how many african grey damage feathers

[she]

1 cag. 6 years old (approx). 2 homes including mine, hand reared,fully flighted but has been clipped in the past. No plucking issues.

 

Blue, my cousins 40 odd year old wild caught grey has never plucked in his life. Always been fully flighted but does not fly much now.

 

Post edited by: she, at: 2008/12/17 00:09<br><br>Post edited by: she, at: 2008/12/17 00:12

[Janfromboone]

Sounds to me like the flighted birds really don't pluck as much. It's the first arguement I've heard for keeping Tobie flighted that over powers the fear I have of him flying away. Birds flying away - getting out the door somehow or escaping when being taken out even with a harness seems common. My neighbor (who I met after Tobie came to me) has fully flighted (fully feathered, I might add) 10yo CAG who escaped once and they were lucky enough to recover the bird. It scares me, but if Tobie will just leave his feathers alone, I'm going to let him fly.

[danmcq]

I know this was a long thought out decision. But, it sounds like after weighing in all the data and considering the possible end of the plucking issue with Tobie and his health and well being kept in mind. The fear of losing him, was overcome by the love you have for him to be all he can be. :-)

 

Great decision!! :-)

[pixiexoxo]

Biggles

 

Male

 

1 and a half

 

Fully Flighted, never clipped

 

No Plucking or chewing ever

 

 

This discussion is making very interesting reading.

[domyoburk]

My husband and I take such good and careful care of Ursula - aged 8 months - that I would feel quite smug IF she didn't chew her feathers.

 

I won't even bother to list all of the measures we've taken (thorough bathing, good humidity, plenty of sleep, big square cage in a corner, many hours outside the cage every day, to name a few), although she came to us clipped.

 

For 3 months now she has been chewing feathers off her back, severing them at the bottom. She's got a big fuzzy spot there now. We are working closely with a great avian vet (Dr. Patricia Huff, Portland Oregon) who is not ready to say this is just a behavioral issue. Currently we are experimenting with diet.

 

I HOPE AS GREY LOVERS WE CAN GET TOGETHER AND SOME SOME GOOD RESEARCH DONE ON THE TOPIC! If every person on this forum made a small donation we could fund a graduate student! This is a subtle, pervasive and mysterious issue; bad care may make feather mutilation worse or more likely, but there is something about the way we care for greys in captivity that doesn't cut it. Heck, in nature they eat clay!

[Dave007]

Well, it all has to do with wild birds being in captivity. Some handle it pretty well and others don't. Most owners treat their birds very well and they chew and/or pluck. Some people don't treat their birds well at all and they don't pluck or chew their feathers. With some birds, it has to do with personality, nervousness, family environment, how long they were allowed to continue eating formula before being classified as being weaned, relationships with other things that surround them. Some aren't bothered. Some are. Some have plucked and chewed and developed permanent habits and it won't stop. The same thing applies to pluckers.

It's like a person who bites their nails. Some do it out of nervousness. Some do it out of habit. Some do it because it feels good. Some do it for all those reasons.

I doubt that any graduate student will be able to delve into the unknown. It's been tried over and over by the best with no clear answers.

Clay? Africa? Greys?

Only birds of the Amazon but not birds will eat clay for the high salt content and to balance their digestive systems. The macaw is a bird that needs high amounts of a special clay in order to get a high quantity of alkaloids in their systems because many of the nuts they eat are toxic. The alkaloids neutralize the toxicity.

Greys don't eat salt. In the wild, greys are leaf, vegetable and fruit eaters. Their digestive systems will seriously degrade from regular amounts of salt.

[domyoburk]

Thanks again for your comments, Dave - although as a wild biologist (formerly) I think a study could be done.

 

Sorry if I am misinformed, but my comment about greys eating soil (I guess it might not be clay) came from watching "Where the Greys Are" - a series of three videos about wild african greys you can watch on youtube:

 

On it, they say that the flocks of greys come to forest clearings for the same reason as the elephants, ungulates and other birds: water, soil and aquatic plants. It sure looks like a fair amount of soil is at least being taken into the beaks... it's probably not salty. I would love to know more.

[domyoburk]

Oops... make that wildLIFE biologist. I studied owls.

[Dave007]

Those greys aren't eating the dirt on the ground. They're digging it up and pushing it aside. Greys are well known scavengers and will look for the quickest meal they can find which includes everything that other animals drop or other things that fall off. Given the choice they will definitely go to the ground and eat what's available. They dig the earth up to pick out any seeds, roots of plants or whateever they find that's tasty and nutritious. They don't eat the dirt. The area they're eating in is swamp land which can provide the largest amount of green food.

It's that preferred habit of scavenging all over the ground which allowed poachers to set up nets and crude traps and capture hundreds of them for exportation which also caused lots of deaths and fatal injuries. That all ended in 1992 with certain laws being put into effect concerning the importation of all parrots into the US.

PS--That Import/Export ruling doesn't apply to all countries though.<br><br>Post edited by: Dave007, at: 2008/12/31 01:10

[Janfromboone]

I have to agree with domyoburk that if we don't have answers yet to the plucking issue in spite of the previously crafted surveys and other such instruments then we haven't crafted the right type of instrument with all the right questions. Just because it's been done before is no reason to stop looking for answers and finding similarities in lifestyle of the plucked vs the unplucked. I think we have already with this small sampling hinted at the importance of flight. What if someone gathered addresses from all the forums, birdtalks subscription list and some how ended up with thousands of bird owners who would respond to a list of questions such as food type, flighted and unflighted, amount of alone time, type of toys, (the list is almost endless) and came up with some common denomonators. There has got to be some list that if you do all these things even the most nervous bird won't pluck.

 

By the way, How many of these flighted and non-plucking birds are also using Red Palm Oil and/or palm nuts as part of the diet? Did your vet suggest this, domyoburk. What did she suggest? Tobie is better with the baths and other measures I've taken, but I'm up for more suggestions. I moved the bird feeder on the porch so Tobie could see it from the cage when I work and I'm much better at leaving the radio playing. Also Dave007's suggestions about daily baths and use of Aloe Vera spray are helping.

[domyoburk]

Thanks, Janfromboone! It's encouraging to hear from someone else who is doing their best, is intelligent and trying to inform themselves, but still has a bird that chews or plucks... it is easy to feel guilty at some level. On the other hand, we have a sweet, hand-raised, apparently happy baby. Her sister (still at the breeder) doesn't chew. What can we have done wrong?

 

Our vet is holding palm oil and sprays as a last resort treatment; first we are trying a diet change. She was eating Lake's when we got her, gradually switched her to Harrison's high potency (including Power Treats which have palm oil), and a couple weeks later this chewing started. So the vet wanted us to eliminate one factor at a time - she wanted us to go back to Lake's, stop giving Power Treats and seeds, in order to get control of her diet. She wants us to do this for about 6 weeks and then come back to reevaluate; if we change too many things at once we won't know what it was. Future possibilities are palm oil, sprays, or a rice-based pellet. We already got a filter for our showerhead so her showers have no chlorine! (At our vet's insistence!)

 

RE: a study... I am serious about this. The biggest issue is how to raise money, but it would make a perfect master's thesis. A grad student could design an objective, thorough questionnaire, and then do the important statistics on the results so we didn't end up with spurious (and meaningless) conclusions. Until we have real research, we're guessing based on anecdotes.

[Janfromboone]

I had thought about doing it myself, but I don't know enough about what I'm doing. On the other hand, we as bird owners and the experience that the forum administrators and long term bird owners have would help to establish the pertinent questions and issues that might have an effect on feather plucking. A student wouldn't necessarily know what issues relate to plucking. They would however know how to manage the research statistics and determine if the numbers are statistically significant. Maybe it should be a joint venture.

[Codys Mom]

I have one that flies, thats my Eclectus and one fledging now, my baby Timneh , both of thoose 2 I will leave flighted I also have a quaker but his wings will always be clipped reason why is because he gets into to many little corners and gets into trouble , he flew behind my washer and dryer a few weeks ago and I had a heck of a time getting him out from behind there I had to call for help to get him out then I decided no more flying for Opey

[Janfromboone]

Sounds like the Quaker is doing ok clipped. I just think the heavy bodys and sensitive nature of our greys makes them do better if at some point they are allowed to fly. Tobie has finally grown one wing out almost fully, but the other one is in such bad shape that he can't fly at all yet. Keeping my fingers crossed that he will grow out the other wing. I don't think he is chewing the feathers off now. They are just breaking from too little support.

[Tycos_mom]

Tyco was clipped before she fledged and barbered her left wing flight feathers for 4 years she also went through 3 owners in that time when I got her she was so off balance from barbering only one side I was worried she would break her keel she would fall so hard. So I took her to the vet and had her wings clipped to match each other and she also straitened out any that where chewed and uneven onthe left side ever since then and since I've had her she has let her flight feather grow in she is now fully flighted and no longer destroys any feathers she trys hard to fly and can a little I don't ever think she with be an ace flyer but now at least she trys and can actually do get to where she wants to be she is 6 years old and never barbers a single feather. I think that feather destruction has allot to do with when birds are clipped especialy African Grey's

[KHAN]

CAG - 2years old. Sex unknown.

 

I've never had it with Kaan, and I think that's because he spends so much time out of his cage with me. I think it's a 'social' thing.<br><br>Post edited by: KHAN, at: 2009/07/29 09:36

[Raposa]

Jenna is a CAG, 20 months old, flighted. She has always had red palm oil in her diet (although not necessarily every day) and had regular bathing (again, not necessarily every day). Last November we went through a scarey time, with my mom (who lives in our home) in the hospital for over 3 weeks. I was rarely home, and when I was, I did not have a lot of time for my baby. A week or so after Mom came home from the hospital, I went on a week long vacation, leaving Jenna (with LOTS of care and attention) for the first time. She started barbering her feathers, and it went on for several months. Jenna and I went to the vet, asked for advice here on this forum, and did everything we could come up with to help. Now Jenna looks gorgeous again, feathers almost completely grown out, and she does not barber any more. I think it was a stress reaction, and my vet agrees.

 

As a post script, I went on a long weekend trip last June. I was worried sick that Jenna would start barbering her feathers again, but she did just fine! So do I count Jenna as a bird with feather problems or not? She certainly does not have them now!

[poochbabe]

I know this was all an old post but I wanted to add my two cents in at this late date...Ganesha was 7 mos old and was sold by the breeder to a couple who wanted her clipped. Five days later they returned her bald and raw saying she was defective. I rescued her at 10 mos and she was a very sad, sad bird...extremely anxious and skiddish about any kind of abandonment, even for a few minutes. My vet is an angel and she is the vet for our local Avian Rescue. She really knows all birds but seems to have a great handle on Greys. She never makes you feel like it is a bad species or that you are a bad parent. She gives lots of great behavorial advise and handles the physical issues with compassion. She recommmends not clipping the wings on a young Grey. She thinks it can be what starts the problems; fear of not being able to fly and irritation due to the clip itself.

 

The local animal emergency gave me a huge collar to put on her that would have prevented Nesh from even eating when I had to take her in at 2 am because a tail feather that was bleeding profusely and would not stop. Dr. Bloss, my avian vet, instead pulled a few shafts that support the tail and the upper flight feather in order to let those grow in stronger and healthier, she gave me anti inflammatory pain killers so when they start to grow she doesn't have as much pain and will leave them alone and put her on Paxil to ease the stress before even considering submitting her to a collar. She calls to follow up in a few weeks after every appointment and has me bring her in every so often without a medical appointment for a free "playtime" with the vet techs so she is not so stressed every time she needs to go to the vet. They even saved me all the empty syringe cases so she can play with them and I can stuff them with nuts and treats for foraging. She gave me info on foraging, playing with toys and diet issues, including no dye organic pellets and taking peanuts and sunflower seeds out of the diet. We talk about humidifiers and steaming. I got lucky with this vet and it is paying off. Check out my post on the Grey Lounge under Would a Second Grey help Ganesha and you will see the improvements with this treatment and this amazing vet.

For anyone in the Milwaukee area she is at the Brook Falls Veterinary Clinic in Butler, WI.

 

FYI, both of my Greys are/were CAGs and female. Both were bad pluckers, Rubin all of her 10 years.

[jessdecutie18]

Yoshi

Sex: Female

6 and a half months old

Clipped unfortunately

 

Never any plucking or feather mutilation. She actually takes very good care of them!

[Janfromboone]

I want your vet, Poochbabe. I've been very reluctant to take Tobie back to the vet since he seemed so negative and totally terrifed Tobie, though he got over it quickly. Tobie still has one wing that hasn't grown in. There is another vet in another town that I may have to take him to.

[judygram]

I am like you Jan, I am going to an avian vet who is farther away from me but he has been recommended to me so I am trying him. The present one is ok but I just don't have the confidence in him I should so I will have to make a 2 hour drive to this new one, I hope he is worth it.

[rbpittman]

Beau was chewing his wing feathers terribly after an injury and yeast infection while at the store. I've taken him to the vet and he pulled 22 feathers from his wing. My poor baby does have balance issues and must be kept low in his cage, but most of the destructive behavior has stopped. We revisit the vet tomorrow for a two week check-up. While the behavior has not stopped completely it has slowed down tremendously. Gone is the shaking and shivering upon entering his cage and immediate desire to destroy his feathers, he is much more playful in the last week and is eating much better.

 

Beau has only been home for 3 weeks, and while I'm sure most of his behavior could be attributed to the illness/injury and my own stress of his behavior, ignoring it and living in the moment seems to be working well. The only new damage is to one tail feather and I'm not sure that Beau caused the damage or if it happened in his cage before I could prevent his climbing up the sides. Beau had completely plucked his breast and it is now covered in downy fuzz and beautiful new pin feathers that he doesn't mess with.