Acappella Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 I feel like I'm going to cry. Another battle of the wills with Dorian today. It was beautiful out and I was spending the whole afternoon in the garden. I can hear Dorian calling and calling for me and I decided he was coming out with me. Had the usual dramatics getting him to let go of his cage. I had to use a stick to herd him towards an exterior perch where I could get him to a dead end and he has to step on to my hand. It's the first time I've done that, but it was either that or gloves or a towel. He's a perfect angel once he's on my hand, steps up beautifully, has never bitten me. So we went outside and I put his cage up on his stand in a sheltered part of the patio where he could always see me. He didn't talk or eat while he was out, but he did keep making contact calls with me and I just talked to him as usual, telling him what I was doing. I'm sure the neighbours think I'm nuts! Anyway, it started to rain so I picked him up cage and all and moved him back downstairs onto the floor in front of his cage. I opened the door and asked him to step up, and he lunged for me. Actually bruised my hand, you know, the meaty part between thumb and index finger. I did the sad face, sad voice, 'no bite' gave him a second and tried again. Long story short, it's almost four hours later and he's still in the small cage. I've put it in the office here with me and he's eating his supper and chatting away. So here's what I think I've decided to do, but I want your advice. I haven't had his cage apart for a total cleaning since he moved here in October, because he's always in it. Also, the only perch inside his cage is a dowel that runs its' length that I've wanted to replace since day one because I know it's not good for his feet. I have new perches that I've been moving around the room close to his cage for a couple of weeks, and he's been on them outside so I don't think he's scared of them anymore. I'm going out for a couple of hours tonight, and he's had a stressful day, so I thought I'd just leave him in the small cage overnight here in the office and put him to bed when I go out. Tomorrow I want to let him watch while I clean his cage, change the perches, and put in his favourite toys. Then comes the battle. I'm going to try to video what we go through when I'm trying to get him out of a cage so you guys can tell me what I'm doing wrong. I really am almost in tears here. I hate stressing him, and it doesn't do wonders for my stress level either! I'm just trying to make his world bigger, but right now I feel like giving up and just letting him stay cage bound. Problem with that is then I feel guilty leaving him alone and I stop going outside because I'm sitting with him! I know you're not supposed to force them to do anything they don't want, but bottom line, I have to be able to handle him in case of an emergency. btw, as I type, he's sitting on his perch one foot tucked up, grinding his beak! At least one of us seems to be feeling ok! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nychsa Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Hi there Acappella, I'm so sorry you're feeling so discouraged You know, today while I was researching another topic, I came across this article. You may find it of interest given the dynamic you and Dorian are going through. It discusses a kind of habitual tendency that both Grey and human get into with these battles of the will... hope it helps a little - but I hope you guys can work it out.. hang in there!!! ((hugs))) to you and Dorian. http://www.africangreys.com/articles/other/bringbaby.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siobha9 Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 That is a great article, "It's ok its just the pipes!" How sweet! If I were you I would use the opportunity to get his cage the way you want it. Since he has already seen everything you are planning on putting into it anyway. I wouldnt worry too much about being with him all the time, he needs some alone time too. And don't forget you can interact and amuse your grey without actually taking him out of the cage. I often sit beside my greys and chat with them, or play with them while they are still in the cage. That way, in Dorians case, he still has his security blanket, but he gets interaction too. Hang in there, you are doing great so far! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycos_mom Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Instead of forcing him to come out why not try Opening his cage door and say to him you can come out when you want too. then take a basket full of foot toys preferably some of his favorites and start playing with them and laugh like your having the best time with them then look at him and say something like you want to play too. But don't let him have any of the toys until he actually comes out of his cage, When he comes out and he will it may take a day or two. Play with him and the toys as well even if its just a simple game of fetch with you doing the fetching just make sure you pretend it lots of fun. You may find after awhile he will come out everytime you say you want to come out and play. as far as being afraid of everything I always tell Tyco to be a brave girl and reassure her that what I'm trying to introduse her to isn't going to hurt her I touch what ever it is to my nose just like I was beaking it because that what they do when they check things out and then I say see its not scarry be brave that a brave girl and if she shows me how she can be brave and touches what ever it is i'm trying to show her I get very excited and say yes good girl I knew you could do it what a brave girl. Tyco is not afraid of anything amy more. as long as I say its okay she trusts me enough to beleive me. Its really quite amazing what they will except with patiants and lots of talking to them will do I always ask her or tell her what I;m going to do before I do it no mattter how small and because of that it hasn't taken very long to bring her around. From being a scared Bar bering her feathers cage bound bird to being pretty well ajusted and happy bird and she no longer barbers which is great. <br><br>Post edited by: Tycos_mom, at: 2008/06/23 11:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyGreys Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Acappella You are doing a great job there even if you dont feel you are getting anywhere,2 steps forward, 1 step back Hang in there.The others have given good advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judygram Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 This will require lots of time and patience to overcome his reluctance to come out but it will happen, all in good time, just continue to do what you are doing and the advice given is real life experience so give it a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danmcq Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 The idea of using this opportunity to clean and fix up Dorian's cage, is a good one. Your plan to let him watch and basically be a part of it, is also good. If you can video the move into the new cage as mentioned, that would be great! Looking forward to hearing how all progresses. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 Thanks everyone. We both woke up in a better mood this morning. Here he sits in my office eating his breakfast while I type. It's another sunny day so I am going to take apart his main cage and take it outside for a good clean & let him watch the whole thing. I guess I made things sound a little worse than they are. Here are the things he DOES do. If I open his cage door and say "wanna come out for a walk?" he comes out and climbs around the outside of his cage. He also has a couple of exterior perches he likes to use. Once in a while (about once every couple of weeks) he surprises me by climbing down to the floor and having a short walkabout, during which I praise the heck out of him and make a big deal of it. Funny thing. If he's gone down to the floor on his own, he won't step up for me, but if he gets startled down he feels in need of a rescue and steps up like an angel! Pat, he still doesn't have a clue what to do with a foot toy. I sit on the floor and play with some, toss them around, beak them, even let the cat bat them around (Jac loves the IKEA abacus I got at a yard sale, don't worry just paws, not mouth) That switch hasn't flipped for Dorian yet. He has recently been trying new foods like millet and Avi Cakes if I pretend to eat them first and, like you said, don't let him have them right away! So I'm hopeful he'll soon make the same connection with foot toys. Anyway, I'm off to take apart his cage and take it, and him, outside for a while. I'll take pictures of the new set-up when I'm done and let you know if he goes in. Wish me luck and thanks for the encouragement guys! Marguerite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImagoX Posted June 23, 2008 Share Posted June 23, 2008 Be careful what you wish for... I'd LOVE it of my gray would stay on his cage, actually. :whistle: I splurged for a nice one with a play gym on top, but all Dexter wants to do when I let him out is climb down on the floor so he can chew my couch, get behind the TV to beak the power cords (yikes!) and chase the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycos_mom Posted June 27, 2008 Share Posted June 27, 2008 It sounds like your making great progress with Dorian just think about how far you've come since you got him and then it won't be so dicourgeing. your doing a great job and Dorian is obviously likeing you and trusting you allot they all get stubborn from time to time but in the end you'll have the bestest friend in the world so hang in there with him and do what you can and I'm sure thing will just keep getting better and better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 I'm sorry to hear you were having a bad time. It's going on a year that I've had Klaus and I'm getting the feeling that things go in phases - kind of like they do with human children. Klaus is slowly but surely coming out of the "velcro" stage where he couldn't be out without being ON me. Sounds like fun, but really isn't, trust me... So, while I don't have any direct advice for what you're going through, my two cents is: This too shall pass. Sounds like you are very caring, by the way and that you are doing a great job! (Can't argue with beak grinding...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 OK guys, I'm a tecno novice, but here's my attempt to show you a video of what it's like to try to get Dorian out of or off of a cage. This is after an afternoon outside in his small cage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyGreys Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 nothing showing Acappella ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 OK, here's another try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 WooHoo, success, and it only took me 4 hours to do! I don't know why the audio went so tinney sounding when I edited it, but at least you have the visual now. This was after a few hours outside in the afternoon, and I was trying to transfer him into his main cage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M2MM Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 You are being very calm & patient, but pushy (IMO.) His body language is saying to me: "My turf, back off, leave me alone!" I realize that he's been doing this for quite some time, but it will take time and a different approach to get him to come out willingly. Have you read Barbara Heidenreich's book, The Parrot Problem Solver? If not, I believe it would really help you with this. Her methods are all positive reinforcement based but they do take time to implement (no quick "easy" fixes here). They are based on parrot psychology, so they should work on any/all parrots regardless of their history. I understand your desire to have him step up while in his cage, as it's important, especially in an emergency. With Kumiko, I give him a choice to step up or not. If he says no (in his refusal) then I leave the door open and walk away, more often than not this motivates him to come out on his own in a hurry. He doesn't want me to leave the room, thus leaving him alone. Does Dorian fuss when you leave the room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyGreys Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 After viewing the video i too would be inclined to leave the door open & let Dorian come out on his own accord,he doesnt look comfortable with you offering your hand & asking him to step up from inside the cage,he is obviously getting angry.Try placing a treat just out of reach to encourage him to come out.Once he was out he seemed fine being asked to step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zpyder Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 I watched the video and noticed a miscommunication. You ask him to step up and when you think he is going to bite you, you move your hand away. It is confusing to him and then he feels no confidence in you. I would go slow with him. Go offer him a treat, leave it in his bowl and walk away. Let him get the treat and then repeat this a few times a day. After a few times offer him a treat from your hand, let him take it and walk away. Then after a few times offer him a treat but put your other hand in the way so he has to step up on your hand to get the treat. After he takes the treat put him back on his perch and walk away. I would keep this up and add in the command step up when you offer the treat. You will have to be patient and wait for him to make the steps towards you. This will change his mind about you. That you won't always go in his cage to demand something. They like to be asked permission, just like you to get in their space. They also like to know what you are asking to feel confident to be with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acappella Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 M2MM, I've got the book you mentioned on order. One thing this video doesn't show is that Dorian actually spends most of his day wandering around the outside of his cage, or perched on one of his exterior perches. He is no more willing to step up from the outside than he is from the inside. LMG, it's like he's turned letting go of his cage into a big fear in his head. He is fine once he's away from it. I have videos and pictures of him sitting on a table top perch eating and talking away, happy as a pig in, well, you know:P I was hoping that with repetition he'd start to remember that being away from his cage is fun, but the intial battle isn't getting any better. On the contrary, now he just hears the words 'step', 'outside' or 'adventure' and he retreats to a corner shaking. He does make a fuss when I leave the room, first contact calls, then getting more and more hysterical. However, he doesn't want to come with me, he wants my butt back where he is!:angry: That's why I tried to push the issue a bit. If I'm working in any part of the house other than his room, or if I'm outside, he just calls and calls the whole time, and not in a meek way! Where's the line between respecting his space and letting him be the boss? Zpyder, I've tried what you suggest. There's no treat that I've found yet that he wants badly enough to let go of his cage to move onto my hand, although he clearly knows what step-up means. (I just bought some NutriBerries. If he figures he likes them, I'll reserve them only for training) He must also feel pretty safe when he's on my hand, or else he wouldn't stand one footed to chew on his other foot the way he does, would he? I try to 'take the bite, and I have the hands to prove it:ohmy: but sometimes reflex happens too fast to listen to the brain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nychsa Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Hi there Acapella, I would tend to agree with Zpyder - you are putting your hand in, but you are then lowering your hand and I too seem Dorian getting mixed signals from that. I don't think you're being pushy. When I took Bella to our avian vet in Maryland, I asked him if I should take her out of her cage for him (she has a travel cage that is maybe a smidgin smaller than the cage you have. He said "not necessary". He opened the cage, and then with one swoop he very confidently put his hand in and put his two fingers confidently in front of her belly for her to step up on, he said "step up" and she did! I'm not sure in the video I'm seeing you being confident about having him step up. In fact, you seem a bit cautious (I understand! I wouldn't want to get bitten either!) and you're pulling back and down after briefly telling him to step up. Does this make sense? Cheers! Terri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zpyder Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 My mom has the same problem as you with Winston, he used to be her bird. He refuses to step up and he does know the command. When you are not confident you reflect that in your actions. I can see that on your video and if I can see it so can your bird. You need to show more leadership in your actions. Not leadership in the sense of dominance but leadership in the sense that you have a plan and you know what you are doing. I don't think he is afraid of you but that you have not shown to him the confidence he needs to feel safe going with you and listening to your requests. A step up command is a big thing for a bird, they are prey and we are predators. They have to trust you to be able to that with confidence. Any kind of doubt on your part will cause them to doubt you. It is not about finding a treat they like, it is about the relationship. You cannot fool them. By giving them something special and without demands you are telling them that you would like to be a part of their flock. There is no treat in the world that will override trust. It's about your actions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwibarb12 Posted July 15, 2008 Share Posted July 15, 2008 i agree with terri - you do appear a bit timid when asking him to step up. I really never gave Beckette a choice - i would put my hand in and pretty much demand that she step up. The other thing i would do is have something in my other hand to distract her if she looked as if she was going to bite. Just to be clear - i got bit - but not giving her a choice was the way to go for me. I also let her decide on other things- like, if i was going to the bedroom, i would tell her what i was going to do, and offer to take her. if she stepped up fine, if not, i would go do whatever. The way i look at it, its kind of like raising your kids - you choose your battles. Stepping up from the cage was one i was going to win, no biting was another, and the rest we negotiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanibird Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Hi Acapela, I read your blogs and felt so badly for you and Dorian!! Are things better yet? Hang in there, it will be so worth it! Lanibird (Janine) :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now