flying

[n2fisher]

OK .. I'll probably get a ton of people telling me "they do that naturally, don't inhibit it", but .. here goes.

 

Many of you may know Gandalf, my 4-year old grey, from the notes that I've posted. I got him about a year or year and a half ago from my brother-in-law, who with his wife bought him from a good pet store in town. They socialized with him for months in the store before bringing him home. He fell on hard times, and really can't afford a bird right now, so he gave him to me.

 

I work from home, so I'm in the living room with the cage virtually 10 hours a day. I've taken to leaving him to play on the outside of his cage with the door open. That hasn't been a problem for the past 6 months or so, he usually likes playing with the toys that I place on top of his cage while he's out.

 

He's starting two things that are a potential problem: 1) He'll climb all the way down to the floor and walk over to me. 2) twice now he's flown from the cage .. a pretty much angled semi-controlled flight down to the ground. I wasn't watching him both times that he took off, so I don't know if he simply stumbled and was trying to break his fall, or if he was trying to fly.

 

He's flown once from the PVC playgym that I made for him -- usually I have a fun toy on it so he just plays with that, but .. he either lost his balance or just wanted to fly that one time. Again, it was a semi-controlled flight; he ran into the cabinet about 3 inches from the floor -- he evidently has one direction, about 30 degrees on a downward slope. Doesn't know how to turn or control his flight.

 

About a year ago I had his wings clipped and was taking him outside on a stand, no leash or anything. Yes, I know that was a big risk, and I promise not to do it again. Anyway, I really didn't like how he looked with the wings clipped, so I made a pact not to do that again.

 

Anyway, I don't think I would like to have him flying around the house; I pretty much control his pooping now by putting newspaper around the areas where he'll be. If he's flying, a) he's going to be pooping everywhere, and b) he's going to run into my cat at some point. He's fairly well trained-poop wise-will usually look down and see if there is newspaper there, but .. he laughs when he does something and misses the paper. (I guess it doesn't help that I laugh as well .. saying "silly bird" or some such).

 

 

So .. I guess my question is, do I discourage him from learning more about this "flying" thing? My brother-in-law used to spell "f-l-y" around him .. joking that we haven't told the bird that he can f-l-y.. I dunno; I guess most of you will say it's natural for him to fly, perhaps my other question is how do you control the poop if you have a bird flying around your house all day. I don't want to, and I certainly don't want my guests to, sit in a chair and discover that there was something left behind there...

 

 

Thanks for any comments,

[n2fisher]

Oh .. the cat .. they seem to have a truce. The cat will walk by the cage. Gandalf will periodically be walking along the bottom of the cage looking for treats that he's thrown down there, and the cat will put his paw up on the cage, just wondering what this thing is. He has to semi-stand to reach the cage, but he loves walking around the cage with his tail rubbing against the cage.

 

No missing toes on the cat so far, so .. I guess they are semi-friendly. One of the first times we were away, a clump of black hair (it's a black cat mostly, with white front) was found on the floor near the cage, so I presume they came to an agreement.

 

The cat has the run of the house, so while we are away from home he may spend time playing with the bird for all I know.

 

BUT .. if the bird if flying around the house, he's going to naturally encounter the cat.

 

I have an semi-open floor plan; there are no doors between the living room (where the cage is), the dining room, and the kitchen. He can also go up the half-stairs to the bedrooms. There's a door on our bedroom downstairs, but if he's flying he'd pretty much have the run of the house. Again, not something I'm comfortable with at this point.

[siobha9]

Hi Norm,

 

I think clipping is an entirely personal decision weighing all the factors of your home and lifestyle. I have one clipped and one not clipped. I clipped one for several reasons, none of which probably would have been a big enough reason for me on their own, but all of which helped make the decision a no brainer. He chewed furniture and doors, he continually landed on my caiques cage, he was very afraid of us and flew away from us constantly and he wasnt the most graceful flier and had a few near misses with walls etc:unsure:

 

There are many threads here about clipping vs non clipping but at the end of the day only you can make the decision as to what suits you and your grey. Two comments I'd like to make though are since he has been unable to fly for so long he won't really miss it. In fact right now flying is probably scary for him. And cats and birds don't mix so unless you can keep the cat away while he is out, I'd be leaning towards clipping for your grey's saftey;)

 

But, it's your bird, your life, your decision. Good luck with it, its a hard decision to make!

 

 

Siobhan

[lovemyGreys]

As Siobhan has said clipping is a personal choice & one of those subjects that will be debated until the end of time.For what it's worth I'm totally against clipping,birds were given wings to fly,you wouldnt buy a dog & chop it's legs off.

Saying that i Can also appreciate that there are certain circumstances where clipping would be necessary,a birds safety being the main reason.A difficult call for you.

[Suzzique]

As everyone else has said clipping is a personal choice. Alex was clipped on one wing when we got him last year. No one told him that he wasn't suppost to be able to fly clipped. So now that he is finally starting to molt I can't wait for the clipped feathers to fall out and new flights to grow in. It is posible to potty train your bird so that he wont poo where you don't want him to. You can also teach your bird where he is not allowed to go.

 

Martini came to us clipped. However he sees Alex flying all over and so he tries it on occation. Martini will be allowed to grow out his flight feathers and learn to fly.

[dblhelix]

Hi n2fisher,

 

As others have said this is a much debated issue that often brings about strong emotions one way or another. I salute you for asking about it so that you can at least arm yourself with information to decide what you think is best in your situation. Clipping vs Flighted both have some pros and cons. I am in general a strong supported of keeping birds fully flighted. The are many health and emotional issues related to flying for the bird that I think usually far outweigh and risks with keeping them flighted. There are numerous posts on this site covering these issues and I certainly encourage you to read them if you have not already.

 

Remember flying is a LEARNED skill. If your bird is fully feathers but not currently a flier it may take several months to over a year for him to become flight proficient (meaning they can hover, bank, fly up, fly down and land exactly where they intend). The leaning period will be influenced by how much he practices, how determined he is and how much encouragement you provide. Make no mistake, crash landings are part of the learning process but once proficient they are very graceful.

 

Regarding some of your specific concerns, I think a flight proficient bird will be much safer around a cat than a clipped bird. A flighted bird can actually fly away from a situation if needed while a clipped bird is grounded. No where to go.

 

I think over time you will find the pooping is not a big deal. Flighted or not they will have perching areas (mostly defined by you) that they hang out at the most in a given area. That is where most of the poops will be (similar to now in the clipped scenario). As others have said you can have a lot of success with potty training as well with some patience and persistence. It wont be perfect, but it can have a significant impact. You pretty much learn when they have to go and some will learn to hold it and only go where you want. Others will go on command and when you know its about time you take them to a place and say “go poo” or whatever command you use and they will try! Kip is fairly well potty trained but of course as some “accidents”.

 

Flying has the escape risk associated. However, as previously stated, this risk really exists with a clipped bird too. I think with some fairly simple best practices and awareness the risk can be greatly mitigated. Also, a flight proficient bird that gets out is arguably safer with a higher chance of being located because they know how to land and fly down. Many escaped birds fly up up up and away w/o stopping because they are scared and don’t even know how to land and/or fly back down to their owners. Again, no guarantees, everyone needs to take precaution on this issue no matter what.

 

As a general statement, flying is what makes a bird a bird. Their entire system is geared around this. They have FEATHERS!, their muscles, brain, cardiovascular system, hollow bones, pretty much entire being is a built for this. Birds that don’t fly have more health issues associated (heart disease, muscle atrophy, menta/emotional issues etc) It is beautiful to watch them fly and as they do it you can tell they enjoy it. Again I do realize there are some cases where clipping is decided the way to go and there certainly are many happy/healthy clipped birds. But I think that flighted is the better and healthier choice in almost all situations.

 

Keep us posted on your decision in any case. Remember, there is not really a right or wrong. You need to evaluate all the pros/cons given your situation and determine what is best for you and your bird. B)

[n2fisher]

Thanks for the comments; one statement, everyone seems to be focusing on the clipping v.s. not clipping aspect. Is that really my only option? I could keep him caged more of the time, letting him out for shorter periods. I like seeing him out of the cage, though, and I'm sure he's happier (though he has no shortage of toys to play with).

 

Re: training. USUALLY he will get what I call "uppity" when he needs to go, and I'll hold him over a newspaper and he'll go there. "Uppity" is basically not accepting petting as much, moving around a bit, grabbing my fingers with his beak (he has NEVER bit me, knock on wood .. he's held me tightly (once he wanted to get to the floor; I wasn't paying attention to him and my hand was just off to the side, so he grabbed my finger with his beak, jumped off my lap, and using my finger as a perch swung around and landed on the floor .. the finger was sore for a few minutes but no problem), but not ever broken the skin.).

 

I know his "movement" before he needs to go, so I've basically gotten him trained to tell me when he needs to go, but .. as I said, accidents happen sometimes .. usually when I'm not paying attention.

[BaxtersMom]

I am having the same type of issue but I am encouraging Baxter to try and fly because he was a cage bound bird. I also have an open floor plan and if he chooses can fly from one end of the house to the other, but he's not that good at flying. He steadily goes down at an angle too. He has only taken off from the cage 3 times and I don't know if he lost his balance or what. I just heard the flapping. I am encouraging him to fly a little bit only so he can practice landings which aren't too good right now. (Incase of Emergency I want him to have a little experience flying & landing) My cat is my worry, too. My cat acts like she could care less about the birds and has never even looked at them with too much excitement but I would never trust her completely alone. When I have to leave the house I put the birds in their cages while I am out because of risks other than the cat. I work at home too so when we are all here which is most of the time, the cage doors are open,my birds are on top of their cages, my cat is out and about in the house but I try to always know what is going on or the moods that they are in. No one really seems to care about the others. I also have a dog, too about the same size as my cat :laugh: . They seem to all be living in harmony together. I just stay aware of everything but not worrying too much untill I see behavior that would cause concern from the cat, dog or other birds. Don't know if that helped but thats how I do it. I have also heard that the bird got loose and the cat or dog ate it so I always keep that in my mind too.

 

I wasn't against clipping their wings and actually thought I would clip Baxters wings so he would not fly away. Then I heard stories that the wings were clipped on birds and they flew away the same day. I think wing clipping could be a false sense of security. I have nothing against it but I will never clip my birds wings.

 

The only bird of mine that flies around the house is Bonkers my Conure. He usually just flies to me or my husband or lands on my husband chair. There have been several times he has left little "deposits" behind:angry: And I clean them up as quick as I see them. I can't stand cleaning up the poop. So when he does fly, I give some attention on my finger with a baby blanket on my lap or where ever he can "drop" things. After a few pets, he goes back to his cage and is usually satisfied. Since Bonkers is so friendly and likes to ride on shoulder I have a slouchy button bird "bird shirt" that I put on and he can poop his brains out on that one:woohoo: , that's what its for;)<br><br>Post edited by: BaxtersMom, at: 2008/09/05 19:13

[n2fisher]

Thanks BaxtersMom for the reply! For the past hour Gandalf has been sitting contentedly in his cage on one of his favorite perches with the door wide open. I had him in the kitchen on his playstand for a while while I ate lunch; he liked the ham and turned down the turkey, ate a little lettuce and a bit more tomato... then attacked the chew toy on his playstand for a while. So perhaps he's worn out and just wants to rest for now.

 

Sounds like your situation is very much like mine. I appreciate the comments. My cat is fully declawed, so if it came down to it, I presume the bird would win in any fight, but of course I never want it to come to that.

[dblhelix]

If it came down to it (like a real fight), the cat would kill the bird hands down, claws or not. Think of the body mass alone, most house cats are what around 15 pounds? Most greys are say around 500 grams...thats about 1 pound of bird to 15 pounds of cat (with lots of sharp teeth). Thats like me (weighing 180 pounds) trying to take on a very agile something or someone weighing 2700 pounds. Cat wins if it ever comes to it.

 

All the more reason to keep him flighted! <br><br>Post edited by: dblhelix, at: 2008/09/06 09:07

[danmcq]

As Mark (dblhelix) has stated. A cat or dog, regardless of size or apparent temperament is a very real and dangerous threat to any Parrot of any size.

 

Unfortunately, Dogs and Cats are sight and chase oriented. When something is moving or flapping, it is natural instinct to give chase and try to capture it. It could even be a play like attempt that could result in serious damage or death to a Parrot.

 

We are letting Dayo become fully flighted as his previously clipped primaries molt out. He had a minimum clip to begin with and could maintain a level flight for atleast 30 feet. Just that flight ability has now saved him 2x from our playful dobies that get excited when least expected. As Mark stated, once fully flighted, he can gain altitude instantly and be clear of any thing he feels a threat from.

 

The poop issue as others have stated can be worked around. These Parrots are very intelligent creatures and learn quickly when trained properly. It sounds like you already have a good handle on the poop issue and assigned target for your Grey.

 

But, as others have said, the decision is entirely yours based upon your circumstances. :-)

[judygram]

The cat would win in a fight with a grey and maybe not because the cat is bigger but because if the cat broke the grey's skin then its bacteria would eventually kill the grey, thats my understanding that cat saliva is fatal to greys.

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong.