Should we work on touching more?

[domyoburk]

Ursula is only 5 months old. We've had her a month, and we are all still getting used to each other, although she is hand-raised and completely attentive and tame and loving. Both my husband and I tend to err (if it can be called erring) on the side of only touching her/petting her where and when she feels like letting us do so. As people we prefer that kind of treatment ourselves.

 

However, maybe it is good to keep on working on this and getting her to tolerate and then appreciate more and more contact? At this point we refrain from whole-hearted snuggling and playing, instead simply scratching on the back of the neck when invited and occasionally on the breast. We do want to train her to wear a harness, though, so we'll need to get her used to us manipulating her wings.

 

Any thoughts on this? Are there good reasons to train a bird to snuggle and tolerate touch all over?

[Luvparrots]

Hi domyoburk, there are alot of experts in this forum and those who have multiple greys. There is a great thread called "How do you Cuddle Your Grey". I think it will answer some of your questions. All you need do is go to the white area called "search forum" and type in How do you Cuddle... and numerous threads will pop up. This works for any topic "foraging" "biting" you see lots of comments, advice, etc. I hope this helps and good luck with your Grey.

[siobha9]

There is no real reason why you should cuddle your grey all over. One of mine loves to be cuddled but the other will just about tolerate a head scratch. However it is a good idea to get them used to being touched. A vet may need to move their wings, examine their back or whatever. And as you already pointed out in order to wear a harness it is necessary to be able to move their wings.

 

With my grey who doesnt like cuddles, I am slowly trying to have him get used to light touches, and my holding his wing etc. I have no urgency so I am completely taking it at his pace. As Ursula is a baby it should be easier for you to do this.

[casper]

One of my greys is about 5 months old and loves nothing more than to be cuddled. I find them easier to handle at this age and like Siobhan has said you will make things easier if you need a vet visit etc.

Just take your time, do this at your and your greys pace.

I think this is really important if you plan on harness traing the grey.

Thye are all so different, my eldest grey never liked to be touched really, he likes a stroke and a head scratch but thats it,

Good luck and keep us updated.

[lovemyGreys]

We all percieve "cuddles " differently, some greys may just enjoy a head scratch, others will allow you to stroke their wings, some like a little neck tickle, you will need to take it slow & see what your baby enjoys. A word of warning with slightly older birds,Long periods of cuddling and birdie back rubs can increase hormonal production and trigger sexually influenced behaviors. If your bird begins to make weird noises or contorts its body, it may have been sexually triggered

[Animalspirit]

Why do people want to cuddle parrots? I don't think a parrot,and in particular an African Grey parrot, is an animal that really likes to be cuddled. In the wild, an African Grey is only preened by its partner. We humans often prefer to buy our Greys as young as possible, so that they get used to be cuddled. But why should we do so? Do we really want a partner relationship with our bird? Or do we want a bird that doesn't know how to really behave lika an African Grey should do?

 

In other species of parrots, especially the south-american parrots, we see that other family members and friends within the flock preen each other. In my own flock I observed the amazons preening several other birds, and also feeding them. My timneh grey is a wild-caught 40-something male bird, that really doesn't like to be touched. I come across many African Greys that are cuddled and hand-fed, that have many problems, among them plucking and agressiveness.

 

Of course, you can train your bird in accepting a scratch on the head. And if Fernando, my timneh, really wants to be scratched, I will train him to get over his fear. But the question is: does he really want?

[Animalspirit]

Besides: we humans are primates, like chimpansees, gorilla's, Orang Utans and Bonobo's. If we like eacht other, we hug and cuddle. But parrots are not primates, they have a totally different "etiquette".

[domyoburk]

luvparrots wrote:

Hi domyoburk, there are alot of experts in this forum and those who have multiple greys. There is a great thread called "How do you Cuddle Your Grey". I think it will answer some of your questions. All you need do is go to the white area called "search forum" and type in How do you Cuddle... and numerous threads will pop up. This works for any topic "foraging" "biting" you see lots of comments, advice, etc. I hope this helps and good luck with your Grey.

 

Thanks for the advice on what thread to check out. I had searched for "touch" and all related things I could think of, but not cuddle!

 

Also thanks for everyone's feedback on touching and cuddling. It gives me confidence to continue to be patient and encourage Ursula to let us touch her all over, but also to trust my instinct to respect her personality and wish not to be touched at times. (By the way, we can always ask her to step up, and we can always touch her feet.)

[Perch]

I found this thread very interesting, and in particular the thoughts of Animalspirit.

 

I am expressing my fondness for my birds by holding them closely and scratching them. This interaction is almost patently human. Is this the kind of interaction the bird desires...or just us?

 

A feathered philosophical question so-to-speak.

[Dave007]

An important reason to letting a parrot get used to being touched by humans has to do with creating the socialization process. Pet parrots don't live in the wild. If a person comes across a flock of parrots in the wild those birds would't let any people touch them. We would be considered predators. They would seriously bite and if cornered, would probably get injured. I've never heard anything concerning a bird getting into plucking or aggressiveness habits because of a good human/bird relationship was instituted or begun from when the bird was a baby, especially touching. I do know that those two habits can develop when there's no contact between the two. If the human/bird relatioonship ( including touching)was so wrong, bird being wild would never consent to it. If a much older bird who hasn't had a stable relationship in the past and doesn't wanna be touched, it isn't because of it's age but because of a past situation. In the home as well as in the wild, there must be some type of a flock commander. The owners take over that role. yes, in the wild they preen each other but also bite each other and neither is bothered. At home, if people start to stick food in their mouthes and try to feed the same way as is done in the wild, trouble is just around the corner.

In shelters/rescue and adoption centers, many of the birds that are there have many problems because they didn't have different types of contact with the owners, the three major ones being biting and plucking and emotional problems. All of these places recommend that some type of physical bonding be started in order for the birds to calm down. Many times it's too late for that to happen swo people take those birds home just to provide a safe environment but they also realize that the birds won't change.

Love my greys has a number of greys and I doubt that she's gonna say that her birds are pluckers or aggressive because of a physical relationship that she probably started a while back.

Speaking of problem birds, I have a number of greys too. One was a special needs bird who abused himself because of no human contact. That bird is no longer a special needs birds and what brought that on was instituting physical contact which the bird never had.

Speaking of aggressive birds, I too have a TAG who is now almost 15 yrs old andwas a big time serious biter. The previous owners were extremely afraid of that bird. There was no physical contact because of their fear. It took me over a year to get the bird to stop that behavior. One of those things that was instituted was physical handling by both my wife and I. Today, that bird won't bite any of my other birds, me or my wife. At one time that's all he lived for--biting, biting, biting.

""""Besides: we humans are primates, like chimpansees, gorilla's, Orang Utans and Bonobo's. If we like eacht other, we hug and cuddle. But parrots are not primates, they have a totally different "etiquette"."""""

We might be somewhat like the animals above in that those animals are predators and we people have the capability of being predators. Parrots aren't predators. They're prey animals and function best in an environment where there's a connection to a leader which in the home is us.

[Carolyn]

Very Very well put Dave,

Karma to you{Love-000200BF}

 

Carolyn & Mika

[danmcq]

This has turned into a really great thread with thoughts on both sides of the fence.

 

A wild anything, due to fear, will certainly not seek out a close relationship with a human in most cases. However, a captive raised or bred animal or bird, will normally seek out the attention of a human, due to the familiarity engendered to it through the raising and dependence upon them for survival.

 

Our Grey seeks out desires cuddling, scratching and other interactions from his most loved human, my wife. He will seek them out from me also, but much less so often.

 

The plucking or other odd behaviours in Greys and other Parrots, is normally the visual display of an underlying problem such as lack of attention, upset or nervous over a change in their living area or other such causes, which could even be health related that needs medical attention to correct.

 

Again, great thread that gives many things to contemplate. :-)

[Perch]

Realizing that I am way new at this, I like to listen to the different points of view, and tips from experience. Especially since no two people...much less birds...are alike. To many dynamics to have one constant set of behaviors.

 

That said my Grey, still no name yet, was perched contently in the kitchen above the sink. He / she stepped up and went with me to sit down for a while and watch some random sit-com in the family room. The bird walked off my hand, into my lap, and covered itself with my flannel shirt. I swear it made a noise that almost sounded like purring.

 

We have had our new friend for 6 days. While he was on my lap, he didn't really want the petting; but he was very happy to be snuggled-in.

 

I think it is also remarkable that it will go to and perch on my 9 year-old son, no problem.

[she]

Parrots are like people, some are more tactile than others. I am of the oppinion that if my birds want a head scratch or cuddle thats fine but I will not push the issue with them. Its up to them.Some days my grey is very cuddly and friendly other days he does not want to know. I respect that and feel he respects me more because of this..sheila

[cflanny]

My baby loves to cuddle and usually intiates it himself I dont push the issue. When I say cuddle I mean cuddle he comes under my chin and lays on his side and rubs his head and trys to bury it in my neck and the more I hug him the more he gets into it

 

My opinion is if you are consistent and make sure he makes the decision on when and where its ok . But if you let the honeymoon end and start to not give him the same interaction hes used to then this is when you will run into issues. You have hopefully made a life long commitment to the well being and happiness of this friend and if he gets the physical touch he seeks or doesnt he should remain well rounded. Alot of our friends have not had this consistency since babys and therefore they should make the call on whats proper and whats not.

[musicluvr]

I have to disagree with the opinion of thinking that greys who have been handled/touched should be forced:

 

"All of these places recommend that some type of physical bonding be started in order for the birds to calm down."

 

I believe the STRESS of being approached physically when the bird has no need or interest is damaging to it's trust in us, and has the opposite effect of "calming down." And let's face it, if the owner is not aware of improper petting/stroking, then the bond becomes that of a mate, and you start all sorts of trouble!

 

We need to recognize that we really don't know 100% of what these wild animals need. They operate by instinct b/c they are not very far removed from their ancestors. Until we remember that, I'm afraid the human's need to stroke will outweigh the need of the bird, and we will continue to find them in rescue situations. Not because we haven't touched them, but because we HAVE TOO MUCH. It's all very scientific and hormonal, and we can't begin to understand it.

[zandische]

I just came across this very interesting discussion. I've actually been working on an article about the parrot-human relationship over the last week and this speaks to some of the points I'm writing about.

 

Animalspirit wrote:

Why do people want to cuddle parrots? I don't think a parrot,and in particular an African Grey parrot, is an animal that really likes to be cuddled. In the wild, an African Grey is only preened by its partner. We humans often prefer to buy our Greys as young as possible, so that they get used to be cuddled. But why should we do so? Do we really want a partner relationship with our bird? Or do we want a bird that doesn't know how to really behave lika an African Grey should do?

 

Are we trying to humanize our parrots? Most certainly. Humans are definitely creatures who want to cuddle, and for us, cuddling, snuggling and physical touch are all signs of love and affection. Humans are and always have been driven to seek out love and affection. (Worldly arguments aside!) Therefore, it's not difficult to see why we not only identify with an intelligent species such as a parrot, but also seek to to try to establish the same kinds of bonds with him that we expect from each other. It's a classic situation of humans expecting human traits from the parrot.

 

But is the expectation wrong? For the purist, perhaps, but the purist is someone who does not interact with parrots except to watch them in the wild, because how could a purist accept anything else than a true, natural existence for a parrot? Since we parrot owners are obviously not purists, we have to admit that at some level we have somewhat of a selfish desire to be around our parrot friends. We want certain things from the relationship, which is the whole reason we pursue it in the first place - love, attention, affection, devotion - and we approach attaining these things through the ways that we believe they can be satisfied - hugging, cuddling, kissing etc.

 

In observing the behavior of multiple parrots together at one time, I've found they definitely desire physical contact, even from non-mates. So it would seem that we both share this desire for affection through physical contact. And parrots are really are no different than we are in regard to how they apply their expectations to us - they expect parrot traits from us and even demand them from time to time. These differences are very much like the "cultural differences" between people from two very different countries. We humans have a saying, "Let's just accept each other for who we are." If we apply that to interspecies relationships, then not only do we need to accept, provide for and try to understand parrots for who they are, but we need to accept the things about ourselves that drive us to interact with them.

 

Keeping these things in mind, I think the real question that needs to be asked is whether or not the parrot owner truly desires physical and emotional affection with a parrot in order to fufill the parrot's needs and if so, is that person actively attempting to understand what those needs are?

 

We know that Greys mate for life and it makes sense that they would seek the greatest personal comfort from their mate. Humans are often very similar in our pair bonds. But it has also been shown that wild greys live in very large flocks which consist of many smaller groups of related families. It's not unusual to find a mated pair living with both sets of parents, as well as their offspring and other related parrots. And we know from numerous studies that parrots thrive in a social situations where they are allowed to form many different types of relationships.

 

The problem is that today's modern human is not very focused on living within a gigantic family structure and has become somewhat socially isolated, often pairing off and/or living removed from the main household of parents, siblings, grandparents and various other family members. The human is capbable of self-sustaining living, whereas the parrot depends on the entire cohesion of the flock for his survival. When a baby parrot comes to one of these new homes he's in an alien world in which he is often expected to fill a human role without regard for how he feels about it. We see our needs being fufilled - we mistake them for our sweet "feathered children" - but we very rarely appreciate the scope of the relationship we're starting and what it means for the parrot. Because Grey parrots are not born with many of the skills that come instinctively to other species, they look to their human counterpart for the learning and instruction they need to survive. But we attempt to teach them what we know, which is the way we would teach our own children, and through this instruction they often learn to be more human than parrot, are pressed into performing human functions like cuddling for the sake of pleasing the human, and often have difficulty finding a definitive role in their limited flock because the humans enforce a human heirachy upon them while their natural inclination is something entirely different. It only takes a little common sense to realize this lack of attention to the Grey's needs could lead them to unhappy lives despite all the things the human thinks he is doing to make the Grey happy.

 

So what kind of relationship do we really want with a parrot and how can we make a captive parrot happy? Well, it's my personal belief that parrots and humans bond so tightly to one another because we are both highly empathetic creatures, and that at least for humans, the great emotional satisfaction and joy we derive from sharing such a bond is the reason we seek it out. I also believe this is true for the parrot as well, but unlike us, the pet parrot doesn't usually get to choose this bond and is often required to satisfy his entire emotional requirements of flock life with just one person. The parrot essentially begins its life with humans in a state of subservience and that's really where I think the human-parrot relationship breaks down. Humans need to actively work to support the parrot's needs in order to create a happy relationship for both parties. It definitely behooves the parrot (and particularly Grey Parrot) owner to research and observe these creatures as thoroughly as possible so as to understand how to teach them and interact with them in a way that also provides a way to fufill their needs.

 

Now, speaking from personal experience, my Grey has always wanted to snuggle. That is literally how we first met - she leaped into my arms and crawled up under my chin to snuggle. I can actually feel her happiness when she has physical contact with me and it's rare that when we're together she isn't on me or at least very close by. She's fully flighted and allowed to go where she pleases, and she almost always chooses to follow me whenever I leave a room. She has never climbed under a blanket or snuggled into my arms like I'd expect from a human baby/child, but she will often demand my physical touch on her - through hand play, kisses, head scratches, beak scratches, belly rubs, wing rubs and tail and breast preening. These are things I allow her to choose on her own and if she doesn't want them, I back off, so I think it's a good idea to "listen" to what your Grey wants and offer her the same courtesy and respect you'd offer to other people.

 

Domyoburk - my Grey and I play a game called "the Bird Body." She absolutely loves this game. I will recite all the major parts of her body in a high-pitched, excited voice and touch those parts as I'm saying them. So it goes like this...I'll tug lightly on her tail and say "I've got a birdie tail!" and then scritch her wings and say, "I've got some birdie wings!" and move on to the back, neck, head, beak, breast and underwings. At the very end, I put my hands lightly around her whole body and say, "I've got your bird body!" Not only has this taught her that she can trust my touch to be gentle, caring and playful, but it's direct and affectionate interaction between us that is entirely focused on her. I can tell she likes this interaction because if I stop, she come rushing over, grabs my finger and tugs on it until I play with her some more. I don't get anything out of it other than the sheer joy of seeing my bird having a good time