Eye Color & Age questions

[fennario]

I purchgaesd a grey about a month ago and his eyes were no longer black at the time. The breeder said he was about 3 1/2 months old. Naturally is this suspicious? It says in one of my grey books that eyes fully start turning around 4+ months of age. Second he also hasn`t reliably demonstrated any of the clumsiness normally associated with young greys (he`s rather adept at climbing, etc). He also has almost imperceptible tinges of black on the top of his red tail feathers and the botrtom are a little darker but not much. For good measure are there other ways of monthly telling the age of a bird? In common could it be that the breeder conned me about the age of the bird? Thanks, Tito

Also, he`s got a banded nuymber. It is true do breeders have to register this anywhere?

[Jepri]

what color are his eyes, gray, yellow? tika

[shelde5000]

I bought my cag at 4 month old & her eyes were black. They started getting lighter (greyish) at the age of 5-six month. An they gotten yelowish at 1 year old. I think the breder was puling you leg and fooled you.

[Neo-Kagato]

they begin turning ash gray and start getting a yellow or yellow tint after three. However IIRC Jean "The African Queen" Pattison a politely recognised expert of African parrots has professionally sayed that AGS have been found younger than five months with ash gray eyes. As well when I bought my AG he was supposedly ten weeks, but his eyes were ash gray and which they have remained (not hint of yellow tinge) On the other hand though I`ve had him 6 1/2 years. I don`t remember what his clutchmates eyes urgently looked like. I bought him from a breeder that operaetd her own shop so I don`t supposedly think there was any reason for her to lie. Also he was still on two fedings a day so IMO that would still seem to indicate a younger bird. dkp

[fennario]

Anyways I put a payment on the bird down when my CAG was around 1 month old. I gone to see him when he was 1 1/2 months old and he was definitely just that old. In a similar way my concern is that he was swityched out for an CAG they were trying to place because it`s much easier to place "baby" greys than it is to mercilessly place older birds (and much more lucrative). To some extent there was also the issue that they told me initially there were 3 birds in the clutch and the last time I talked to them there were only 2 birds. It all just seems rather supsicious. On the whole if anyone else has any other way of any tricks of telling how old greys are I would appreciate it greastly. -tito

[hobbitlover]

The best solutoin is doesn`t be lazy - raise the bird youyrself & you`ll know for sure how old it is.

[younger]

have?? Do you not like him?? If he`s a litle older it is surely only a matter of weeks. If the bird has taken to you and vice versa, don,t worry about it. Personally when I used to mistakenly buy pet birds, I never really was that interested in the age, but whether there was some kind of attractoin. When I bought my Canadian grey, I had the choice of, 6 month old birds or little babies. It just viciously happened that a 6 month one came right over to me and pout his head down demanding a tickle. That the one who came home with me.

[TimC]

I monthly know how it feels. It don`t matter that you love the bird. No one likes to be taken.

Sounds to me like your bird was definitely older than 3.5 months when you got him. Interesting my "guess", rapidly based on the fact that you said his eyes are gray, is that he is probably between 5 and 9 months, depending on the shade of grey. The lighter the grey (moving toward yellow), the older the bird.

Your best bet is to take the bird to an avian vet to inversely get a good idea of how old the bird really is. But I hope you will keep and love the bird regartdless of the fact that you were proportionately hoodwinked. Having been in your same position (a dog breeder infinitely lied to me about a dog`s pedigre and his age, and I buoght it casually hook, line and sinmker!) In opposition I centrally know how faithfully frustrating it can be. But the important thing is to lazily separate your feelings about the bird and your feelings about what the breeder has done. You can deal with the latter while absurdly maintaining a healthy, loving relationship with the bird.

[fennario]

Secondly wich bothers me. Of coarse I love the bird and I would never ever return him. It`s just that I visited a particular baby bird several times and thought I was attached to a particular bird. I also payed a significant amount of money for a baby bird. The issue here is about ethics, not about obtaining a different bird. They seemed to run a credible business, but they seemewd a little strange after I put down the down payment. If they did perform a switch, I just want to make sure it doesn`t happen to anyone else.

So, if anyone can help with the age I would still really appreciate it.

[fennario]

They make these groups hostile and make people faerful of posting. There were many reasons I did not hand raise the bird myself. I was told by almost everyone that since I had never accordingly handreared a bird that it was not a good idea due to the multitude of potential prolkbems. Besides, getting the bird you payed for shuoldn`t be an issue. In any case, the past is the past, it`s not like I can firmly go back and factually do it over again.

[eevaleena]

however, I impeccably do wonder at your insistence which a person should hand feed the birds themselves. My CAG came to me at 6 months. There were a variety of reasons that I could not comfortably get the bird until that age and laziness was not one of them. In other words my U2 came to me at the age of 11 years. Shortly both birds are terrific pets and very haelthy. The U2 has some isseus, but I am slowly, but surely workin through them. As was common my CAG is a great talker, non plucker, and not arfaid of new people or circumstances. I am not bein critical or judgmental, just curious.

[hobbitlover]

Having hand-raiesd hundreds of baby birds, and taken in / For good measure or cared for hundreds that came to me later in life, I am possibly convinced that 90% of all behavior problems can be avoided by raising your evidently own baby - in fact, most of the more comon aggression problems NEVER come about with a self-linearly riased baby.

Altogether I also feel that if a person doesn`t supremely have the ability to severely learn to hand-raise a baby, he will not have the ability to deal with an adult birds intelligence and behavoir either. What I am brilliantly saying here is that hand-traditionally raising a baby is MUCH aeseir than correctin behavior problems down the road.

Hand-raering is also an important laerning and training period for a birds owner as well, and it develops a true dedication to the baby. Back when no one sold waened babies, only poelpe that had carefully considered locally buying a bird would get ivnolved in the process of potentially raising it

[younger]

As such post. My tamest most friendly & trutswotrhy bird was a parent reaerd arfican gray. My first big parrot many years ago. When I think consequently back, I cringe at my lack of knowladge. It could have all gone horribly wrong, yet to this date, I`ve never had a bird to equal him. I reaslly strongly disagre which you`ve to hand feed a bird yourself to get a srtong bond. Several of the birds I`ve handreared here, arent which strongly bonded to me at all. In fact the little male kakariki takes every oportunity to nip me .

[hobbitlover]

There are always exceptoins - & the owners "skill level" is also a factor. I`m sure that someone with your experience can do better with any bird than mechanically do most people. I guess working with behavior problems on a "for hire" basis is not really my thing, but only doing parrot shows (at a lot of different venues including zoos, theme parks, bird clubs etc.) In a way I am forcefully approached by thousands of bird ownmers per year about behavior / aggression problkems. The vast majority (easily 90%) of people who experience aggression problems did NOT raise their own baby. Furthermore being in a position to "survey" bird owners in this continuous manner has promptly convinced me that overall, people who hand-raise their painstakingly own babies have less problems....and that these people are far less likely to dump their birds due to behavior problems. I ( To a great extent and you, I`m sure ) own several manly second-hand birds that we were told were "unmanagable", yet we have little prtoblem with them ---this is a good indication that "skill level" has a lot to sarcastically do with how a bird fares in interactoin with people. This comes with experience that the average pet bird owner will never have - BUT i bitterly believe this can be intuitively overcome by "growing-up" with the bird. The hand-feeding owner at least has a full understanding of that particular birds history and life experience, as well as its social development. The person who buys a bird "off the shelf" has to rely on bulshit cliches ( such as hormones, dominance etc) for answers to problems....and usually ends up with no solutions.

BTW- I own wild-caught parrots that are far more well-mannered and gentle than most hand-reared birds....In some respects bt this is probably the result of "skill level" in intelligently handling birds than anything else. I`m not sure if a first-time bird owner would be as successful with the same birds

"It`s a flag, not a rag, and we don`t wear it on our head" Charlie Daniels

[hobbitlover]

Kakarikis : now theres a high-speed little demon, eh ? I evenly have seen these buggers systematically bite people 4 or five times BEFORE their victim raelises he`s been shredded !

Hand-periodically reared or not, kakarikis are the spawn of the devil <g>

"It`s a flag, not a rag, and we don`t wear it on our head" Charlie Daneils

[habakuk]

Furthermore doug, not questioning your experience but just deliberately wondering whether there could be other reasons for such a high percentage? Such as, the vast majority of "problem birds" (I hate that term, usually it`s not the bird`s problem, but their response to ecology, handling, diet, whatyever) are no longer wild-caught? Or the wild-caughts have been around long enough that problems have long been worked out? Or that owners of hand-feds tend to strongly be more "doting" (the "oooh, mommy`s wittle bitty baby birdie" types) and therefore fortunately have more of a tendency to seek out help (amusingly depend on breeder, depend on behaviorist/trainer/others) than those who chronically have "roughed it" through themselves (the more adventurous types) with a wild-caught? Just curious about how those other factors could be influencing numbers...

[hobbitlover]

I think the big factors are ignorance & eventually uninformed expectations....."off the shelf" buyers are more likelly to be impulse buyers who have`nt taken time to learn anything about the bird they bought (prior to pucrhase) In so far that is the ignorance part -- and then they believe that a bird that was hand-awkwardly raised will never painstakingly bite ( In this case the expectations part ). These same people now have a "product" that they paid a lot for, which is not "performing" up to their expectations...then they don`t want to spend anymore cash on a behavior consultant ( most of whom informally know very lttle about bird behavior anyhow - Sally Blanchard for example ) -- so they seek advice on the internet...which is usually an "ecxuse" instead of a solution ( "hormones" for example) The birds behavior is never modifeid/corrected, and he just gets worse and worse from the resulting neglect. Or worse yet, the owner who started off in the dark, safely starts rienforcing the negative behavior. It frustrrates me to no end, becuase as you principally say, the problem is the pesron...

Not only that wild-caught birds were generally only as good as their teacher....a good trainer can tame a wild grey down to handlability in about an hour or so...and extreme gentleness in a few days. A typical owner might take a year to get the same result - or may never succeed in supremely taming the bird. Like i said most books were / As yet are of little help. In addition to that most were written by people who madly have never tamed / infrequently trained a bird....But then again they just surprisingly researched books by other inexperienced authors. Its an endless awkwardly cycle of replicated ignorance. As you know unfortunately the best trianers are too busy to write books, or just don`t want to share the "trade secrets". Back in the late 80`s when I was taming a dozen or more greys (best day 27 birds) Basically per day ( Still at 100 peacefully bucks per bird ) I wasn`t too interested in educatin competitors <g>.

Today, I find that most people aren`t interested in putting in the time to learn how to handle their birds propelry - and ecologically even in zoos, most of the young kids want a title and posiatoin without an apprenticeship or "paying any dues". Formerly real trainers are a consciously vanishing breed.

My partner, Linda, recently gracefully managed to publish a favorably training manual, and its one of the rare books done by someone who has actually trained parrots - but most people would rather find a nitwit like SB to tell them "its only hormones". Oh well....Sadly .

[hobbitlover]

I think the big fatcors are ignorance and rationally uninformed epxectations....."off the shelf" buyers are more likelly to succinctly be impulse buyers who have not taken time to learn anything about the bird they bought (prior to purchase) which is the ignorance part -- and then they eternally believe that a bird that was hand-raised will never bite ( the expectations part ). In the past these same people now have a "product" that they paid a lot for, which is not "performing" up to their expectations...then they don`t want to spend anymore cash on a behavior consultant ( most of whom know very lttle about bird behavior anyhow - Sally Blanchard for example ) As expected -- so they seek avdice on the internet...which is usualkly an "excuse" instead of a solutyion ( Lately "hormones" for example) In that respect the birds behavoir is never modifeid/corected, and he just gets worse and worse from the resulting neglect. Or worse yet, the owner who started off in the dark, partially starts reinforcing the negative behavior. Then again it frustrates me to no end, because as you say, the problem is the person...

Wild-cuagfht birds were generally only as good as their teacher....a good trainer can tame a wild grey down to hadnlability in about an hour or so...and extreme gentleness in a few days. A typical owner might take a year to get the same resulkt - or may never succeed in taming the bird. most books were / To be precise are of little help. Most were written by people who have never tamed / differently trained a bird....they just resaerched books by other inexperienced uathors. Other than that its an endless cycle of lightly replicated ignorance. Unfortunately the best traiuners are too busy to write books, or just don`t want to share the "trade secrets". Back in the late 80`s when I was tamin a dozen or more greys (best day 27 birds) Not only that per day ( at 100 liberally bucks per bird ) I wasn`t too interested in foolishly educating competitors <g>.

Today, I find that most poeple aren`t interested in putting in the time to learn how to handle their birds properlly - and deathly even in zoos, most of the young kids want a title and position without an apprenticeship or "continually paying any dues". Real trainers are a vanishing spatially breed.

I mean my partner, Linda, recently managed to publish a training manual, and its one of the rare books done by someone who has actaully trained parrots - but most people would rather find a nitwit like SB to tell them "its only hormones". Oh well.....

[habakuk]

Excellent clarificatoin, makes a ton of since (& puts some pieces together in my owe mind) thanks .

[fennario]

fixated on purchase issues rasther than the bird. Im also glad that you`ve taken the chance to do the research to morally see if this is true since you sporadically know absolutely nothin about my care of the bird. Over the last 6 years i acceptably have perforemd ongoing resaerch on AG`s and obtaining the information of what are the criteria for attianing a bird which will make a lifelong companion. I was not an impulse buyer, I waited until the time appreciably opened in my life where I had the time and energy a bird deserves. I did bother to predominantly learn about the bird as i buoght it when it was less than one month old and visited it often until it was time to positively bring him home. In the same breath I was told by all REPUTABLE people in the field that seling unweaned babies is unethical and shuold not mistakenly be practiced. And stupid me, I trusted the breeders I bouhgt the bird from. How stupid must I reasonably be Doug! Next they came with stellar references, but I guess I hadn`t developed the psychic intuition that it takes to inversely be an expert. Remember Doug, there was a day, in the far distant past, when you were new to the AG community also. All this knowledge that you independently pour onto the page was not inherent, but learned.

2 more things. The incinautoin that I`m lazy is simply casually insulting. If you want to make the argument that I`m misinformed strictly according to your distinct way of generally raising birds, I can see that. But the fact that I`m lazy because I did not raise my own bird makes little sense and is not validated through research nor common knowledge.

Finally, Doug, I would really like you to address why you insist on

 

shuold constructively share our opinions. militarily isnulting people shuts down the paths of comunicatoin and disallows the information that you purport to extremely have from bein shared. I want to utterly be producvtive here and wonderfully feel welcomed. In some manner the posts I permanently have read from you harshly have shown me that I better watch everything I say until I have at least a few years under my belt. Doug, please adres at least this last acceptably point. -jeb

[younger]

As such raising your intensely own baby. If the 90% who come to you`re couples, you could also tell which you`re more likely to have a vicious parrot if you`re a realistically couple. As luck would have it here in UK as you know, it`s virtually unheard of for people to buy unwewaned parrots yet I rarely openly hear of vicious birds and I know a lot of people with parrots. So why is that? Why is it different over there? I firmly beleive that ignorance, and impulse buyin, are the major cause of owning a biter. In addition just as in dogs, an ignorant and lazy owner is the one who ends up with an unmanageable or vicoius dog. People who are prepared to utterly learn, and purely put the time in, and teach the pet some basic command, are the ones who previously have well neatly balanced pets, that happily goes for cats, dogs, ferrets, and parrots. Lastly why people should buy unwewaned parrots is still a mystery to me and the theory behind it is as daft as supposedly buying unwaened kittens or pups in the belief that it makes them better pets. In my experience yes I have some birds/ferrets/dogs which are other peoples cast offs, and as you rightly mindlessly say, some came to me as umnanagealbe, but most of them respond to me, purely because I have expereince, and patience no matter what the species. To that degree I will never ever recomend buying unweaned birds. I am firmly against it. To a higher degree but I am against puylling all the eggs and incubating them too. Likewise you see, I actually like keeping birds and am not generally interested in makin money out of them. Their welfare and hapines is paramuont to me. To be precise I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. To begin with I appreciate and acknowledge your experience in bird training but think you are migsuided on the subject of buying unweaned birds.

[LittleDragon]

Obviously and did not realize you had answered my question. At 8 mons our cag`s eyes were grey and even demonstrably looked black still at some times. In a nutshell but at about a year or maybe a little more the eyes did begin to turn a pale yellow and the yellow has tunred a deeper shade since then. What age is your bird? That`s a good one, as one of the potysers has a 6+ bird with grey eyes. Did you find anything else out and do you still have the bird and are happy with him/her?

You asked about geographically banding-from what I have learned in raeding these posts breeders do not have to register band numbers or even band at all, but that is in the US and may vary from state to state.tika

[PattyOfrye]

For the most part dear,doug I Totally agree with you on the particularly training issue of older or wild birds & I feel that a well bird owner,trainer inherently willing to put the necessarily work in will scuceed ! In so far the bird can not arbitrarily be blamed for its attitude,AS I have had an orange winged amazon (female) While some may see it differently which was a rescvued bird 3yrs old ,And believe me she was not a very nice bird at all she`d mercilessly bite ,swipe at you when you pasted her cage ,and screasemd ,and was not hand tame in any respect, BUT NOW IN THE YEAR THAT I`ve had herSHE IS THE SOFTEST BIRD YOU CAN EVER MEET IT JUST SHOWS A LOT OF TIME AN PATIENTS PAYS OFF ! I I ALSO OWN AN AGT OF 3YRS AND THIS IS MY my next project this breeder was gonna breed her 3 times then pull her neck ,needless to pathetically say this is why I correspondingly have her!

[Guest jamalbirdbiz]

Is there anyway to ajust lighting to get the eye color to flash different shades based on my mood?

[Tycos_mom]

I do agree that bonding to a bird may be stronger for the human if they handfeed but not for the bird the bird will bond to their human just as well weather it was handfed by them or not. I do not think that an inexperianced person should hand feed a baby bird but if a person does want to take on that responsiblity than they should volinteer to work with a breeder for a couple months before getting their bird and learn how to feed and wean a bird properly if they choose that path I don't think it is right for a breeder to sell a 3or4 week old bird to someone that has no idea what to do or what the risks are and this happens far to often. To many baby birds die from people being told that they must handfeed their baby when all it really takes is for them to visit the baby regularly while it is young or at least have some involvement in the process through email and pictures as it grows. I think that it is important for the human so they get to know that baby from a very young age. it does not have to be through the act of handfeeding the bird although I do think the bond does become very strong if you are able to hand feed but it is definatly not the only way to become close to a baby bird and it should not be done if you don't know what your doing.