.. but conservatory is an area made of glasses, and I am really concerned about chikki flying into the glasses.. I can get some blinds on, still, it may not be safe all the time.. I am happy to train the parrot about the windows.. but i wont be able to do that with the glass roof .. I would be happy to do the best to keep chikki from being clipped.. Any suggestions for the glass roof please??

[Mistyparrot]

karunk ,When Misty came to me at two years old he was clipped but that did not stop him trying to fly or going into the glass sliding door leading to the garden. I put stick on figures on the glass and hung net curtains so he quickly came to understand that he could not fly through. As for your glass roof I doubt your CAG would have the vertical velocity to come to any harm. Greys are smart and they soon learn what windows are. A fully flighted Grey quickly becomes expert at maneuvering and avoiding obstacles. Misty spends all his time free in the house with no problems. I keep an eye on him and take care with doors and windows. He lives mainly in our living room although he does have a cage in the rare event that he cannot be out. I am certain that a clipped bird is at much greater risk of injury from lack of flight skills than flighted. Even in a small home.

Misty is now fully flighted. He is a wonderfully confident flyer and it is his first nature as it should be. I believe that if a person thinks they are not in a position to keep a flighted Grey then they need to think very carefully if they should take on the commitment. In 99 percent of cases being able to fly is what being a bird is all about and they are safer because of it.

I think Dave has explained very well how important it is for young greys to develop their skills. It is senseless to deprive them of the ability except in the most unusual situations. I am supremely grateful that I have never had to make that choice.

 

Steve n Misty

[Tycos_mom]

I have one of those birds that is now reluctant to learn to fly. Tyco is 6yrs old and was not permited to fledge it has take months of encouragement and helping her to get her to even try even though she has all of her flight feathers again. She will now fly short distances when she wants to vist with her Amazon friend but thats about it. I have only seen her fly a greater distance twice so I know she can she just doesn't very often and when she did do it she didn't land well so mabie thats why she's reluctant. how can I teach her I'm not a bird. I keep hoping that she will learn from my other birds but so far that has not happened mabie now that I have another Grey that she has really taken a likeing too she will want to fly more because her friend flys every where with any luck Tyco will someday also.

[Dave007]

You named off the reasons correctly. Wasn't allowed to learn how to fly.

 

Another reason was wasn't capable of flying for a period of time when flying should have been allowed to develop.

 

Many birds who start the lessons of learning how to fly way past their normal age of those starting lessons may not be able to become very adept or accurate when they do start flying. Those types of things develop best when the bird is young.

"" even try even though she has all of her flight feathers again.""

So, at one point she didn't have them. Having flight feathers throughout creates an accurate coordinated flyer.

She may gain accuracy and increasing constant distance or it may remain like it is. Only time and her future confidence will tell what will happen or change.

[nanmadpad]

mistyparrot.your choice to keep your parrot flighted is your decision and keeping mine clipped is my decision,you have no right to tell someone with a clipped parrot to rethink owning one, My parrot will never be given up and he is well taken care of, He is quite well adjusted and safe. He is at no greater risk for injury then your bird. You state being able to fly is what being a bird is all about. If you sincerely believe that then you should not have it in a cage. Turn it loose to be a free bird. THATS MY OPINION:"

[TinyTimneh]

As someone with three birds, two lil guys and the TAG who hates them both I see both sides of the coin.

 

Regardless of whether or not the parrot is clipped they must of fledged properly and learned to control themselves. I also firmly believe that clipped parrots should be clipped as lightly as possible so that they do not crash to the floor.

 

My smaller birds are clipped right now because the TAG would kill them (or at least maim them) if they flew by him. I need to do it to keep them safe. When I can provide them with a screened-in seperate room I will definetly allow them to fly, but right now space is too cramped to do so.

 

That said, in terms of clipping I am a naturalist and prefer to allow parrots to be fully flighted. I believe that they should be allowed to fly if the parrot's guardian can provide the right environment of course. I believe that there is just some essential 'birdness' that all parrots have that they can only express through flight and being independent of me. I enjoy living with these creatures and seeing my grey learn to use his wings and gain a sense of confidence by gradually learning that he can go wherever he wants.

It takes extra work and training to keep a flighted bird, and a certain amount of security (in terms of the house set-up, keeping dangerous items out of reach) that some folks cannot or are not willing to provide. Some birds are very aggressive and when given that extra boost by flight can become terrors. Some folks have guests or kids constantly running in and out of doors or live with less than considerate roommates or have lots of breakables etc. I respect that they need to clip their birds, heck, in those situations I'd support it.

 

So, although flighted is my preference, if a person cannot provide the right environment to do so etc. then I advocate a gentle clip after the bird fledges and has learned to control their bodies.

[Azzie]

My 4 month old CAG is flighted, and she will remain so. I have 2 lorikeets, one of whom refuses to go back in the cage after having been out, and I am seriously considering having her clipped.

She's refusing to step up lately (mostly since the CAG arrived interestingly enough), and I cannot continue spending hours trying to get her back in the cage, especially since my attempts to do so are obviously distressing to her.

 

I personally agree with TinyTimneh's comments.

[Mistyparrot]

nanmadpad. Misty is not kept in a cage. We are fortunate that my circumstances allow this. Why do you think keeping your bird clipped is a good idea for you? This is after all a discussion for and against. You may have good reason to continue to clip your bird.

 

Steve n Misty

[Christina]

I think nanmadpad made their concerns for their grey, and their decision to clip quite clear. Just because you don't agree with them Mistyparrot, doesn't mean that they are incorrect. This is an open dialogue and pets like children are raised many different ways for many different reasons. We all do the best we can and hope they are right in the end. I personally think a room made of nothing but glass for a flighted parrot poses significant riks. I don't know about anyone else greys, but Finnigan can fly fast, and her vertical speed is just as fast as her horizontal. I would definetly recommend, visual cues on all glass surfaces.