Blood feather update

[mas]

Hey guys,

 

I think it is a broken blood feather Zahzu has - last night 6 more drops of blood appeared on newspaper at bottom of her cage, this morning one drop, and when i put my fingers under her wing to apply aloe (she bit me and jumped away) - i had blood on my fingers. The vet can only help us at 4.30pm, which is 1hr15mins away...and he is the same vet that cut her nail/beak too short - the other vet in our town that deals with birds (and breeds greys so i hear) is very unwell; no promises when he'll be returning to work.

 

I'm really worried about taking Zahzu to this same vet.

 

I think he's going to suggest putting her under anaesthetic again and removing damaged feathers - what do you all think about this?

 

Can the broken blood feather be removed without her having to go under (which means he can do it today, rather than her having to starve for 8 hours before anaesthetic)?

 

Will it hurt a lot?

 

I notice whenever I try to touch her back/wings she growls and gets upset... I think this is coz she's not happy about me bathing her for one (I put her into the kitchen sink - she hates it and jumps out pronto!); and also she's plucking at the feathers on the back of her wings so maybe she's sensitive about that too??

 

I'm trying so so hard - I'm busy all day threading pasta onto strings, scrunching up paper, shredding newspaper, doing training (we can shake hands, wave, turn around and fetch objects).... i've renovated her cage - put more perches in, stuff to shred... i put aloe on her skin (she hates it)! I know it's a waiting game, but I just feel now with this bleeding feather or skin or whatever it is that we are going backwards rather than forwards.

 

*sigh* ok, 30mins till i can leave home and take her to the vet - just want the vet trip over with too - she's not happy about going to the vet usually - she gets in her carrier fine but is always really quite when we there, and quite in the car.

 

-Sameera

[judygram]

Yes they can remove a blood feather without putting her under anesthesia and it really does need removing if it is still bleeding.

 

I wouldn't be real happy about taking her to the same vet that you had a problem with before but she does need this feather removed so just grin and bear it for the time being. I would continue to look around for another avian vet for I would not use this one for anything but an emergency.

 

You really need to take her some places besides just the vet's office so she can get used to going in the car. She needs to go places that are fun for her so she will not associate car rides as just a trip to the vet and stress out.

[Sevi]

Like Judy said, she doesn't need to be put under to remove a blood feather and since you can't stop the bleeding or reach it, removal is really the only option.

 

If its a primary flight feather, it will be pretty painful to pull out, so its definitely best if the vet does it. Not only because they're deep and difficult to pull cleanly for the inexperienced, but also because no-one wants to be associated with that.

 

Edison's veterinarian is about an hour and a half away, two if there's traffic. I'm very comfortable with him and that makes all the difference. I would search for a vet you like- no matter how far away they may be, it's worth it for your baby.

 

I wish you and Zahzu good luck.<br><br>Post edited by: Sevi, at: 2008/06/27 15:53

[BMustee]

Yes, if the feather keeps opening up and you are not able to pack it with flower then it needs to come out. I have removed a number of broken blood feathers at the store...mostly on the macaws...and they get over it pretty quick. I would say that if you can't get control over him and be able to pull it out in one quick pluck then a vet should do it for sure. Plus what Sevi said, you don't want your baby to associate you with the feather removal. I wouldn't be "scared" at this point as long as you are going to the vet because it's not bleeding all oer the place. If it was all out hemeraging and there was blood everywhere I would tell you to pull it yourself. Also, you def. don't need to have Zahzu going under to have it done...don't let them tell you he does.

[mas]

Oh dear

What an awful trip to the vet.

We got in the car and to the vet and were happy - talking saying "cuckoo"...then the vet asked me to hold Zahzu while he pulls out the feather - I was so nervous and asked if someone else can do it, and the vet got so irritated and told me how to hold her - I did my best but Zahzu managed to nip at the vet and he lost his temper - practically threw her back in her carry cage and said "tell me if you can't hold her". So I said that I can't - I had already indicated I was uncomfortable - and then he said "so I can't help you".

Then there was blood - and he saw that and went away and comes storming back in, takes Zahzu and says he's putting her under anesthetic. After that he sorta calmed down and we apologised profusely about the bite. But really, this incident upset me a lot.

Anyway, the feather was removed under anesthetic

and now she has antibiotics for the next 5 days.

While we were in the car on way home she was plucking like mad - counted about 20 feathers or more that were pulled out.

 

Anyway,

Vet has reccommended since she doesn't have a sprayer misting, that we can use the spray bottle to stop her plucking - he said whenever we see her plucking we say no, give her a tiny spray and walk away for about half an hour.

What do you all think about this???

It goes against a positive reinforcement method...but he said it is behaviour modification.

He also said whenever she goes into her cage we must reward her with a seed.

 

Geez...what a drama.

 

Any help or advice will be appreciated.

 

-Sameera

[Acappella]

No, No, No, No, No. Everything I've read says that kind of behaviour modification absolutely does not work with birds. They're not dogs!!! Their flock metality is completely different. Trust your instincts and find another vet asap!

 

Did the vet towel her over her head before he asked you to hold her so that at least she couldn't see who was holding her and associate you with the pain? If she was towelled and the feather was pulled then you could have made a big performance of 'rescuing' her and not damage the trust you're building. Here's another example of a vet who puts his/her own fragile ego above the well-being of the animals and the worry of their owners.

 

I'd just let her have a quiet couple of days with lots of talking, laughing, from you, which I'm sure you're already doing. It may take a little while for her to recover from this vet visit, and longer to stop the plucking, but just keep reminding yourself that a few days, weeks, or even months, aren't much in the life of a grey. You probably want to hold her and cuddle her and tell her it's going to be ok. This is when having a bird that isn't yet comfortable with being held is really hard on us parronts. Here's a cyber hug for you and a cyber kiss for Zahzu. XO

[Sevi]

I typed this out at work and I guess it took so long that it timed out and I had to relogin and write it again :lol: :

 

I'm so sorry to hear about your vet troubles Sameera, but at least the feather is out. And poor Zahzu

 

I can't believe he pulled it with her anesthetized, whether she bit him or not. A bite is not a reason to put a bird under. Is he an avian veterinarian? I just can't imagine mine doing that... Edison loathes the vet- growls like mad, and is super wriggle-y but he's got that vet grip that keeps him under control. I've had a broken blood feather pulled by him with Edison just securely grasped.

I would definitely look for a different vet were I in your situation.

 

I can't really give you advice on the water for plucking (as I, thankfully, haven't had to deal with that yet and hopefully I don't), but it does seem anti-positive-reinforcment to me. I don't think I would try it on Edison.

 

I hope Zahzu and yourself recuperate well and take it easy.

 

Edit: I fully agree with Acapella.<br><br>Post edited by: Sevi, at: 2008/06/27 18:56

[mas]

We are most definately going to have to find another vet!

He said in a week or so if she is still plucking we must bring her back and he'll do a 'full workup' (do all the tests to determine what is going on). I dont understand why he couldn't have just done it while she was under in the first place. Also, I thought they would have an assistant to help rather than a scared owner! Anyway - what is done is done.

Zahzu is sleeping.

I'm very uncomfortable with the spraying thing - it seem so cruel - and if i shout at her and spray her that is getting attention - and then I leave her - that would confuse her right?

So, whenever I see her doing it I'll walk away - but maybe for the 30mins he suggested??? What do you all think?

I'm just thinking if I go away for 30mins - that means I may need to move her cage - she's next to our computer in our living room - and we have a 1bedroom flat... other option is there is a little space we might fit her into in the kitchen. Will it really stress her out moving? She often chills out with me in the kitchen on her 'tree' so she is comfortable in that environment.

Anyway, Zahzu doesn't mind kisses so she's going to gt heaps of kisses. Poor baby.

 

I'm sorry I've got so many questions and so much to say - in a way this forum is helping me keep really calm and cope! without you guys I'd be going bonkers I"m sure!:whistle:

 

Also, the vet said that we shouldnt be putting aloe on her because its going to irritate the skin????

 

Oh, and this vet is NOT a proper avian vet - he just works with birds more than any other vet in town.

But ya, will def try our best to find someone else!

[judygram]

I am appalled at the behavior of this vet, I wouldn't take my bird in to see him again for no amount of money, he is worthless. I would find myself another vet even if it means a long drive, he has no business handling birds.

 

I am so sorry your experience with this vet has upset you so much and to think of what Zahzu has been thru so far but what he did is unforgiveable in my book.

 

He sounds like he doesn't know his *** from a hole in the ground so don't go along with anything he said.:angry:

[Tycos_mom]

You need to find a certified avian vet there has to be one some where around. I have to travel to another town to go to my vet its only about an hour drive but she's great and I like her alot. Ive even had her call me just to see how one of my birds was doing after a vist. thats almost unheard of. And she also would never make me hold my own bird if I felt uncomfortable with it thats what assistance are for. I like to be the rescuer not the one the bird blames for being uncomfortable Idon't ever hold my own bird at the vet even if she offers to towel her first I won't what if that towel slips and she see me. Blood feathers I pull them myself on my smaller birds so I do know how I've never had a broken blood feather on my big birds so I don't know what I would do in that situation I thnk it would depend on how badly it was bleeding if it wasn't bleeding to badly I'd probubly take her to the vet but if it was pouring blood I would pull it my self and deal with the trust issues later. I feel so bad for you and your bird. do you put the aloe in her water sprayer and dilute it if so I can't see how that would irritate the skin. that will help sooth it this vet does not know anything about birds thats quite obvious to me. Find someone else to go too.

 

[mas]

I totally agree with everyone - I had a gut feeling that it is not going to be a pleasant trip to the vet - but we weren't able to pull the feather ourselves so we did what we had to do.

The vet didn't clean up the blood on her soft feathers while she was sleeping - so now she's plucked them all out because they were soiled with a lot of crusty blood! I'm so upset!

She's got like a bald spot 2cm x 2cm or so (i just got a glance at it so can't be sure).

 

Anyway, as I was saying her cage is next to our computer and tv and stuff - so we are here all the time - if I'm to walk away and ignore her - how long should I leave her alone for? Can I be on the computer and just not look at her or talk to her?

She seems to get the idea that I'm leaving her now when I walk away.

 

I just feel like crying about this whole thing - it's awful.

 

I have earned a whole lot more respect for mothers, fathers and caregives of children! If this is how I feel over a sick/troubled bird - I cannot imagine the heartache parents must go through!

 

-S

[mas]

Oh - she doesn't have a bald patch at all! phew. it was an area where she's getting pin feathers on her body.

 

I was doing the ignoring when she plucks thing and left the room (spying on her in a reflection on a window - do you think she'll see me?? lol - if i can see her i'm sure she can see me!); anyway, she was calling 'cuckoo' - my husband!!! - and i didn't go to her, so she flew (more like dropped) from her cage and came to find me.

 

So, when i'm doing the ignoring thing do I put her back in her cage and walk away? or can i leave her out of her cage?

[M2MM]

That vet should be SHOT (IMO)! What an idiot! The owner should NEVER hold the bird during any procedure, and the vet should NEVER lose his temper in front of an animal for ANY reason.

 

My vets are what I call BIRD-FRIENDLY - I don't know if they are necessarily certified avian vets, but they know they medicine, and are super sweet with birds. That's what's important after all. They also have sufficient, and properly trained staff to be their assistants.

 

The water spraying method is totally out-dated, so this guy's knowledge is too old to be usable. Don't spray your bird for plucking! Don't walk away from her. BUT, you should ignore the plucking. If it's due to irritation, get some Bird Soother Spray (an aloe/water mix with a topical anesthesia that's specific for birds). Apply only to the affected area (instructions are on the bottle), but if you can't get that, use an aloe juice/water mix (50/50) and gently spray the entire bird.

 

Treat your bird as you normally do. Take her out, play with her, let her run around on her tree in the kitchen. It's when we treat them differently that we can cause/maintain a lot of their "neurotic" behaviours.

 

I have a parrotlet that plucks, but it's caused by a medical condition (elevated liver enzymes that we can't seem to get under control regardless of medications and other treatments.) So, I still medicate him, but treat him as I would normally. He is healthy otherwise. He gets lots of good food and enjoys his life regardless of his condition.

 

We used to keep cockatiels and had to pluck feathers on them occasionally. They don't like it, of course, but they got over it quick enough. Get yourself a pair of locking forceps (eBay, hardware store, & medical supply stores carry them) this tool is much easier to use on a broken blood feather than needle nosed pliers which can be clumsy.

 

Learn to towel your bird (if you don't know how yet), it's an essential skill when you keep a bird. Try YouTube - they have some good instructional videos about procedures for handling birds.

 

Sorry to ramble on so. I hope you succeed in finding a GOOD vet (avian certified or just avian friendly), your Gray deserves the best you can find.

 

Good luck!

[Anmlhggr]

Oh, Mas, I am soo sorry about the whole ordeal. It sounds just awful! Make sure to find another vet ASAP! I would have killed him after the feather was removed...what a you-know-what.

 

I would think that as long as there is nothing that she can get hurt on / destroy while she's out, go a head and leave her out...but I'm sure there is someone here who can give you a more knowledgeable explanation.

[BMustee]

Your vet is a douche!!!!!!!

 

I can't really say anything new, I agree with what everyone else had said.

[mas]

Morning guys!

Husband and I were discussing this vet - and yup - conclusion is exactly what you say BMustee!

Anyway, we are on the hunt for another vet which is the main thing.

Thanks guys for all your support again!

-Sameera

[M2MM]

Glad to hear it!

 

Best of luck in your search!

 

{Communicate-0002011B}

[danmcq]

Oh Sameera, I am so sorry to hear of the ordeal you have gone through. The others have all given great advice and comments. A change of vets is definitely in order.

[Acappella]

Sameera, re: your question about how long you should ignore a bird for bad behaviour, you can pretty much apply child psychology. If you accept that a grey reaches the equivalent of a human toddler emotionally, then 30 minutes is way too long for what is essentially a 'time out'. A time out for a chld should be about as long as the child's age in years. So a one-year old's time out is about one minute. Any longer and they no longer associate the time-out with the associated unwanted behaviour.

 

That being said, I'm not at all sure that walking away from plucking will help. Turning your back, removing yourself from the bird's sight for a couple of minutes, will be more effective to diminish things like screaming. From a psycological angle again, if you're walking away from plucking then the 'punishment' is the withdrawal of your attention and company. It will only work to stop the plucking if pulling out her feathers is an attempt to get extra attention from you. From what I've read, birds don't pluck to get attention initially, but for physical or emotional problems or anxiety. As long as you don't react to her pulling a feather by making a big fuss (lots of vocalization, cuddles, kisses ...) she won't learn to associate plucking with attention.

 

I can empathise with your feeling like crying sometimes. Dorian had me on the floor in tears a couple of days ago (I'll update later on today) All we want to do is make them safe and happy, but they can't understand that even when our actions scare them, we're just trying to love them. Give Zahzu lots of time and space to settle back into her routine, lots of praise and attention when you 'catch' her doing something good, and keep looking for another vet. Maybe there's a bird rescue or even a zoo that you could call for a reference? Here's another cyber hug for you, and a kiss for your baby from Dorian and me. XO

[prrthead]

Dear Sameera,

I know how having a vet from Hell is like. I had to take my little boy to one not knowing at the time that she was and had he get hurt at her office. After about two weeks the cut started bleeding again and she refused to see him so please, please find another vet. I did find one I'll be taking Echo too and he is all of 1 1/2 away. But like everyone is telling you it is well worth it. These babies rely on us and we have to do whatever it takes to make them a happy bird. Good luck in your quest! My best to you and your little girl.

Mary

[prrthead]

Dear Sameera,

I know how having a vet from Hell is like. I had to take my little boy to one not knowing at the time that she was and had he get hurt at her office. After about two weeks the cut started bleeding again and she refused to see him so please, please find another vet. I did find one I'll be taking Echo too and he is all of 1 1/2 away. But like everyone is telling you it is well worth it. These babies rely on us and we have to do whatever it takes to make them a happy bird. Good luck in your quest! My best to you and your little girl.

Mary