Gram Bacteria

[Toni]

Hey does anyone know what is Gram Bacteria ? How does a bird get it?

I was informed from this perosn who has my breeder Amazons that he had to take him in for this yesterday but is being treated. Which is ok I dont plan on getting them until August 1st. So any knowledge of this would help.Thanx.

[Talon]

It is a test that my vet does regularly on Talon. It tells them how much bad bacteria they have in their system. Usually they treat it if the numbers are too high, and then retest after 2 months. They will always have some bacteria, but when it gets too high, they treat it as I believe it can lead to other things.

I know this isn't a very good explanation, so I am sure others will research it and give us better answers!

 

Talon has been treated for this once when we first got her, and 3 other times. Usually after some stress or exposure to cold drafts. I think she has a tendency for this, as others I know have never had a problem. There are no symptoms usually.

 

Here is a couple of articles for further info!

 

http://www.cockatiels.org/articles/Diseases/bacterial.html

 

 

http://www.parrottalk.com/gram-stain.htm<br><br>Post edited by: Talon, at: 2008/07/11 16:03

[Toni]

Thank you so much for the links.I will get to reading them now.Very much appreciated.

[spookyhurst]

When I adopted Nikko, she tested positive for a gram negative bacteria. I think it was something like acineobacter. She took Cipro for a week to treat it. The rescue said it probably took hold of Nikko due to the stress of being surrendered by her original owner.

[Toni]

Ok so this is a common bacteria and really nothing to worry about if treated?

[Talon]

Yes, as long as you treat for it, things will be fine. Don't forget to retest just to be on the safe side.

[spookyhurst]

Yes, Nikko was retested 2 weeks after completing the antibiotics to make sure she had kicked it.

[Zpyder]

Ok those links are giving false information. Gram negative bacteria is not the bad guys and it is impossible to put a percentage on what is good for each bird because each bird has it's own normal flora different from any other bird depending on it's environment.

 

Gram negative bacteria is normal to the colon and helps with digestion, it is also normal flora in the mouth. You cannot use a gram stain to diagnose a bacterial infection and the information in those articles about the bacteria is completely wrong. I do this for a living and I am a little concerned that this information is being passed along.

 

I am happy to answer any questions anyone may have in regards to bacteria but please do not take what is in those articles as fact because it is simply not good info.

[kittykittykitty]

Hi! In this case "Gram" refers to a kind of stain used to identify bacteria. There are both positive and negative, meaning how the organism responded to the staining. Some can cause disease while others do not so it is important to follow your vet's advice if treatment is recommended. kittykittykitty

[Zpyder]

Toni wrote:

Ok so this is a common bacteria and really nothing to worry about if treated?

 

I would not just treat it without other factors such as a history of illness in a bird, weightloss, diarrhea, ect. Every bird has what is considered normal flora and when you treat with antibiotics you kill all the normal flora not just the bad bacteria(if it is actually bad). This leaves your bird without a normal healthy defense against bad bacteria.

 

Also treating with the wrong antibiotic can cause additional health problems. I would be very concerned if a vet prescribed an antibiotic for a healthy appearing bird. This is a very dangerous practice that many of us microbiologists wish that doctors and vets would get away from.

 

I was looking at some articles online about what is considered normal flora in a bird and the information I found was vague. I will do some more research with the stuff available to me through my association and let you know what I find out. I suspect there hasn't been a whole lot of research in this area.

[danmcq]

Toni - The Vet is correct in the diagnosis, as the other members vets here were also in their diagnosis.

 

Gram Stains are the tool used to quickly diagnose a Bacterial problem.

 

As everyone knows, there are many different types of Bacteria. Some types are needed for good health. Some are harmful when present in high quantities and will result in death of the host if not treated.

 

Many species of Gram-negative bacteria are pathogenic, meaning they can cause disease in the host organism, Humans, Greys, other Parrots etc..

 

This pathogenic capability is usually associated with certain components of Gram-negative cell walls, in particular the lipopolysaccharide (also known as LPS or endotoxin) layer. LPS triggers an innate immune response characterized by cytokine production and immune system activation. Inflammation is a common result of cytokine production, which can also produce host toxicity.

 

Zpyder, is correct in the sense of Bacteria being present in the Colon, but it is also present through out every living beings outer and inner body. There are good and necessary Bacteria, but it is the "Bad" Bacteria the vets are checking for.

 

The proteobacteria are a major group of Gram-negative bacteria, including Escherichia coli, Salmonella, and other Enterobacteriaceae, Pseudomonas, Moraxella, Helicobacter, Stenotrophomonas, Bdellovibrio, acetic acid bacteria, Legionella and alpha-proteobacteria as Wolbachia and many others. Other notable groups of Gram-negative bacteria include the cyanobacteria, spirochaetes, green sulfur and green non-sulfur bacteria.

 

Medically relevant Gram-negative cocci include three organisms, which cause a sexually transmitted disease (Neisseria gonorrhoeae), a meningitis (Neisseria meningitidis), and respiratory symptoms (Moraxella catarrhalis).

 

Medically relevant Gram-negative bacilli include a multitude of species. Some of them primarily cause respiratory problems (Hemophilus influenzae, Klebsiella pneumoniae, Legionella pneumophila, Pseudomonas aeruginosa), primarily urinary problems (Escherichia coli, Proteus mirabilis, Enterobacter cloacae, Serratia marcescens), and primarily gastrointestinal problems (Helicobacter pylori, Salmonella enteritidis, Salmonella typhi).

 

Gram negative bacteria associated with nosocomial infections include Acinetobacter baumanii, which cause bacteremia, secondary meningitis, and ventilator-associated pneumonia in intensive care units of hospital establishments.

 

I hope this sets the record straight........

[Toni]

ok I understand now.Thanx evr1 for Ur help

[Zpyder]

danmcq wrote:

Many species of Gram-negative bacteria are pathogenic, meaning they can cause disease in the host organism, Humans, Greys, other Parrots etc..

 

This pathogenic capability is usually associated with certain components of Gram-negative cell walls, in particular the lipopolysaccharide (also known as LPS or endotoxin) layer. LPS triggers an innate immune response characterized by cytokine production and immune system activation. Inflammation is a common result of cytokine production, which can also produce host toxicity.

 

 

This statement is incorrect. Not just gram negatives are pathogenic but also gram positives. It is not the bacteria that is just pathogenic but where and in what instance the bacteria are present. What for some may be pathogenic is for some normal flora. A gram stain only gives a clue as to what is present, it is the culture that lets the vet know what is the problem. Many beneficial bacteria look identical to pathogens in a gram stain.

 

A primary gram positive bacteria that is pathogenic in some cases is MRSA but this same bacteria is normal flora for many people and never cause them a problem.

 

Some gram negatives like Klebsiella Pneumoniae can be a pathogen but some have it as normal flora. Acinetobacter is normal flora of the skin and can be a pathogen given the right conditions.

 

You have millions of bacteria that live on you in harmony and so does your bird. The fact that your bird lives in your home exposes your bird to your normal flora and can become normal flora for your bird. Do not let Gram negative scare you! It is not a bad bacteria based on it's staining properties alone!

[danmcq]

Zpyder wrote:

[quote

You have millions of bacteria that live on you in harmony and so does your bird. The fact that your bird lives in your home exposes your bird to your normal flora and can become normal flora for your bird. Do not let Gram negative scare you! It is not a bad bacteria based on it's staining properties alone!

 

In a nutshell, your correct. I was trying to keep this simple.

 

The vet is not looking at just the stain. They are looking at the analytical results and counts. Depending on the presence, quantity and type, they then determine if treatment is needed.