Arguments for & against clipping

[Joolesgreyuk]

I thought I'd start a (friendly - no arguments please) debate about wing clipping.

 

I have to be against, my reasons:

1. Birds are born (hatched ;-)) to fly or they wouldn't have wings.

2. If they do (God forbid) manage to escape at least they stand a chance of survival in the wild.

From a personal point of view:

3. When Beau lands after flying he looks so proud of himself.

4. Any bird in flight is a sight to behold.

 

Please feel free to add your reasons why you are for or against.

[Tycos_mom]

I also love to see abird in flight and the areobattics they preform are so much fun to watch. I do clip a birds wings once when they come into my home if they are rescues or older birds the reason for this is to help them adjust to the other birds and them to a new flock member. I have a sunroom in my home and any new birds must learn that all those windows are solid so they don't fly into them and possibly hurt themselves or worse I have lost 2 birds like this so now everybird I have gets a training session every week to remind them the windows are solid a new bird gets this training everyday until I'm sure they know they can't fly through I take them around to every window and mirror in the house and get them to touch the glass with their beak.I call it an adventure. my baby birds I never clip.They usually arrive from the breeders clipped because for some reason most breeders clip the birds before they sell them I don't know why. Adaya will never be clipped I got her at 5 weeks old so there is no reason she has settled in very nicely with the other birds and has been taught about the windows. So I guess what I'm saying is I can understand that sometimes there are legit reasons to clip a bird but I don't beleive that it should be done forever birds where meant to fly.

 

Post edited by: Tycos_mom, at: 2009/04/30 17:53<br><br>Post edited by: Tycos_mom, at: 2009/04/30 23:22

[PrettyPax]

Mahhhvelous topic. I agree with everything you say completely. I can see why others may decide to clip, but when it comes to this I have to ally myself with the PETA types. LOL!

First and foremost, birds are meant to fly. In my humble opinion it would be cruel to deprive my baby of her only natural defense. I'm not worried about her escaping outside, as all of our windows have screens on them. Like I said, having a fully flighted bird in my house is not an issue. I understand that in other homes it might be.

Needless to say, I am NEVER considering wing clipping . I also understand that wing clipping can affect the neurological development of birds that are under 2 years old. Or Something like that.

[Joolesgreyuk]

Tycos_mum, that is a VERY good reason, I usually partially close my curtains to remind Beau about the glass. B)

[Dave007]

I'm against wing clipping but it's true that this subject needs to be dealt with with kid gloves. I'm now putting on my kid gloves because if legitimate deep debates occur, it can stimulate unintentional nastiness between people. Those people usually contain people who've had birds for quite a while and people are newer owners who may be following advice of others who say a certain thing is standard practice without knowing the whole scope of wing clipping. There are things that can happen to greys who are clipped that have to do with personality, physical development, lack of independance.

Different species of parrots have different personalities when they finally reach adolescence. Many times, when a very young grey is purchased, the bird is extremely dependent on the owners for a variaty of things. Most owners are thrilled about this and look forward to the grey always being this way through adolescence and into an older age. That's when many problems start occuring. Now before I continue, I'd like to say that this isn't an insult to anyone. It's never done on purpose nor is it a person's fault because what I'm gonna say may rub people the wrong way.

It's because of a grey's adult personality which causes many people to say that a grey shouldn't be a person's first bird. The reason that's said is because of a natural personality change which can upset many people because that change is totally different than when the bird was dependent. Concerning the personality of a grey---eventually, the grey become much more aloof, doesn't want to cuddiled as much, shows a tendency to wanna be alone, wants to do things when it wants to do things, how to do things and where it wants to do things, exhibites more nipping and biting than when it was a baby. Many people look upon this a loss of love to the opwner and it upsets them. It's simply a grey's personality and it has nothing to do with love. Look at other species of birds and a variation of these things are present or not present. A grey can give the appearance of a bird who's lost interest in the family structure but that's not happening. People though, insist that's what is going on and proceed to do things to bring that bird back to be dependent. Problems start. Plucking feathers, chewing feathers,otrher types of self mutilation,moodiness, an increase in biting, lack of interest in things, a huge increase in vet visits and many other changes.

Now, it's recently be brought up here that people shouldn't be so negative to others about wing clipping especially since wing clipping has been accepted for a long time world wide in the bird world. Well, I can say that it's not true at all.

In Europe, the huge majority of parrot owners in many countries consider and look upon wing clipping as being akin to animal cruelity.

I realize that many people here can't do this but in Europe, they have a totally different way of avioding many problems concerning potential problems and that method is to give parrots as much outside time as possible concerning flying creatures so when those parrots are back in their homes, they have little desire to fly away. People in Europe are very good at training parrots free flight and harness flight that have extremely long leads on them. Many of these parrots are outside for most of the day.

If anyone here is into various nature shows that feature people who are telling and showing the lifestyles of other animals that have nothing to do with birds, you'll often see parrots of all types standinng around the owners and they all have the ability to fly away and they do and they come back. Many of these birds are the long tailed varieties which have the ability to fly miles away which they do. When back in a house, they have no desire to crash into windows in order to get out. The young captive birds here do that because beyond those windows is an area where they wanna be. It's a bird's nature to wanna be there because parrots are wild animals who will always stay as wild animals throughout their lives whether they're free or are indoor pets. I'm not telling anyone here that they must follow those methods. My only point here is that wing clipping isn't accepted world wide as a final solution. There are many methods to achieve different things.

So basically, this is my take on wing clipping.

 

Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/04/30 19:47<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2009/04/30 19:53

[Jane08]

Well said Dave and I totally agree. Your comments on Europe are very true and I love the way people where I live treat their animals. We have no rescue centres of the likes I have seen in the US and other countries.

 

I am also against wing clipping, they are born with wings for one reason and that is to fly not for them to be clipped. I don't care what issues people have with their birds and decide to get them clipped there are always other options like training which takes months and months of consistency.

 

This is where I think people go for the easy option, clip the bird problem solved. The other option to train the bird is just too damned hard and time consuming so the easy option is always taken.

 

This sadens me, as an owner you have an obligation to give your bird the best you can and that includes spending 100's of hours to train and teach your bird. If you are not prepared to do this don't get the bird.

 

With our first bird Rangi I got advice to clip him because he had problems getting on with my boyfriend. There was no way in hell that I was going to clip him, so instead my boyfriend spent months and many hours trying different things to gain Rangi's trust. It was hard work, but we owed that to Rangi he didn't ask to come and live with us and he didn't ask to have his right to fly taken away from him and who were we to do that to him.

 

Of course the 100's of hours of training paid off and they are now friends.

 

Training before clipping is my motto.

[Supernova]

Short answer---------------------------

 

 

DONT NO! NO! NO! NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

How would you like your arms cut off.

 

Rant over.

Bernie.

[Tycos_mom]

I do agree I don't clip my birds after the inictial and as for My Grey Tyco I rescued her and when I got her she had barbered all of the flight feathers on her left side I inagine because of a bad clip as a baby because she wasn't permited to fledge she is six years old and is just starting to learn to fly back to why I clipped her she was so off balance from barbering her left side and would fall hard on her keel constantly. I took her to the vet and had her wings evened out in the hope it would stop her from falling and it did it also stopped her from barbering that left wing, and now she is fully flighted. I have reasons that I clip and only do it if it seems nessesary. I never clipped my Severe Macaws wings when I rescued him basicly because he was cage bound he wouldn't come out so I didn't want to further damage his confidence by clipping. He's gotten allot better now he comes out and lets me scritch his head but still doesn't like to leave his cage area for long I do take him into another room everyday for some intence one on one fun but after about an hour he wants to go back to his cage I'm hoping in time he will prefer me over his cage.

[danmcq]

We'll said Dave and in a very informative neutral way. :-)

 

I must say this entire thread so far is only comments by us "Flighted" ones. I hope others that do keep their Greys clipped, do not feel compelled to just NOT post due to the possibility of being attacked.

 

Hopefully that would not happen and their reasons/views on clipping would be respected as the other comments here so far.

 

We have debated this before on the forum, but had a real "Heckler" that made it a nightmare which finally resulted in him being banned from this site.

 

With that said, those of you that keep your birds clipped, on out and get friendly with your conversations. :-)

 

If there are none, then I guess everyone here has been converted to the flighted side of the fence. ;-)<br><br>Post edited by: danmcq, at: 2009/04/30 21:00

[chimaysmommy]

Chimay came to us with a "partial" clip from our breeder, which is fine by me because his primary flight feathers are still quite long and he is very very able to glide safely to where ever he wants to go in our apartment.

 

That being said we do plan to allow his feathers to grow out and not clip them. My primary thoughts on it prior to reading any of the posts on this forum were a) Safety--as previously stated here, I feel that if Chimay ever escaped somehow I would feel much better knowing that he has the capacity to escape a predator or other dangerous situation. Also, he would be better equipped to find his way home. b) Confidence--I want Chimay to be a confident happy grey for as long as he's with us, and I don't believe that clipping could be good for his psyche. c) Fun!! I really believe that with the progress that Chimay has made with getting acquainted with his harness that we're in store for a lot of fun in the sun, and I want him to be able to experience flight...he is a bird after all

[judygram]

Excellent post Dave and I agree wholeheartedly, birds have wings and are meant to fly, I know that now but I do understand those who do clip and would like to hear their reasons for doing so.

 

Josey was clipped before I brought her home and I have regretted it since as her flights have yet to grow out where she can attain flight, she has chewed some of them off and I attribute that to that first clip. I look forward to the day that she takes flight and I will never clip her.

 

Sunny my sun conure is flighted now too, I used to clip her flights myself but it is so wonderful to see her fly, she does fly to me but usually when she is startled she will fly back to her cage.

[Tycos_mom]

Judy agree that first intial baby clip can really screw the Greys up Tyco also used to barber the left hand flight feathers and I'm sure that was due to the first clip she had I don't know how she manage to live being so off balance for her first 4 years I guess they just never let her out of the cockateil size cage she lived in. I'm so glad that I took her in and got her wings evened out properly because it stopted her from chewing her feather. Now finally at 6 yrs old she can find out what its like to be a bird. If she's ever able to really learn how to fly.

[Raposa]

I am very mixed about wing clipping. I am against it in theory, but I understand that there are situations in which the bird's safety could depend on it. Jenna was clipped by my vet about a month after I brought her home. I do not plan to have her clipped again, but there might be reasons it could happen. Here is the story: Jenna was fully flighted and quite a good little flyer at the breeder's. When she came to my house, she was not used to her playtree and swings, she wanted somewhere up high to land, and ended up on hanging lamp shades where she could get burned, or on tall book shelves that did not really have room for her on their edges so she fluttered around a lot to keep her balance. That got my other animals very interested and excited, which made ME very nervous. We also have a large picture window in the living room and a sliding glass door in the dining room that Jenna kept flying into. I worked with her to teach her the windows were there, and she got it for the most part but if she got scared or startled she would forget. I was petrified that she would break her neck. In addition, I have 5 cats in my household. All of them are as "bird-friendly" as natural predators can be ~smile~ but they did not know Jenna, and if by chance she flew and landed near one of them before I could get there, I was terrified that they might hurt her. The final reason was that my 84 year old disabled mom has caregivers in and out of the house all the time. None of the caregivers are used to birds, and doors would be left to close slowly by themselves when the caregivers came in, and windows were not being shut well or regularly. I kept envisioning Jenna flying out the door.

 

So she was clipped last summer, and she has not grown new flight feathers in yet. I am not sure if I will have her clipped again; I hope that by the time her feathers all grow back in it won't be needed. By now the cats are all familiar with Jenna and basically ignore her; she is still being shown where the windows and sliding door is; the caregivers are more used to watching out for her when she is out of her cage, and she loves her swings and cage top toys. So maybe by now it would be safe to keep her unclipped. I'd love to let her be full flighted again. But it depends on the risk factors; I would rather have her clipped and safe than flighted and dead or missing.

[judygram]

Well she has some of her flights but not enough to actually fly and she chews mostly on one side but I am patient for I know one day she will take flight and then her and Sunny can play who can fly the best.

[CarolandFamily]

I was at one point going to have our baby clipped, I have had one bird that was clipped many years ago. Talking to Judy and Dave really made me think good and hard and I decided NOT to get my babies clipped. I have the Aviator harnesses for both of my babies. Judy told me this sad story about her baby who was clipped *sigh* That was a big factor too and I talked to my breeder about it too and asked her not to clip them.

 

I am not pro or anti I just want what's best for both of my babies and to each it's own. Everyone has reasonings why they do what they do <br><br>Post edited by: CarolandFamily, at: 2009/05/01 01:28

[judygram]

I am so glad to hear you won't be clipping those baby's wings, I do feel strongly about this now and I want to see my Josey take flight again, they were meant to fly and I think they will be more confident if they can.

[Tycos_mom]

I understand Raposa where your coming from its better to be safe than sorry. If I felt for any reason my birds would not be safe in my house flying around then I may consider clipping if I couldn't some how train them or correct the situation.

[CarolandFamily]

Aww Thanks Judy you helped think it through you and Dave. Dave that was very eloquent what you said it was right on point too!

[Dave007]

A tip for those people who are having a scary time with their glass windows and glass sliding doors and such----go to a dollar store or to an arts and crafts store and pick up a couple of packages of Cling Ons or something similar. They're paper thin, many patterns, many colors. They work just like the items that are put on refrgerators except there's no magnet. Just put some of these items on your windows and glass doors. Birds will be able to see them. They stick on and can be taken off and reused over and over. There's no glue involved either. I use these things on my rear glass sliding door in the backyard because hundreds of small buntings and goldfinches and chickadees are constantly invading the feeders from all angles and many times, they would go crashing into the glass and wind up dead or temporarily unconscious. With the stickers, they see the glass and avoid it.

 

 

[fofaviary]

If I can't talk my clients out of it, I will clip wings. I'd rather I do it than have them butcher the baby. All my babies I sell are harness tolerent as well (I don't say trained, because that's a long-term committment into a bird's adult hood).

 

That being said, my own birds are flighted and harness trained if possible. Unfortunately, my CAGS are currently trimmed because my vet got his wires crossed. He won't be doing that again. Sucks too, I had just been working on recall training with Lilly. Thankfully, feathers grow back quickly when they're trimmed close to a molt.

 

The only pet bird that's trimmed and will remain so is my daughter's conure hybrid who is crazy possessive of her, and has injured other human members of the household by flying at their faces and raking his claws and beaks into flesh. It's for OUR health that they're trimmed or else he'd tear our collective eyes out. It was a difficult choice though, but the thought of him being flighted but locked away all day for our safety versus trimmed and allowed free range of his playstands kinda made me pick the trimming.

[Luvparrots]

Ana Grey came to me clipped. It breaks my heart that she can't fly because she tries to all the time. She and I are both waiting impatiently for the day her new flight feathers come in. I prefer birds flighted, but try to respect others choices because nothing in life is set in stone and circumstances can always change.

[Kaedyn]

Both of my greys were clipped by the breeder prior to my picking them up. I didn't think that much of it. I remembered my parents clipping their Timneh back in the day and it just seemed like the thing to do.

 

In hindsight, I'll never clip any of my fids again. Despite her mild clip Sierra has always been capable of flying from place to place. Rigel, on the other hand, had very limited flight ability due to his more severe clip. All this did was cause him to crash to the floor and lose even more flight feathers. He eventually wound up with none and as it got worse the difference in his personality and confidence was plain to see.

 

The really bad part I found was that when I bird is trying to grow new feathers, it really helps to have other feather surrounding the new blood feather to protect it against damage. In Rigel's case, he had none, so just as soon as he'd span a new feather he'd break it.

 

This went on for about one year and I eventually got fed up with the lack of progress. I decided that I was going to do whatever I could to help him break the cycle. He got a new cage, with a completely new layout. I made sure there was nothing within the cage that his wings might hit on the way down if he were to fall. I shortened every one of his perches to about 1.5 feet off the ground. I never let him play on his net unattended and I placed a soft mat below the net. We played with toys either on the floor or on a soft bed. I made sure to watch for signs that he wanted to go somewhere and helped him get down from his net, perch, or cage before he attempted to fly, etc....., etc.

 

It's been quite an uphill battle. He injured many of his blood feathers, but I refused to pull any of them. I stopped the bleeding, showered him clean, and babysat him until I was sure it wasn't going to bleed again.

 

As of this very moment, Rigel has one nearly full wing of feathers on his right side. His left wing was doing just as well, but he managed to lose two of his primary flights earlier this month. He doesn't really fly yet, but he is able to fly down from his perch or between perches when necessary. My obvious goal is to have him fully feathered and that just means I can't let my guard down just yet.

 

I can definitely say that ever since his flight feathers started filling in and he realized that falling didn't necessarily mean crash landing, his personality has greatly improved. He's much more accepting of other people, he bites less, and he's become more confident.

 

So my personal option is that I will never again clip any of their wings. I don't think the dangers it protects them against outweigh the dangers and other negatives it creates. I'd rather find other creative ways to protect them than to take away their bird-ness. <--- New word?<br><br>Post edited by: Kaedyn, at: 2009/05/01 03:25

[judygram]

You want to sat something Jim?:whistle: :blink: :huh:

[Dave007]

Words can not describe the depth of his feelings and thoughts. The mind is an easy thing to lose.

 

Jim

all I can say is good luck on your journey into the abyss.

[judygram]

Maybe he doesn't feel one way or the other, we may never know.