Controversial - Do they know right/wrong?

[DavidH]

I personally do not believe the mirror test is a good test of whether a critter is "Self Aware". Some look, yawn and know thats themselves in the mirror and do not pay much attention to it. Others react by checking themselves out and making sure they look good today.

 

Right, Dan. The mirror text is a good measure of inclusion in self-consciousness, but it doesn't exclude. Dogs are the best example, I think. They are much more likely to pass a smell-based version of self-awareness than a sight-based one. There are many other reasons why animals might not "get" mirrors and still be self-aware.

 

We're more likely to get to the core of self-consciousness through neurological and biochemical knowledge. And even then we'll have species where the line is impossible to draw. We may have to stretch our concept of consciousness and self to fit species like bees and fish.

 

Given current knowledge we can talk about a broad community of animal feeling, in which we humans participate.

[Talon]

Okay Dan, you asked for it.....:whistle:

Here are some examples of correct content in my house with my 2 greys:

 

When ever I or one of us, say something to each other, such as, I'm going out to Starbucks, etc." or "please clean up the house", or "Mom, where is..." Rikki says, 'WHAT?' Then we always say, "I said, and we will repeat it, and then she says, "oh."

 

When I first walk in the house after being gone, Rikki will say, "COLD", as that's usually the first thing I say when I walk in the house, or she will always say, "hello!" or "Hi Mom!"

 

Rikki will sit on my pocketbook which I leave by the door, as she knows I will take it when I leave. I think she thinks she is preventing me from leaving...:blink:

 

Talon will say, "okay," after I tell my kids what they need to do while I'm gone.

 

When I pick up Talon to put her in her play cage right before I have to leave the house, she will say, "Be back soon, okay?" This is something I always say to her after I put her in her cage.

 

Of course, we all know that when our phone rings, they all say "Hello?" But my cell phone plays the song, Make a Memory by Bon Jovi, and every time it starts playing, they both say, "Hello?"

 

Talon will say, "Ouch!" if I accidentally bump her, or something touches her. One day, Rikki came over to her, and tried to tweak Talon's beak, Talon yelled, "HEY!"

 

When I say 'it's time for bed" Talon says, "Want to go nuh nites?"

 

 

When Talon is thirsty, she will say, "Thirsty Bird." until she gets a drink of juice from one of us.

 

Talon will also peek out of her sleep cage in the morning, ( I cover it with a sheet at night) and say, "Peek a boo!"

 

Well, that's enough of my examples!! They are just so smart, they never cease to amze us with their intelligence!

[danmcq]

Thanks Penny!! :-)

 

Talon and Rikki are certanily giving a great example of Grey intelligence, emotions and cuteness at the same time!! :-)

 

Hopefully others will chime in too with examples.

[LisaM]

Kenya attacks the mirror with such ferocity that I get to her quickly because I think she might crack her beak. I'm pretty sure she doesn't relate to the fact that it's her own reflection.

 

However...

 

Today my dog was laying in the doorway. Kenya was on her playstand and started saying "come here...come over here...come on...c'mere...c'mere...come over here..." When that didn't work she "knocked" on her playstand to get the dog's attention. Once Angie (dog) looked up at her she started again ont eh "c'mere...". Angie started walking over to the playstand and Kenya started throwing food down at her. This was the first time she's done this. It's almost exactly what we do when we call Angie to feed her (including the knocking on something to get her attention as she's really old and doesn't hear very well anymore). It was hilarious. They'll throw food down at her when she's down there all the time, but Kenya has never called Angie specifically for that purpose before.

 

(Yes, she was mimicing what we do, but she was applying it in the right situation in order to get what she wanted (the dog to come over to her)).

 

Gotta love 'em. No matter what side of this friendly debate you're on! :-)<br><br>Post edited by: LisaM, at: 2009/01/27 04:32

[danmcq]

Great story Lisa! That's not just mimicry, it is definitely well thought out and intentionally persisted at until Angie responded which included having to knock to get her attention. The the fun of feeding Angie was the fun activity Kenya was able to take part in.

 

A video of that would be great, but I know how hard and near to impossible that is to do. :-)

[darth_mint]

Been lurking for a while, but this little argument just drew me out because of something Nicky did a while ago that so completely demonstrated his ability to reason logically.

 

My sister was sitting at her desk eating a sliced apple, when a little grey head appeared over the edge of the table and a wheedling voice said, “Nicky apple, Nicky good boy.”

 

Not being in a sharing mood, she said, “No,” and went on eating. The following conversation ensued:

 

Nicky: “Aaaaaaaapppppllllllleeeeee”

 

Sis: “I said NO”

 

Nicky: “Nicky good boy”

 

Sis: “NO is NO”

 

Nicky: “Apple, apple, apple”

 

Sis: “Go away!”

 

Nicky: (car alarm noise)

 

Sis: (who was trying to study) “SHUT UP!”

 

Nicky: “Book”

 

Nicky: “Pail”

 

Nicky: “Patho”

 

Nicky: “APPLE”

 

I had been teaching Nicky to say the names of items such as a book and a pail when asked “What is this?” And my sister had been teaching him to say pathophysiology for some reason - he could only manage the first two syllables. Basically, all these are words he’s been rewarded for!

 

Eventually my sister gave him the apple just to stop him following her around and yelling. The first line in particular really got me, because he wasn't just asking for a treat, he was giving a reason why he should get it - Nicky deserves apple because Nicky is a good boy!

[Mistyparrot]

What a great example Darth-mint.

Your sister should have more sense than to argue with Nicky :laugh:

 

How old is Nicky?

 

Steve n Misty

[danmcq]

Hi Darth, that was an excellent example showing reasoning and even debating abilities in a Grey. How could you argue or debate that Nicky did not deserve a piece of Apple? :-)

 

Thanks for sharing this unique and interesting conversation Nicky carried on with you sister.

 

I truly hope others share theirs as well. This is really a great thread. Who knows, maybe someone from the scientific community will start following it. ;-)

[Tycos_mom]

My bird Fergie speaks in context allot. When I am getting ready to out she knows it and for the whole time she will say No don't go its not fair its just not fair. I have now Idea where she learned this but some how she ha put it together and says it every time. Talk about making me feel guilty everytime I need to go out somewhere.

[Janfromboone]

Frankly I think we are all the same - birds dogs people. Lately with all the news about the bailouts and corporate corruption I'm convinced that people don't really know right from wrong unless it suits their purposes. :silly:

Ever noticed that all species, yes even birds, respond to rapidly repeated "uh-uh-uh-uh-uh". It makes them stop and freeze in place - if only for a moment.

[EdiferiousRex]

Not an african grey story but...

I know a blue and gold macaw, one morning while his owner was sleeping he went upstairs to her bedroom, and got on her night stand, cocked his head to the side and said "What are you doing?" she replied "Sleeping! Go away!" he said "Oh, okay..." and flew out the window above the bed.

(Free flighted outdoors...she's crazy, I know)

[danmcq]

EdiferiousRex - :ohmy: Did the Macaw come back? Nice story, if it has a happy ending. ;-)

[LisaM]

Here's another incident:

 

Tonight one of my parrots was on my shoulder. For whatever reason, he let out a really loud piercing screech right into my ear (yeah, still ringing a bit). It made me jump which in turn made him fly off my shoulder onto the table. I said a loud "OUCH" (reflex, couldn't help it:blush: ).

 

He was at the other end of the table and turned around looking at me. I said (covering my ear with my hand), "Max, that really hurt". After a few moments he put his beak on the table and walked across the table back to me with his beak on the table the whole time (never has done that before). Came up to my arm and sat there with his beak on the table, head against my arm. I said, "that's okay, I know you didn't do it on purpose". Now I know he doesn't understand the words I said, but probably felt the meaning behind them. He then stepped up onto my arm and all was well.

 

It was like when my dog puts her head down knowing she did something she wasn't supposed to. It was definitely clear that he knew that something he did upset me and that seemed to be his way of trying to make amends.

 

Lisa

[oppie]

Just a few sentences. One day, Poco, our late SIE, pooped on the floor. When Dotty saw it, she asked "Who pooped on the floor?" Poco looked her and said, "I did"! Awful clear understanding of language from a bird that does not understand language, considering we do not use "I did" ourselfs... If she was responding to Dotty's voice forming a question, why didn't she just say "Poco good girl", a phrase that we taught her?

 

Ralph

[danmcq]

Thanks Lisa - That truly does seem to indicate that Max picked up on your feelings and acknowledged them. :-)

 

Oppie - That is a very good example of abstraction taking place on "Whom" did the dastardly deeds. What is very interesting, is the use of words she had to have heard in casual conversation and observances of of situations where those two words were used in correct context. The interesting question in this, is does she truly understand the "I" as in first person or just giving the answer she has learned is correct?

[danmcq]

Ok, another new display of "Ah Ha!".

 

Dayo asks Kim when she walks in the room "Where's Mommy?"

 

Kim replies "I'm right here!".

 

Dayo again asks "Where's Mommy?".

 

Kim Replies "I Am Mommy!!"

 

Dayo - Long pause............then says "Ooooook!".

 

Conversation ends...... :-)

[Janfromboone]

One of the things I most enjoy about having an african grey is their ability to pop out new words or phrases in a very appropriate situation. I can just hear him, Oooook!

[danmcq]

I probably caused the confusion. Many times I will ask him "Where's Kim?", other times I will ask "Where's Mommy"\?". This is actually my mistake and evidently lead to Dayo being confused at me calling the same person 2 different names/title. I am positive he does not know what a "Mommy" is due to having never witnessed the birth and up bringing of a child or critter.

 

I can only surmise ,that his "Oooook!" was something along the lines of - How do you rate have 2 names? :-)

 

You really need to be careful when describing things, places or people etc. to these very intelligent Greys!!

[Janfromboone]

give yourself a break. He's got to learn sometime that many things have two names. I've done the same thing. Tobie has named me "big bird", but I'm also Mommy or Mama or Jan. I think he got confused and just gave me the name "big bird".

[danmcq]

Another story of a Grey intelligence. This time by displaying correct use of word choice and emphasis....

 

So Kim was doing house work and running back and forth between the bedroom and garage. Dayo fol owed flying in hot pursuit behind her to the back bedroom 3 times.

 

The fourth time he watched her go through and as she turned to go down the hallway to the bedroom a 4th time. Dayo says loudly and emphatically "Mommy....DAMNIT!!!" :angry:

 

We both fell over laughing. Then I got the lecture from Kim on how I need to quick using that word when I get frustrated..... :whistle: Damnit!! ;-)

[oppie]

ROTFLOL

 

Ralph